Would really love to be guided!!

[kvotski]

Hi Sita,

Awesome name. My mother was born in sitamadhi ( sita's birthplace).

Two insights on you and the mind. First stop fighting. Struggle is anti-peace. Go to any spiritual practice, peace and silence is at the heart of it. Love the I, love the mind and agree with both.

After you have done that look if they are distinctly different? Tell me what you find. Are you mistaken when you think you are the mind?

I want you to do that touch experiment again. This time blank the thoughts just the sensations. Now look to find out if the smooth hair is any different from bunch of silky threads? If the pliable skin feels any different from a soft or hard(if you are an athlete) object? Do this by focussing on things you touch. Then turn it around and see how your arm feels the fingers? Is it any different from brushing across a table?

Now tell me why you call any of these yours?

[sitasf]

Hi Sunil,

Awesome name. My mother was born in sitamadhi ( sita's birthplace).

Yes, I have always loved the name Sita too. I never knew where Sita's birthplace was - looks like it is in a beautiful area (Googled a map).

Two insights on you and the mind. First stop fighting. Struggle is anti-peace. Go to any spiritual practice, peace and silence is at the heart of it. Love the I, love the mind and agree with both.

Thank you for these insights - they seem possibly key as to why I have been experiencing life as a joyless struggle for the past few years. I have been seeing the mind as an enemy and the source of so much suffering. I do see that the mind seems to be attempting a protective function to protect "me" in some way. For example, when I am looking for evidence of the existence of a "me" it seems to attempt to distract me with a stream of ideas, doubts, (like a smokescreen of sorts), the arising of fear, etc. I will try to observe when I am struggling/fighting with it and attempt to make peace with it...agree with it. Thank you.

As I have looked within to watch the thoughts, working of the mind right now to "try on" this new attitude, a flood of tears has come. The only thought that I can associate with this emotional reaction is appreciation/gratitude for this little kindness, and the thought of how exhausted "I" am from all this inner struggle. Ready to "end the war" (more tears coming). Yearning to end this war and find some relief from the continuous struggle/find peace in here.

BTW, I awakened in the night last night with the familiar sensation I have called "fear" (prickly feeling in chest) and immediately looked to see if I could find the precipitating thought; I could not find any thought at all, but in the midst of this search I noticed that the fear had vanished. Interesting.

After you have done that look if they are distinctly different? Tell me what you find. Are you mistaken when you think you are the mind?

I assume you mean look to see if "I" and "my mind" are distinctly different? No, it seems that "I" is this collection of memories and the familiar sense of a self named Daria or Sita. This sense of "I" is associated with this body as "my body" (except that I have experienced that I am not this body at times). On the other hand, the mind seems to be the mechanism that draws memories of this "self", functions to reason (i.e., even though it "gets" that there is no evidence of a self other than these familiar memories and tendencies argues that this cannot be so, or is the mechanism that recognizes "oh, this is fear" and recalls that "Sunil said that thoughts always precede feelings" and searches for the thought that came before the fear, etc.). So, yes, I am mistaken when "I" think I am the mind. I still don't know what I am. That is the only honest statement at this point.

I want you to do that touch experiment again. This time blank the thoughts just the sensations. Now look to find out if the smooth hair is any different from bunch of silky threads? If the pliable skin feels any different from a soft or hard(if you are an athlete) object? Do this by focussing on things you touch. Then turn it around and see how your arm feels the fingers? Is it any different from brushing across a table?

No, the smooth hair is no different than a bunch of silky threads ... the pliable skin is no different from a soft object.

The arm (feeling the fingers) is not different from being brushed by an object except that the object I brushed it with was cooler in temperature. Otherwise no different, but I had to "disconnect" from the thoughts and only focus on sensations (not so easy initially).

Now tell me why you call any of these yours?

Good point Sunil. Why DO I call any of these mine?? It is just a habit that I have learned and repeated for a lifetime and never questioned...

Thank you. Truly grateful for your time and guidance Sunil.

Sita

[kvotski]

Hi Sita,

Great work.

example, when I am looking for evidence of the existence of a "me" it seems to attempt to distract me with a stream of ideas, doubts, (like a smokescreen of sorts), the arising of fear, etc. I will try to observe when I am struggling/fighting with it and attempt to make peace with it...agree with it.

As I have looked within to watch the thoughts, working of the mind right now to "try on" this new attitude, a flood of tears has come. The only thought that I can associate with this emotional reaction is appreciation/gratitude for this little kindness, and the thought of how exhausted "I" am from all this inner struggle. Ready to "end the war" (more tears coming). Yearning to end this war and find some relief from the continuous struggle/find peace in here.

Look again, if it isn't all thoughts into thoughts, some labeled as self and some as mind? Is there any need to make them separate at all? Do this again if these struggles aren't just more thoughts? Tears are excellent sign of being on the right path to freedom.

BTW, I awakened in the night last night with the familiar sensation I have called "fear" (prickly feeling in chest) and immediately looked to see if I could find the precipitating thought; I could not find any thought at all, but in the midst of this search I noticed that the fear had vanished. Interesting

]Interesting indeed. Could it be that fear itself was just a thought, some habitual response for something that happened in a dream that you don't remember? Try it in the waking state whenever a negative demotion rises. If previous experience repeats, the least that will happen is you will feel better.

No, it seems that "I" is this collection of memories and the familiar sense of a self named Daria or Sita. This sense of "I" is associated with this body as "my body" (except that I have experienced that I am not this body at times). On the other hand, the mind seems to be the mechanism that draws memories of this "self", functions to reason (i.e., even though it "gets" that there is no evidence of a self other than these familiar memories and tendencies argues that this cannot be so, or is the mechanism that recognizes "oh, this is fear" and recalls that "Sunil said that thoughts always precede feelings" and searches for the thought that came before the fear, etc.)

Read the above again and see that aren't you just labeling thoughts into memories and tendencies? No need to make it more complicated. In direct experience, not analysis. what i gather from your words here is that you do not find a difference.

But then as if to negate all of that you say.

