I'm Looking for a Guide

[Hurt]

I wanted to give you an answer from fresh experience so I spent some time trying to make this seeing happen again. As you can probably guess, that was not effective. Speaking from past experiences: everything else is left. The body is still the body, the mind is still the mind, and the world is still the world, but it is no longer seen from a personal perspective which was only ever imagined.

[Ewoud]

Very well, you might take it easy for this day and tomorrow if you like. Just go and have a walk in the park or in nature if you might. Just see how things happen. Are there thoughts necessary for all this happening in nature?

Tell me something as you like, if not, we can have contact tomorrow or monday.

[Hurt]

I went on a few walks and noticed some things. No, thoughts are not necessary for everything happening in nature, all these organisms are just going along doing their thing without doubt, anxiety, or willpower. Then a thought popped into my head: "are thoughts necessary for what I do?" And I wasn't quite sure how to answer that at first.

Thoughts appear and disappear (from where and to where, I have no idea) and are followed by other thoughts with varying speed. Sometimes their content will be related to the previous thought, other times it is completely inane (thinking about a movie when I'm looking at a tree). For quite a long time I've assumed that thoughts drive physical action, and that thoughts cause other thoughts, but now I don't believe this. Everything just happens, and thoughts that reference these events are constantly popping in and out.

[Ewoud]

Good to notice!

Have you seen through the illusion that you ARE or HAVE a separate self? Is there any doubt?

[Hurt]

Wow, alright. When I first sat down I read your question and looked for any remaining doubt. I couldn't find any, but it felt different somehow than the previous times where I would fail to find any hard doubt and say "No there is no doubt, but I still don't quite feel it really." There were just no more questions, and that was it. I felt a bit confused, like "this can't be it; nothing happened, no big bang and chorus of angels". I read the first part of your question again and I just couldn't stop laughing; the idea of a separate self was the joke of all jokes at that moment, and everything was fine.

I sat still for a few minutes, and now I again feel like I've always felt. The confusing thing was that in that moment of no doubt, I didn't have the sense that I was any different than I had always been! It is so frustrating to have that firm conviction that there are no questions remaining right there in the palm of my hand, and then *bam* it's gone.

[Ewoud]

It is so frustrating to have that firm conviction that there are no questions remaining right there in the palm of my hand, and then *bam* it's gone.

Could you elaborate this one? I think I know what you mean, but just to be sure.

[Hurt]

Words start to fail me when I try and talk about this stuff, but I'll give it a shot. For a short time I saw clearly that I don't (and never did) exist; seeing that was a huge relief. Now I no longer see it clearly. I don't understand how I can see "ah yes, this is how it is" with what seemed like such certainty, and then go back to being unsure of that reality.

[Ewoud]

I don't understand how I can see "ah yes, this is how it is" with what seemed like such certainty, and then go back to being unsure of that reality.

Is "that reality" different from "this reality"?

Is there, now, in the direct experience actually something to see?

[Hurt]

Is "that reality" different from "this reality"?

No. When I see that self doesn't exist, I see that it never existed.

Is there, now, in the direct experience actually something to see?

What I have found is that there is nothing to see (no 'I', no 'self', nothing to attain to 'upgrade' myself). You asked me to look for the self, and I could find no trace of it when I really dug into experience. When I accept that fact, searching stops and there is a great relief. Somehow, however, the conviction in this realization fades. I'm not sure if there is doubt hiding someplace I've been unwilling to look, or what. I mention that because reading through the Gatecrashers book, I noticed that fear was a common experience in the people who went through this sort of investigation; that is something I have not had to deal with yet.

[Ewoud]

Thanks for your honesty again!

What I have found is that there is nothing to see (no 'I', no 'self', nothing to attain to 'upgrade' myself).

You asked me to look for the self,

and I could find no trace of it when I really dug into experience.

Is it something you have to dig into in order to see?

When I accept that fact,

This make it sound like you need to believe and accept something. Is that true?

searching stops and there is a great relief.

Is there something to find? You don't need to search, but you can still look.

Somehow, however, the conviction in this realization fades.

Is it some sort of state you need to be into?

I'm not sure if there is doubt hiding someplace I've been unwilling to look, or what. I mention that because reading through the Gatecrashers book, I noticed that fear was a common experience in the people who went through this sort of investigation; that is something I have not had to deal with yet.

