The Gate

Dear Silvia,

Here is the follow-up to your post of Tues, at 8:47 PM. There are tears.

110% honesty seems elusive
What seems to be getting in the way of honesty?

"I" have a strong habit of "being a know-it-all." I overdrive my headlights a lot. I have for years studied Buddhism and politics/economics/+++ and use this accumulated store of facts - often enlarged - to make the statement of charlie, so to speak. That recurring thought pattern does not serve well in getting honest. . Silvia, I HONESTLY don't know if I'm telling the truth at times. As we continue, "I" have to review/parse what I write. And, now, in relations/communications with others.

Instead of Who is this I, consider this; What is this I?

Thank You!!
I will copy and print - for the wall and the car - Sri Nis' quote - Again, Thank you.

I'll take a guess that all your life has been a tremendous effort to seek the truth. It's time now to give up and be discouraged. You will never get enlightened. Because there is no you. Never was. It's illusion. A mind trick. Just look at the facts and the simple truth will arise all on its own.

GOLD!! Up on the wall

The stories seem to automatically arise in situations - but the situations and the stories change constantly with what looks like infinite variations. Some recurring situations elicit the same habitual stories. (A stubbed toe usually results in an immediate, familiar curse and label of "my stupidity/clumsiness" or somesuch.) Right now, it looks like all/most? consciousness is situational with thoughts/stories arising like ripples in a pond. The hook is that the "I" takes it personally.

There is an illusion of guiding, programming thoughts but that illusion seems to be just another assumption-thought-thing.

Can you choose your thoughts? Yes or No

No. Now that is seen.

But, Silvia, it's a work in progress.

Do you know this to be true? It's easier than the mind wants to think.

OK. This is being explored and your words give rise to [label] hopefulness - a sensation of [label] lightness. Sometimes I "think": "my mind is out to get my ass!" (Yes, labels galore.)

Another good question is, if there is no you, what is it that is seeking and looking for answers? ;-) Explore!

Oh My!! What a good question! The immediate, knee-jerk reaction is "how did I ever get started seeking? and does Life Lifeing really have some kind of cosmic meaning? and a purpose for "me"?" Then, 1) look at that reaction - with the labels and assumptions and clarity arises: no you again; 2) "what is seeking": the "right" answer is "no you", again. But it's not honestly 110% felt yet. Am taking this question to bed. Walk tomorrow early - feel sensations esp those arising from this question. Take your quote below with me this time!

This was really good noticing. You're now starting to really look behind the assumptions and labels that previously went unquestioned. When you do that truth will out. It cannot be any other way.

. . .your words give rise to [label] hopefulness - a sensation of [label] lightness.

As Always, Silvia,

Thank you!

charlie

Hello Charlie

Thank you for your answers.

With each days' looking, exploring, I see that many of my prior questions are obsolete. The "charlie answerer" does not exist. The answers seem to come spontaneously - they are just thoughts, themselves - the thoughts are real but, the content of the thoughts - the "answers" just arise and pass.

That's great!
So how clear is this now? Are you the thinker of the thoughts?

Explore ALL sensations in this way. Have a look around your room and watch the labelling machine we call mind in action. Then drop the labels. What happens when you look at "things" and see the "thing" instead of the mental label. Go for a walk and do this with all your bodily sensations. As you walk, feel the air, listen to sounds, feel the sensations in your feet, your legs, your arms.. Labelling (thoughts) will naturally keep happening, just watch it happening and keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body.

Yes! In process all day as much as is remembered - more frequently.

Ok, so can you describe your experience from doing this exercise?

a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted.

And how do you do that?

You haven't really answered this question Charlie. Did you do the catching or the aborting of thoughts?
Do you in fact do anything at all?
Look at your experience. Can you say with certainty I did that, I thought that, I felt that, I chose that, I decided that..
Watch how thoughts, actions, decisions, sensations, emotions, attention happen and ask the question! Is there a me doing any of these? Or are they just happening on their own? And if so how do they happen? Just watch and then watch again, and again, until clarity arises.