So, yes, I am mistaken when "I" think I am the mind. I still don't know what I am.

so which one is it, is there a difference between mind and self? Do the pointing exercise for each and see if you can point to one at a different place.

The arm (feeling the fingers) is not different from being brushed by an object except that the object I brushed it with was cooler in temperature. Otherwise no different, but I had to "disconnect" from the thoughts and only focus on sensations (not so easy initially).

Good point Sunil. Why DO I call any of these mine?? It is just a habit that I have learned and repeated for a lifetime and never questioned..

.

Ah, good point. So is it possible that the whole I or mind or self or me just something that is a lifetime of habit?

You refer to a sense of self earlier. This sense wasn't there when you were born. Someone said you are Daria and then Sita. Aren't they both labels to which you respond?

Look at other "my" stuff. Traveling in a train, my seat, in a park my bench, my bus. Are they really yours or is it just extension of this habit?

[sitasf]

Hi Sunil,

Look again, if it isn't all thoughts into thoughts, some labeled as self and some as mind? Is there any need to make them separate at all? Do this again if these struggles aren't just more thoughts? Tears are excellent sign of being on the right path to freedom.

Yes, these struggles DO seem to be thoughts into thoughts when I look at them. I am not at all sure where they come from; I do not see any evidence that they are coming from a "self" but I am not sure that they are not coming from the mind. I just don't know really.

For example, I notice there is this tendency (learned habit) that arises (via thoughts) to do everything "perfectly" or "I" feel very uncomfortable, and it seems that no effort is ever "good enough" (for example when I am looking/doing self-inquiry). Then judgment thoughts (about what that means about "me") come (from the mind?) that bring more suffering (again about what this means about "me"). So it seems that it is thoughts into thoughts and there is such a lack of clarity about it all; in fact, the more I look, the more fuzzy and unclear all of it seems. Are they arising from the mind ... or? They just arise and I am not clear if they are coming from the mind or ? This has brought more distress (that perfection/judgment again - "I shouldn't be this way") and frustration, but ultimately seems to be all thoughts into thoughts. Where is the "I" in this? More thoughts about what this means to the "me" being judged, etc. It is all thoughts but ultimately I am not sure if they are coming from the mind or just arising somehow.

I guess there is no need to make them separate when viewed in this way - they are all just thoughts, and some apparently have more "kick" than others. But ultimately, all thoughts. No "I" here except this illusive entity that is seemingly being judged (via judgment thoughts) and is then seen as "failure" (judgment labeling thought) or "less than expected" (judgment labeling thought) or whatever. Interesting.

BTW, this is SO good to know (about tears being an excellent sign of the right path to freedom) as tears are arising all the time now for "no apparent reason." Often sudden passionate sobbing, deep grief feeling that comes and goes. Was feeling like "I" was going crazy! So this is encouraging indeed!

]Interesting indeed. Could it be that fear itself was just a thought, some habitual response for something that happened in a dream that you don't remember? Try it in the waking state whenever a negative demotion rises. If previous experience repeats, the least that will happen is you will feel better.

Yes! It seems that fear is a habitual learned response (that somehow "I" have been wired this way) likely from a thought/occurrence in a dream that I couldn't remember. The remembering part is difficult and I keep drawing blanks when I try to remember a preceding thought to an emotion - I will keep at it in waking and sleep states. I think this has the potential reveal a great deal.

Read the above again and see that aren't you just labeling thoughts into memories and tendencies? No need to make it more complicated. In direct experience, not analysis. what i gather from your words here is that you do not find a difference.

Yes, when I re-read what I wrote, it seems I have made it all so complicated with all these labeling thoughts ... trying too hard to "understand" it/"clean it up" when the truth is I don't (understand it). Period.

But then as if to negate all of that you say. So which one is it, is there a difference between mind and self? Do the pointing exercise for each and see if you can point to one at a different place.

I cannot "find" a self or the mind that I can point to in a place. I am very fuzzy as to whether the mind is the source of these thoughts that keep arising from somewhere, but I cannot locate the source of the thoughts and I cannot "find" the mind anywhere either. Honestly, I am not sure of the connection between thoughts and the mind so I think there is an assumption here of some kind. The truth is I am not sure of where or what the mind is but I can describe (as I have previously) what I believe (assumptions likely) to be its function as the reasoning faculty. For example, what is reasoning right now as I inquire? I "assume" it is my mind, but truthfully I don't know. And I don't know where the thoughts come from. And I don't know what the self is either. I don't know much of anything it seems! I am suspecting there are many assumptions operating here that have not been questioned and for which I don't really have actual answers. Yikes.

Ah, good point. So is it possible that the whole I or mind or self or me just something that is a lifetime of habit?

I can't see any other possibility here. The truth is I do not know what the whole "I" or mind or self or me is other than a bunch of assumptions I have not questioned. So what is making this deduction presently? Something seems to be reasoning and typing answers here ... I have no idea what it is! That is the only truthful statement I can make here!

You refer to a sense of self earlier. This sense wasn't there when you were born. Someone said you are Daria and then Sita. Aren't they both labels to which you respond?

Yes I can't see that this "familiar sense of self" was there when I was born but accumulated with memories, etc. and many unquestioned assumptions. Yes, these names are both labels (as well as many others "I" have accumulated since birth) that "I" respond to and have assumed that they refer to a "me."

Look at other "my" stuff. Traveling in a train, my seat, in a park my bench, my bus. Are they really yours or is it just extension of this habit?

Clearly just extensions of this unquestioned habit ...
The one thing I am really seeing is that there is almost nothing that I "know" for sure to be true (other than the simple absence of knowing) and that there appear to be innumerable assumptions that have not been questioned. I think we are getting somewhere ...

Thank you! Am grateful for all of the questions ...

Sita (Daria or whoever ...!)

[kvotski]

Awesome work, sita. And yes, I too break down in tears at the sound of some tunes, a touching movie scene or just nothing. Feels good after.