Some people might experience fear, but not everyone. Also seeing is different for everyone, there is no sort of standard experience you have to go through in order to see something. For everyone it is different. Some people experience similar things, but there are no requirements or conditions that go before seeing. Also, I see it more a seeing false believes than actually seeing something.

Please explain about the doubt. Are there expectations about this seeing? What do you expect to happen with the seeing?

[Hurt]

Is it something you have to dig into in order to see?

By "dig into" I mostly just meant examine my memories. I can see that 'I' isn't in present experience, but some of your previous questions also prompted me to search past experiences, and see that it never existed there either (except as a story).

Is there something to find? You don't need to search, but you can still look.

No; like you said, the fact that there is nothing to see seems to be the whole point of this investigation. I *can* look all I want and not find myself. I'm sure I could look for the rest of my life and not find a trace. At some point I have to stop looking and stop acting like 'I' is out there somewhere.

This make it sound like you need to believe and accept something. Is that true?

That is how it seems to me, yes. Is that an indication that I'm still only getting this on an "intellectual level" (which seems to amount to not getting it at all)?

Is it some sort of state you need to be into?

When I'm buying into the story of 'Me' it sure feels that way. A state is the only way I can conceptualize this seeing, if I really need to do so in order to talk about it. Right now it feels like something that 'I' need to 'get'. Other times that is seen as an absurd idea; who would 'get' it? What would there be to 'get', anyway? It's just the way things are, always were, and always will be. In those moments it doesn't feel like a state that I need to hold onto.

Please explain about the doubt. Are there expectations about this seeing? What do you expect to happen with the seeing?

Before we got into this questioning I had some vague fantasies like "having no self will mean I don't get sad anymore and have infinite patience". If I still have expectations about the results of seeing that there is no self, they are subtle and unconscious. As for the doubt: I really can't put it into words. I tried a few times to type something about it, but it ends up feeling like a lie or nonsense. The best I can say is that it feels like a haze in my head and generalized anxiety.

A thought I just had was that my unexamined expectations of what happens when one sees that the person does not exist could be getting in the way of really seeing it thoroughly. Like it may be right there in front of me, and I think "no, that can't be it. It doesn't feel like 'x'".

[Ewoud]

Dear Bruce,

Thanks for your message.

Lets do a little exercise about the reality of things. Consider the following things:
1. a table
2. an university
3. batman

Is there a difference in reality between them? If so, please describe it for me.

Have a good day,

Ewoud

[Hurt]

Dear Bruce,

Thanks for your message.

Lets do a little exercise about the reality of things. Consider the following things:
1. a table
2. an university
3. batman

Is there a difference in reality between them? If so, please describe it for me.

Have a good day,

Ewoud

I have to admit, my first thought was "finally something I can wrap my head around!"A table is the most real of the 3. I have one right here in front of me, and its a big slab of wood that I can manipulate in any number of ways. While the wood it is made up is very real, the label 'table' is just a thought. Its a name that I've assigned to a little cut-off piece of reality to make this particular piece easier to think about and interact with. A university is made up of buildings, students, staff, and lots of other things; it is less real than the table, as all those things making up the university can change (the buildings are demolished and rebuilt, students graduate, staff retire) while we still think of it as being the same university. Batman is the least real of the 3; everything composing Batman are thoughts (he wears a cool costume, he beats up criminals). I can't find Batman outside of thought.

To summarize: a table is a label that refers to a constant arrangement of matter, a univeristy is a more complicated label that can refer to changing arrangements of matter as well as concepts (a school identity, a legal entity), and Batman is a label (a thought) that refers only back to other thoughts and does not reference some real object out there in reality. It's sort of like the table is a body, the university is a mind, and Batman is the 'I'.

[Ewoud]

You know it. Tell me what it's about.

[Hurt]

I get it, but I don't live it. I can certainly wax philosophical about this for a long time, but my behavior (inside and out) mostly does not reflect that I have seen the unreality of self, and the process of this illusion's creation in thought and memory. Part of me wonders if this is simply a gradual process of reversing the inertia of a mind that has woven the I-story for over 20 years, while another part says "no, this is about one moment of real courage and genuine seeing." I'm reminded of one of the conversations in the Gatecrashers book I read before posting this thread, where a guy stated that he'd gladly walk around a mountain 20 times if that were all it took to obtain liberation. That's difficult, but this is hard. I'm not sure what to do here; if there is something to drop, I don't know what it is or how to drop it.

I say all this because I don't want to accidentally misrepresent where I am at in this investigation. Thank you again for your time.