Explore this thoroughly Charlie.

This morning the dogs barked and the traffic roared by and "I was perturbed." (Could hardly hear LU Audios on the iPod.) Then, up came the remembrance of "Well, it ain't like that mate. . ." So, it occurred to look at the sensations of "perturbation." Labels arose and confusion reigned at times; another label; more looking, looking. At times, I try to localize a sensation. Often that leads to naming it - another label. Kinda lost here - so, what is arising now is "just be with it."

Where is the confusion? You are looking to see if behind everything that arises in your experience there is a "you" doing or witnessing or controlling or just existing. That should be the focus of your watching. Where is the "I"? Where? Where? Can you find it?

"I" have a strong habit of "being a know-it-all." I overdrive my headlights a lot. I have for years studied Buddhism and politics/economics/+++ and use this accumulated store of facts - often enlarged - to make the statement of charlie, so to speak. That recurring thought pattern does not serve well in getting honest. . Silvia,

1 Is this story true? (Yes or no. If no, move to 3.)

2 Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Yes or no.)

3 How do you react, what happens, when you believe this story?

4 Who would you be without the story?

Now turn the story around into it's opposite. Then find 3 examples where this opposite story is true.

(If these sound familiar it's because I'm borrowing these from the work of Byron Katie)

I HONESTLY don't know if I'm telling the truth at times. As we continue, "I" have to review/parse what I write. And, now, in relations/communications with others.

This is great noticing Charlie. We all tell a story that is only partially truth (at best!). Reality is indescribable. It cannot be put into words.

Try it. Explain to me how an orange tastes as if I was someone who had never tasted one.
How would you describe "blue" to a blind person?

Everything I write here is a story too. Therefore only partially true. Helpful one moment (hopefully!) and useless the next. So read it, use it, then discard it. Like a tissue. Blow your nose on it then throw away.
So don't go about putting anything up in your wall or tatooing it in your forehead or god forbid, memorising it. Not what I say, not what Sri Nis says, not what the Bhudda says. It's not about filling your head with even more useful stuff!
It is not about having helpful thoughts or wise quotes or handy reminders.

Is there an I anywhere in my experience other than as a mental label? That should be the focus of your investigation and nothing else. So simple a 3 year old could do it but a grown man struggles to (sounds familiar? ;-)

So off you go investigate this simplicity then laugh about it.

Much love
Silvia

Hi Silvia,

With each days' looking, exploring, I see that many of my prior questions are obsolete. The "charlie answerer" does not exist. The answers seem to come spontaneously - they are just thoughts, themselves - the thoughts are real but, the content of the thoughts - the "answers" just arise and pass.

That's great!
So how clear is this now? Are you the thinker of the thoughts?

At the times it's seen, there's a sensation of lightness/airiness (labels.) How else to describe clarity? A 'knowing." No, it's seen that there is no "you," thinker of the thoughts. Even the thoughts going on to this screen seem to be coming unbidden.

Explore ALL sensations in this way. Have a look around your room and watch the labelling machine we call mind in action. Then drop the labels. What happens when you look at "things" and see the "thing" instead of the mental label. Go for a walk and do this with all your bodily sensations. As you walk, feel the air, listen to sounds, feel the sensations in your feet, your legs, your arms.. Labelling (thoughts) will naturally keep happening, just watch it happening and keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body.

Yes! In process all day as much as is remembered - more frequently.

Ok, so can you describe your experience from doing this exercise?

Upon "dropping the labels," the "things seemed to lose their "characteristics" e.g., green, my English Book, "what's that doing up there?"; Also, (labels/thoughts aren't coming right now or then that describe it) - but, (anyway,) there seems to be a relaxed spaciousness - just seeing and not thinking about seeing. The term "raw experience/sensations" is "felt" here and more often. "Go for a walk..." there is the thought, "it's difficult to feel raw sensations" because, labeling jumps in. And, looking at sensations is not remembered "enough." (Oh Oh.) But, there IS a "keep coming back..." seeming to happen.

a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted.