You seem to be coming to the conclusion that I, mind, self and thoughts may be the same. You are curious about where do these actually come from? Now, here is a question for you assuming that thinking is just another sense like hearing, seeing or tasting, do you wonder or know where all these sensing comes from? Why do you think thinking is so much more special that it needs a mind? Why can't all of these be done by the body and its organs like ears, eyes and brains? In direct experience, can you really deny this? Isn't the idea of a mind and self a big assumption which we can't substantiate? Isn't life just happening, warts and all?

Mull it over and sweet dreams.

[sitasf]

And yes, I too break down in tears at the sound of some tunes, a touching movie scene or just nothing. Feels good after.

Somehow that helps me to feel a bit better, that perhaps I am not losing it! I have to admit that the tears do feel cleansing in some way, kind of raw, real, alive. And here they come again ...

You seem to be coming to the conclusion that I, mind, self and thoughts may be the same. You are curious about where these actually come from?

Yes, perhaps. It all seems so fuzzy, like I can't clearly see any of it. It is difficult to separate or clearly delineate any of them, they all seem to flow together at the moment although much of the time it seems that thoughts dominate. Or is it that I give them more weight somehow (identify with them more)? Or perhaps this is just a habitual learned tendency as well.

And yes, I am quite curious about where they come from. I have tried to track thoughts from their source, but they just seem to mysteriously arise and I have never been able to successfully track them to any origin. I guess the only honest thing here is acknowledging that I have no idea how it all works. Seems most of this boils down to not really knowing anything for sure! Geez.

Now, here is a question for you assuming that thinking is just another sense like hearing, seeing or tasting, do you wonder or know where all these sensing comes from?

Yes, I do wonder where all this sensing comes from. When I observe silently from inside, it seems that sensory experiences just come automatically somehow - sounds come and are heard, then labeled; sometimes this happens so quickly that it seems simultaneous. With eyes closed in silence, sights come (such as lights seen inside, then are labeled). There is sometimes a sensation behind the eyes associated with this experience, but perhaps this is because there is a focus of attention in this area. Smells come and are smelled, then labeled. Sensation is felt, labeled (e.g., cramp in foot). And so on. It seems that these sensory functions just come and I really have no idea where they come from, they just seem to arrive somehow, get labeled etc., without any effort on "my" part whether I invite them or not.

Now if thinking is just another sense like the others, wow. Then taking them seriously seems ridiculous. Why do I take them so seriously and get frustrated, upset, depressed etc.??! Is it just habitual, engrained response (Pavlovian?!!)? Wow. Can this really be possible? How did I ever get in the habit of taking all this crap so seriously then?? How can I see this more clearly? It would be such a huge relief not to take these thoughts so seriously - they are such a torment! And then if there was not an "I"/self to have to defend or get hurt or judge or whatever, this would be a big joke. Then ... ?

Why do you think thinking is so much more special that it needs a mind? Why can't all of these be done by the body and its organs like ears, eyes and brains? In direct experience, can you really deny this? Isn't the idea of a mind and self a big assumption which we can't substantiate? Isn't life just happening, warts and all?

It just seems (another assumption) that thinking needs a mind to reason ... or else what is retrieving all these memories, putting thoughts together and making assumptions, comparing, judging, and all that crap? Really, I have no idea what is performing all these functions, it just seems to go on (and on and on ...). In direct experience I can't deny that all this can be done by the body and its organs because I really have no way to see the truth of how these functions work. I somehow assumed that there was someone (a me) that was influencing/controlling/doing this stuff but in truth I really have no idea! It is amazing how many unquestioned assumptions I have lived by! It appears that no one is in charge!! Yikes!!

However, if it is all the body and its organs, then what is left when the body is gone? I recall an experience of leaving the body and continuing to have some cognitive function (experiencer was still present somehow) ... how could this work if I wasn't in my physical body and the physical body and its organs were not present? What is recalling this now and asking these questions? Geez. Mostly questions, no real answers here.

It does somehow seem that the idea of a mind and a self ARE assumptions that cannot be substantiated. Evidence certainly points to this! Life - thoughts, sensory information, etc. - does just seem to be happening ... and I cannot truthfully say that I have any idea of how or where it all comes from, how it works, what keeps it all going. I feel more confused than ever!! Yikes.

I will continue to mull this all over ...

Thanks Sunil!! Nighty, night ...

Sita

[kvotski]

Hi Sita:

Great progress.

With eyes closed in silence, sights come (such as lights seen inside, then are labeled). There is sometimes a sensation behind the eyes associated with this experience, but perhaps this is because there is a focus of attention in this area. Smells come and are smelled, then labeled. Sensation is felt, labeled (e.g., cramp in foot). And so on. It seems that these sensory functions just come and I really have no idea where they come from, they just seem to arrive somehow, get labeled etc., without any effort on "my" part whether I invite them or not.

Now if thinking is just another sense like the others, wow. Then taking them seriously seems ridiculous. Why do I take them so seriously and get frustrated, upset, depressed etc.??! Is it just habitual, engrained response (Pavlovian?!!)? Wow. Can this really be possible? How did I ever get in the habit of taking all this crap so seriously then?? How can I see this more clearly? It would be such a huge relief not to take these thoughts so seriously - they are such a torment! And then if there was not an "I"/self to have to defend or get hurt or judge or whatever, this would be a big joke. Then ... ?

A big joke indeed. Why do you think so many have reported laughing for days after seeing the truth?

It just seems (another assumption) that thinking needs a mind to reason ... or else what is retrieving all these memories, putting thoughts together and making assumptions, comparing, judging, and all that crap? Really, I have no idea what is performing all these functions, it just seems to go on (and on and on ...). In direct experience I can't deny that all this can be done by the body and its organs because I really have no way to see the truth of how these functions work. I somehow assumed that there was someone (a me) that was influencing/controlling/doing this stuff but in truth I really have no idea! It is amazing how many unquestioned assumptions I have lived by! It appears that no one is in charge!! Yikes!!

Welcome to the real world as illusions are being revealed to you.

However, if it is all the body and its organs, then what is left when the body is gone? I recall an experience of leaving the body and continuing to have some cognitive function (experiencer was still present somehow) ... how could this work if I wasn't in my physical body and the physical body and its organs were not present? What is recalling this now and asking these questions? Geez. Mostly questions, no real answers here.

What's wrong with I dont know? We have neuroscientists trying to figure out how things work and one day they may tell us. The expanse of body and hence mind and its actions are limitless. What recalls the intricate maneuvers when you drive a car, or treat a child with utmost care but a horse with a whip? What makes the hair grow or twist the face to make it look like a smile? Do you do these intentionally?

It does somehow seem that the idea of a mind and a self ARE assumptions that cannot be substantiated. Evidence certainly points to this! Life - thoughts, sensory information, etc. - does just seem to be happening ... and I cannot truthfully say that I have any idea of how or where it all comes from, how it works, what keeps it all going. I feel more confused than ever!! Yikes.

Yes, lets leave that for the moment and work on another aspect of self that legitimises its existence. And that is control. It seems hard wired in our brain that I have control over my life, environment and general actions.

Check if this is true. When walking, slow down and look if you are walking or is it happening automatically?
Eating, pay attention on how the food leaves the plate and ends up in your stomach.
Then take some very hard decisions you have made in the past. And look given ALL the factors present at that time, was another decision possible? I mean ALL factors including the possiblilty of a mistake.

Let's do this.

Love

[sitasf]

Hi Sunil,

Oh my, I had just about completed my whole response and then lost it all :( So, here it goes again ...this time I'll save!!

Great progress.

Yes, I have felt that too, but then things keep getting fuzzy and fuzzier and the judgment thoughts "it shouldn't be this way," (i.e., I should be clearer, etc.) keep arising. It's funny, I can see that how would I know how anything is supposed to be (except based on past and applied as assumption to present)??! It seems something is trying to maintain a sense of "being in control" here, trying to "know/predict" what it can't know, judge what is happening and send the message it "should be some other way than it is." It seems this is at the root of the inner struggle and suffering. It seems that my BS meter is becoming a bit more sensitive, these things are generally going on "underground" but now they are a bit more noticeable for some reason.

Last night I "tried on" the understanding that everything is just happening by simply "relaxing into" observing what was going on inside. It seemed to be easygoing, a relief. I began noticing many things going on, especially the tendency (I just mentioned) of constant judgment thoughts arising to argue/struggle with the reality of what is happening in the moment (i.e., "this shouldn't be this way", etc.). It was really subtle initially but now is becoming a bit more noticeable.

A big joke indeed. Why do you think so many have reported laughing for days after seeing the truth?

I can see that this could happen. On some level, it seems cosmically hilarious that all this is just happening with no one in charge, and that I have taken it all so seriously. But then I see "I" am not convinced, that this seeing is still somewhat superficial, not on a deeper "gut" level. Is that a false expectation too, based on assumption that "things should be a certain way?" There is so many judgment thoughts going on inside me of how things should be, it seems to leave little space for seeing what IS happening!!!! It is no wonder that there is so much struggle and suffering going on!!

Welcome to the real world as illusions are being revealed to you.

Yes, I welcome the real world!! I welcome the revelation of so many illusions! I welcome the acceptance of "not knowing"! YES!!! Ultimately I can see it will be such a relief from so much effort-ing and suffering! Now I just need to accept the truths that I can see ...

What's wrong with I dont know? We have neuroscientists trying to figure out how things work and one day they may tell us. The expanse of body and hence mind and its actions are limitless. What recalls the intricate maneuvers when you drive a car, or treat a child with utmost care but a horse with a whip? What makes the hair grow or twist the face to make it look like a smile? Do you do these intentionally?

There is NOTHING wrong with "I don't know." It seems that it is the only really true statement I can make at this point. I have NO IDEA what makes the hair grow or the food digest, but it goes right on happening without understanding it at all and without any intention or even awareness of it on "my" part. Just happening. I see that.

It seems that the judgment thoughts (that cause so much suffering) just come on their own automatically too. I have not invited them, but somehow I have been taking them seriously and believing "something must be wrong with you if you are experiencing X or Y" despite the fact that X and/or Y just showed up uninvited too! Why do "I" feel somehow responsible for them? Why do I identify with this crap and feel so bad about it?!! Why do I take it so seriously even when I see it is crap??!!

Somehow acknowledging "I don't know" is a huge relief that somehow lets "me" off the hook of trying to figure everything out (that probably cannot be figured out anyway). Then judgment thoughts of "you haven't tried hard enough" or "there is something wrong with you if you don't know" arise and keep the struggle of trying to figure things out going. The truth is it's exhausting and even after all this effort and struggle I really don't know anyway. It seems the only really true statement I can make.

Yes, lets leave that for the moment and work on another aspect of self that legitimises its existence. And that is control. It seems hard wired in our brain that I have control over my life, environment and general actions.
Check if this is true. When walking, slow down and look if you are walking or is it happening automatically? Eating, pay attention on how the food leaves the plate and ends up in your stomach.

Yes, I can see that. There is something in me that still believes it is somehow in control of all this. When walking, I slowed down and the pace of the walking slowed down. However, there was nothing I could see that controlled how the legs and feet walked (the walking happened automatically) but when "I decided" to stop, the walking stopped. However, "I" did not have to explain to the legs and feet how to do this, it just happened automatically without any "how to stop walking" thoughts. This is a bit confusing, as it seems there is some capacity to influence the walking speed, stopping, etc. but not on the actual physical "how to" level.

When eating, when my attention left the eating, I noticed that the food was still leaving the plate, the tea was still leaving the cup, and that it all ended up in the stomach. No conscious controlling "I" was involved in this ... or of course the rest of the deal like digesting, assimilating, etc. No idea, clearly it just happens all on its own in some way. Another clear example of not knowing, not controlling.

Then take some very hard decisions you have made in the past. And look given ALL the factors present at that time, was another decision possible? I mean ALL factors including the possiblilty of a mistake.

Wow. That's interesting. I am recalling a hard decision made in the past (to sell my business, close my practice, move to another state). It seemed that I was making these difficult/big decisions, but when I recall all of the events that led up to it, that occurred in the midst of it, that there really were not other decisions possible. When I tried another way, events blocked the other possibilities ... so who really made any decision at all?! How could a mistake be made? Weird. I see your point ...

And in thinking back, much suffering has come as a result of self-blaming/self-judging thoughts that "I shouldn't have done this or that" in the past, or that "I made a terrible mistake" ... but I can see that things were just happening. And when painful experiences have occurred, I can also see that this suffering has somehow brought on a more focused longing for the truth/to get to the root of the suffering, and a loss of attraction to being caught up in cycles of false (outer) hopes and despair. All just happening. The suffering part seems to have come from the thought that "I did something wrong/made an error" and then thoughts of self-blame, self-judgment, etc. as if I were somehow responsible for it all. Yikes.

Hmmm. No mistakes. Just happenings.

Awesome, Sunil. Thank you for keeping the questions coming!!

Sita

[kvotski]

Hello Sita,

Wow, you are jumping in leaps and bounds, slow down a bit. Let the inspirations and insights take hold.
But I love it any way.

the judgment thoughts "it shouldn't be this way," (i.e., I should be clearer, etc.) keep arising. It's funny, I can see that how would I know how anything is supposed to be (except based on past and applied as assumption to present)??! It seems something is trying to maintain a sense of "being in control" here, trying to "know/predict" what it can't know, judge what is happening and send the message it "should be some other way than it is." It seems this is at the root of the inner struggle and suffering.

Last night I "tried on" the understanding that everything is just happening by simply "relaxing into" observing what was going on inside. It seemed to be easygoing, a relief. I began noticing many things going on, especially the tendency (I just mentioned) of constant judgment thoughts arising to argue/struggle with the reality of what is happening in the moment (i.e., "this shouldn't be this way", etc.). It was really subtle initially but now is becoming a bit more noticeable.

As you say judgement "thoughts". Thats what they are. As a pointer think about what thoughts are. Some are about real things like your vacation at a beach or fond memory of a friend, things you can go and check if they are real or not. Then there are thoughts of a unicron or my favourite, starship enterprise. Can you go and verify their reality? If not what are they? Illusions, perhaps?

Now see if your self beating thoughts are real or imaginary. Can you substantiate any of these thoughts that want to rob your peace? Again, try to follow the reason behind the thoughts, a bad experience in childhood. Very recently I discovered that I avoid conflicts because in the back of my memory banks was images of my dad getting very angry at some one. I must have been afraid and that feeling came back. Knowing this has been very calming.

Is there a judging history in your life somewhere?

On some level, it seems cosmically hilarious that all this is just happening with no one in charge, and that I have taken it all so seriously.

Check out my blog on "stop taking yourself too seriously". You may get some insights.

But then I see "I" am not convinced, that this seeing is still somewhat superficial, not on a deeper "gut" level. Is that a false expectation too, based on assumption that "things should be a certain way?" There is so many judgment thoughts going on inside me of how things should be, it seems to leave little space for seeing what IS happening!!!! It is no wonder that there is so much struggle and suffering going on!!

No wonder. So in the words of great psychiatrist, Bob Newhart, Stop it!

There is NOTHING wrong with "I don't know." It seems that it is the only really true statement I can make at this point. I have NO IDEA what makes the hair grow or the food digest, but it goes right on happening without understanding it at all and without any intention or even awareness of it on "my" part. Just happening. I see that.

Perfect.

It seems that the judgment thoughts (that cause so much suffering) just come on their own automatically too. I have not invited them, but somehow I have been taking them seriously and believing "something must be wrong with you if you are experiencing X or Y" despite the fact that X and/or Y just showed up uninvited too! Why do "I" feel somehow responsible for them? Why do I identify with this crap and feel so bad about it?!! Why do I take it so seriously even when I see it is crap??!!

Why indeed? Look. I maintain all thoughts have a reason. You have a choice of ignoring or digging. Digging them out relieves you.

Somehow acknowledging "I don't know" is a huge relief that somehow lets "me" off the hook of trying to figure everything out (that probably cannot be figured out anyway). Then judgment thoughts of "you haven't tried hard enough" or "there is something wrong with you if you don't know" arise and keep the struggle of trying to figure things out going. The truth is it's exhausting and even after all this effort and struggle I really don't know anyway. It seems the only really true statement I can make.

Now be careful of mind games. You don't know where thoughts come from and how the body walks. But you do know your deep dark secrets and why you are judging yourself harshly. So we can't hide under ignorance here. When you are sad, there is a reason. In most cases the reasons are trivial. If not, the body and brain needs to figure out a solution. Burying it will not do.

Yes, I can see that. There is something in me that still believes it is somehow in control of all this. When walking, I slowed down and the pace of the walking slowed down. However, there was nothing I could see that controlled how the legs and feet walked (the walking happened automatically) but when "I decided" to stop, the walking stopped. However, "I" did not have to explain to the legs and feet how to do this, it just happened automatically without any "how to stop walking" thoughts. This is a bit confusing, as it seems there is some capacity to influence the walking speed, stopping, etc. but not on the actual physical "how to" level.

So this is not complete. There is no control. Slowing down is a thought which is in turn caused by something like a pebble in the shoe or simply a thought that I am in control so I can do this. Check out a video in the home section about a neuroscience experiement where he shows how the body reacts before the mind says move; "neuroscience and free will in the recommended section".

Can you stop breathing?

When you stopped walking, can you stay stopped for half an hour? Why not? Who will decide to move, you or the tired body?

So stopping sequence goes like this. A thought comes up, I am in control so I can stop and the body stops. But did you start the thought? Are you in control of your thoughts? Can you stop thinking for a minute?

Do you know what your next thought would be?

Look deeply and find out if it is an illusion that you are in control.

When eating, when my attention left the eating, I noticed that the food was still leaving the plate, the tea was still leaving the cup, and that it all ended up in the stomach. No conscious controlling "I" was involved in this ... or of course the rest of the deal like digesting, assimilating, etc. No idea, clearly it just happens all on its own in some way. Another clear example of not knowing, not controlling.

Yes.

Wow. That's interesting. I am recalling a hard decision made in the past (to sell my business, close my practice, move to another state). It seemed that I was making these difficult/big decisions, but when I recall all of the events that led up to it, that occurred in the midst of it, that there really were not other decisions possible. When I tried another way, events blocked the other possibilities ... so who really made any decision at all?! How could a mistake be made? Weird. I see your point ...

Go through a few more situations. Now with something you are proud of and see if in fact that too was inevitable given ALL factors.

Hmmm. No mistakes. Just happenings.

Mistakes are tough to rationalise. They seem like if I had just picked number 62 I would be a millionaire with that lottery ticket. But you didn't is the point and for perfect reasons at the time.

A speeding ticket. You made a mistake and forgot to look at the speed sign. Because of the mistake you have ticket. The point is mistakes were made and will be made in future and tickets will happen as a result. You didnt decide to speed up.

Even tougher example, you got angry and told your boss off and lost your job. You made a mistake. The body and mind will make mistakes. No one chose to make them.

All cause and effect. If you want to blame something, blame it on BIg Bang. No that, no this.

Much love,

[sitasf]

Hi Sunil,

Wow, you are jumping in leaps and bounds, slow down a bit. Let the inspirations and insights take hold. But I love it any way.

Yes, I have a tendency to try too hard and there is this underlying sense of urgency about it all. However, I will take your advice here and try to relax a bit. Sigh. Behind this "trying too hard" seems to be the fear, "I'm afraid I'll never get it!" More self-judgment with the unworthiness agenda (yes, very critical family, lots of judgment history). Now if this self does not exist, how can it "get" anything anyway, right? Thank you, I will try to chill a bit ...

As you say judgement "thoughts". Thats what they are. As a pointer think about what thoughts are. Some are about real things like your vacation at a beach or fond memory of a friend, things you can go and check if they are real or not. Then there are thoughts of a unicron or my favourite, starship enterprise. Can you go and verify their reality? If not what are they? Illusions, perhaps?

Yes, I see that thoughts about "real things" - such as recalling a conversation I just had with a friend - can be verified (as long as the memory is reliable). I can also see that some of the thoughts that arise are illusions such as when I feel upset about a situation and I find myself having make-believe conversations with someone and getting upset - ridiculous! I can verify that they are not real, but imagined, self-created torment, projections.

Now see if your self beating thoughts are real or imaginary. Can you substantiate any of these thoughts that want to rob your peace? Again, try to follow the reason behind the thoughts, a bad experience in childhood. Very recently I discovered that I avoid conflicts because in the back of my memory banks was images of my dad getting very angry at some one. I must have been afraid and that feeling came back. Knowing this has been very calming.

When I look at the self-beating thoughts, there seem to be some "core" ones; are they real or imaginary, can they be substantiated? Hmmm, let's see. Here they are:

1) "I'm not good enough": This has been an underlying self-beating thought for as long as I can remember. There is really nothing to substantiate it as an adult as I have (for the most part) been a really "good" person according to this culture's standards, I have been successful in school (4.0 average in graduate school at UCLA, won top academic awards!!) and work (created successful medical research business from scratch), have many outer "accomplishments", have won numerous community service awards (see what a "good person" I am), have never committed any terrible crimes or done anything incredibly horrible (well, in high school I once "stole" a friend's boyfriend). However, I can see that no matter what I did, I was never "good enough" for my mother to express love to me or appreciation, be kind to me, etc.; it was always clear from her actions that she adored my big brother and she never acted this way with me. Geez, here come tears, even after 60 years it still hurts terribly as no matter what I did it was never good enough to win her love. And I can see that I have tried so hard all my life to prove to others that I was worthy of being loved/liked :( How sad. It seems that assumptions were made (based upon my mother's actions) at an early age before I could have any real understanding, these assumptions were never questioned, just stuffed "under the rug" to reduce the pain, and life was lived hoping no one would ever find out the "truth." So what started out as assumptions have continued as imaginary beliefs, but cannot be substantiated in reality.

2) "I'm not loveable": This one is quite similar in origin to #1; if my mother couldn't love me, obviously I am not loveable. Big assumption. I think this started very early on in my life and is another imaginary belief based upon unquestioned assumption related to the way my mother treated me. Again, I can see that much of my life has been motivated by trying to endear myself to others in a myriad of ways in order prove to them (& myself) that I am loveable, or at least to bury the possibility that they will find out that I am not loveable. The truth is that I can see many people in my life that have loved/liked me (and when I look at myself somewhat objectively, I do see some lovely qualities, noble actions, etc.), but because of this belief it has been very hard for me to accept. Again, this one cannot be substantiated either and is clearly imaginary.

3) "There is something wrong with me": This one seems to be the self-beating thought that often arises when I compare myself to others and then judge myself with it. I can almost hear my mother saying, "What is WRONG with you??!" This is one of the recurring self-judging thoughts that is used to tell me that whatever I am experiencing at the moment is not what should be happening. Really, when I try to substantiate this one, I cannot find anything actually wrong with myself either ... another imaginary belief/assumption.

4) "I am not smart enough/I am stupid": I can remember my brother making fun of me as a little girl in front of his friends, asking me, "Is Los Angeles a city or a country?" and my not knowing (I was only maybe 4 years old) and having them make fun of me and laugh at how "stupid" I was. I can also remember my father saying, "Well at least you're pretty even if you're not too bright!" Of course most of this happened when I was too young to question these things, so it seems that another assumption was made here... that even a 4.0 average at UCLA couldn't convince me to think otherwise. When I try and substantiate this one, it is really a joke when I look at all of the outer accomplishments in my life, realizing that one would have to be intelligent to have done. So, reality shows me another imaginary belief here ...

Is there a judging history in your life somewhere?

Yes, I think I have described much of it in detail. My mother was very critical, blaming, unloving, abusive at times, and favored my brother, father was quite judgmental, and older brother loved to make fun of me in front of his friends and was always trying to prove to me that I was not as smart/capable, etc. as him. So yes, I can see that these early influences are stored in memory banks, and are now drawn upon for self-abusing thoughts.

When I look back at this self over the years, I do feel compassion as I see all of the myriad of ways that "I" was always TRYING to compensate by working harder, being "perfect", trying to be sure people would like me by endearing myself to them, always trying to prove my worth to others, etc. so that no one would know my imagined shortcomings. Yes, these imaginary thoughts have robbed me of my peace for so many years, whether I have been aware of them or not ...

No wonder. So in the words of great psychiatrist, Bob Newhart

, Stop it!

OK, I can try ... can I just ignore these worry thoughts (will "I" ever be convinced that there is no self??)? They still seem to have some punch to them ...

Why indeed? Look. I maintain all thoughts have a reason. You have a choice of ignoring or digging. Digging them out relieves you.

So are you advocating that I look for reason behind the thoughts? Digging up the underlying assumptions/beliefs of the ones that bring suffering?

Now be careful of mind games. You don't know where thoughts come from and how the body walks. But you do know your deep dark secrets and why you are judging yourself harshly. So we can't hide under ignorance here. When you are sad, there is a reason. In most cases the reasons are trivial. If not, the body and brain needs to figure out a solution. Burying it will not do.

So yes, it seems you are suggesting that I dig into the self-judging, hurtful thoughts for their origins whenever possible. It's funny, but I can see I have spent a lifetime avoiding this very thing, so I guess it's time to try to uncover these "deep dark secrets."


BTW, this morning I awakened feeling a sadness, and dug about a bit to find that the thought I found is that I feel I have "wasted" so much of my life acting out all of unquestioned assumptions based upon childhood hurts... most of which likely meant little about "me" in the first place. Ouch, but interesting ...

So this is not complete. There is no control. Slowing down is a thought which is in turn caused by something like a pebble in the shoe or simply a thought that I am in control so I can do this. Check out a video in the home section about a neuroscience experiement where he shows how the body reacts before the mind says move; "neuroscience and free will in the recommended section". Can you stop breathing?

Hmmm. No I cannot stop breathing. I can try, but then the body will take over when I am short of oxygen. Breathing is just happening without any control from an "I".

When you stopped walking, can you stay stopped for half an hour? Why not? Who will decide to move, you or the tired body?

That is interesting ... I could have the thought that "I" decided to move when in fact it is really the tired body feeding that brought that thought ...

So stopping sequence goes like this. A thought comes up, I am in control so I can stop and the body stops. But did you start the thought? Are you in control of your thoughts? Can you stop thinking for a minute?

Also interesting. I have no idea who/what started the thought, I just assumed it was a "me". No, I am definitely NOT in control of my thoughts!! That I know for sure!!!

Do you know what your next thought would be?

No way. I can definitely 100% say NO.

Look deeply and find out if it is an illusion that you are in control.

Yes, I believe it is an illusion ... I am not in control ...

Go through a few more situations. Now with something you are proud of and see if in fact that too was inevitable given ALL factors.

Hmmm. I am reflecting on how "I" started my business from nothing to a large successful company ... without going into the "story" I can see that so many factors just presented themselves and fell into place ... and most of these had nothing to do with "me". They just happened.

In several other situations (that I could be "proud" of) I can see "I" am taking credit for being a particular way; kind, caring, going out of my way for others, etc., but really when I think about it these actions are coming from programming based upon assumptions about myself (not good enough, not loveable, etc.) which caused this "self" to behave this way. So this behavior was inevitable based upon programming based upon early assumptions. Like so many robots on some level. Geez. Hmmm.

Mistakes are tough to rationalise. They seem like if I had just picked number 62 I would be a millionaire with that lottery ticket. But you didn't is the point and for perfect reasons at the time.
A speeding ticket. You made a mistake and forgot to look at the speed sign. Because of the mistake you have ticket. The point is mistakes were made and will be made in future and tickets will happen as a result. You didnt decide to speed up.
Even tougher example, you got angry and told your boss off and lost your job. You made a mistake. The body and mind will make mistakes. No one chose to make them.

I can see this in a recent situation where I have blamed myself for a "mistake" and yet when I look back, I cannot see any other way things could have happened based on the circumstances in these moments of time. I could say, "what if X" or "what if Y?" but X and Y did not happen; what happened happened, so I can only say that it was inevitable to have happened as it did. Period. It is hard to let go of the self-blame; I can see there has to be an assumption that an "I" has control of a situation so if things went "wrong" that "I" is to blame. However, if that assumption is questioned, and it is seen that this "I" is and never was in control, then how could that "I" be responsible for the outcome of what went "wrong"?

All cause and effect. If you want to blame something, blame it on BIg Bang. No that, no this.

Yes, I can see it is all cause and effect on some level. Experiences happen, assumptions are made, programming occurs, behaviors/thoughts arise from programming, a life is lived really as a robot acting out all this unresolved stuff. It really is much easier to believe that Big Bang must be the cause of everything that has ever gone "wrong" ...

This was quite a workout, Sunil. Thank you!!!

Love, Sita

[kvotski]

Hi Sita,

I could give you a hug for being so good and thorough. A 4.0 at UCLA was hard earned not purchased in a classified column.

You are there. My dear. Tell me if you think self is an illusion. If not, why not?

Love,

[sitasf]

Hi Sunil,

Thank you, hug gratefully accepted :)

You are there. Tell me if you think self is an illusion. If not, why not?

You really think so??
Yes I do think that self is an illusion given all of the evidence to date. I have seen what seems to create the appearance of a self - a collection of memories, all of which are quite familiar - like a self. Now I also see there is a great deal of programming based upon experiences and assumptions made about them from a young age, that hardwire particular responses to particular stimuli (the cause and effect that you speak of), causing thoughts and associated feelings to arise (from somewhere). These thoughts and feelings are also very familiar and habitual and the experience of them makes it seem as if there really is a self experiencing them. This is all so very familiar, a lifetime of memories, experiences, thoughts and feelings forming the impression of a self. So, yes, I think that this "self" is an illusion ...the evidence is certainly there - smoke and mirrors.

Here is the strange part. "I" (who is THIS I anyway??) don't seem to be convinced. Why not I ask myself? Is it because I have a concept of how I should feel if I believe this to be true? That somehow I would feel differently if I accept this as the truth...that I would somehow not see everything from such a contracted perspective? Truly, I do not understand what it will take for "me" to accept this truth.

Strangely, I do not feel any fear of "not being a self" and I find that odd. Usually fear takes hold when I get too close to seeing the truth, or throws up a smoke screen, but I do not feel any fear about this at this time. So, it is not fear.

I was just driving home now and pondering all of this, and I suddenly burst into tears for no apparent reason. The thought arose that all this illusive self/"I" ever wanted was to be loved and accepted. I suspect these thoughts and feelings are somehow arising from the exercise last night (looking at the real/imagined self-beating thoughts). It seems so sad that I have spent over 60 years looking outside myself for love and acceptance because of assumptions made as a young child, before I had the capacity to see the truth. Somehow that just really struck me as sad; and I see that it is likely that multitudes of people live their whole life in this way without ever seeing the underlying programming, and the cause and effect experience of existence. Sigh. Anyway, just sharing the experience of the moment as it seemed to be meaningful in some way.

Why is it I don't think I'm "there"? What will it take for me to accept what I so clearly see??? Am I hung up on some expectation?

Thank you for all of your amazing patience with me Sunil!! I am so grateful for your questions and guidance ...

Sita

[kvotski]

Dear Sita:

Yes you know what it is, the expectations.

Tell me what do you think your body and mind (basically one unit) should feel if it knew the truth? Would you feel any different than you do now? Please explain why you think it should be different?

Sadness is a very common response to liberation as is relief. You report both.

Look deeply if these expectations aren't based on many years of doing this seeking and coming across so many stories from others. Or, you are looking to this liberation to wipe away the conditioned response your unit feels.
Check if any of those expectations are based on reality.

If there is no Sita, who will suffer?

See if "I am not there" isn't just another thought with its tails going way back to big bang as well?

Love

[kvotski]

One more experiment that may help is with now versus the past and the future. Look to find that all thoughts are either about something that has already happened or an imagination of the future based on the past. All thoughts, including this one that just passed.

So, in direct experience, what is the present moment?

[sitasf]

Dear Sunil,

Yes you know what it is, the expectations.

Yes, I suspected this could be so. It is just so difficult to see these things objectively when they somehow seem "real" to me still. Hard to discern what is true. I can see that this is where a guide is essential, to point out what may be "obvious", but nonetheless unseen. So thank you again for your precious guidance!

Tell me what do you think your body and mind (basically one unit) should feel if it knew the truth? Would you feel any different than you do now? Please explain why you think it should be different?

Mostly I feel as if there "should be" some kind of perceptual shift experienced ... that somehow I would see things differently, feel more detached from the habitual conditioning with the thoughts and emotions arising, seeing them as unreal, coming from the illusion of a self. Perhaps this is "magical" thinking of some sort, but I have heard so many "awakening stories" that somehow feed this idea (and then some).

Sadness is a very common response to liberation as is relief. You report both.

Yes, there has been a lot of sadness arising especially over the past few days. Today there have been more crying bouts, one seemed to arise when I felt touched by kindness, another felt like the release of some deep grief that I could not find any preceding event/thought for, and there have been others that feel like I am touched somehow on a deep level that have no particular explanation and are actually - for lack of a better word very pleasant, like some sort of a release. Interesting. Actually, I think a lot of this crying is not sadness it is something else, something new that is somehow about being touched on a deep "heart" level, a kind of "raw-ness."

Yes. I do recall feeling relief when seeing that the thoughts (that have tormented me so much) are just coming from programming from the illusion of self, and I could see that I don't have any reason to take them seriously. It feels that this relief comes more from a mental/logical deduction than from a gut feeling - does that come later or is that just another expectation of "how it should be"?

Look deeply if these expectations aren't based on many years of doing this seeking and coming across so many stories from others. Or, you are looking to this liberation to wipe away the conditioned response your unit feels. Check if any of those expectations are based on reality.

Truly, I have heard so many stories from others on liberation from so many different traditions, and have listened to so many interviews (on Buddha at the Gas Pump) of people's experiences of liberation - enough to create a myriad of expectations! So many of them seem dramatic, where they experienced a profound shift in their perception, and "absolutely knew" they had "passed through the gate" never to return to the contracted, self-centered existence. Sigh.

I don't think the expectation is that my conditioning would be wiped away, but that it would have less of an effect on me (less punch), that there would be more detachment from it, seeing it for the illusion that it is. I guess if I really ask myself, they are more based on a concept, as I have no true experience to base any different reality upon. How could I recognize reality if I don't I know what it is?

If there is no Sita, who will suffer? See if "I am not there" isn't just another thought with its tails going way back to big bang as well?

Exactly! I can see clearly that without a "Sita" there is no suffering, only conditioned responses (thoughts, feelings) arising (and subsiding somehow) and no one to identify with them as 'mine" - so no punch without a self.

One more experiment that may help is with now versus the past and the future. Look to find that all thoughts are either about something that has already happened or an imagination of the future based on the past. All thoughts, including this one that just passed. So, in direct experience, what is the present moment?

Yes it is clear that all thoughts are based upon the past or a projection of past onto a future...how could it be otherwise, as we only know what is known and if it hasn't happened we don't know it. The present moment if analyzed/labeled by the mind is a projection of the past onto the present...it can only see what it knows based upon previous experience. It seems the only chance we have for a present that is not a projection from the past is just raw sensory input before it is labeled...direct seeing, hearing, tasting, etc. without a label from the memory banks.

Thanks for all!

Love, Sita