And how do you do that?

You haven't really answered this question Charlie. Did you do the catching or the aborting of thoughts?
Do you in fact do anything at all?
Look at your experience. Can you say with certainty I did that, I thought that, I felt that, I chose that, I decided that..
Watch how thoughts, actions, decisions, sensations, emotions, attention happen and ask the question! Is there a me doing any of these? Or are they just happening on their own? And if so how do they happen? Just watch and then watch again, and again, until clarity arises.
Explore this thoroughly Charlie.

Yes - This "aborting" thought has recurred for a year or two - and now is seen as just another new thought arising taking the place of the prior thought. Now is seen that even the thought that an aborting had taken place is yet another label.

This morning the dogs barked and the traffic roared by and "I was perturbed." (Could hardly hear LU Audios on the iPod.) Then, up came the remembrance of "Well, it ain't like that mate. . ." So, it occurred to look at the sensations of "perturbation." Labels arose and confusion reigned at times; another label; more looking, looking. At times, I try to localize a sensation. Often that leads to naming it - another label. Kinda lost here - so, what is arising now is "just be with it."

Where is the confusion?

The "confusion" is now seen as just a label of (several?) sensations.

You are looking to see if behind everything that arises in your experience there is a "you" doing or witnessing or controlling or just existing. That should be the focus of your watching. Where is the "I"? Where? Where? Can you find it?

OK! Thank You!!

"

I" have a strong habit of "being a know-it-all." I overdrive my headlights a lot. I have for years studied Buddhism and politics/economics/+++ and use this accumulated store of facts - often enlarged - to make the statement of charlie, so to speak. That recurring thought pattern does not serve well in getting honest. . Silvia,

1 Is this story true? (Yes or no. If no, move to 3.)

NO - it's a habitual recurring cluster of thoughts that arise in situations, most unpredictable. It seems to reinforce an idea of "me."

2 Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Yes or no.)

3 How do you react, what happens, when you believe this story?

(Some kind?) of sensations arise that have been labeled as bad, uncomfortable, to-be-fixed, etc. Until now, they've never been looked as raw sensation and looked to see what's behind them.

4 Who would you be without the story?

Just a person with different stories - it seems the labeling is here to stay.

Now turn the story around into it's opposite. Then find 3 examples where this opposite story is true.

All that comes up are such as: "charlie, "I" is/am a quiet, unobtrusive blah, blah, blah." At least this evening, nothing comes up EXCEPT more labels/stories about me,I. Not even one comes up - not three.

(If these sound familiar it's because I'm borrowing these from the work of Byron Katie)

[On the shelf, not read yet. Not now!]

I HONESTLY don't know if I'm telling the truth at times. As we continue, "I" have to review/parse what I write. And, now, in relations/communications with others.

This is great noticing Charlie. We all tell a story that is only partially truth (at best!). Reality is indescribable. It cannot be put into words.

Try it. Explain to me how an orange tastes as if I was someone who had never tasted one.
How would you describe "blue" to a blind person?

Back to "raw experience!" It seems there is no way those can be done. And, there's no "I"/charlie that can do it.

Is there an I anywhere in my experience other than as a mental label? That should be the focus of your investigation and nothing else. So simple a 3 year old could do it but a grown man struggles to (sounds familiar? ;-)
So off you go investigate this simplicity then laugh about it.

YES! Constantly look behind everything for a "you", keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body, Just watch and then watch again, and again, until clarity arises. Where is the "I"? Where? Where? Can you find it?

Tomorrow is a Doctor visit for this "mouth sensation." Won't be home til evening and plan to go to the ocean in Morro Bay and take the long rural route inland. Will be LOOKING.

Did you get to my post of July 9, 9:34 (your time)?

Thank You again.

charlie

Hi Charlie

I hope you're having a nice day by the ocean.

You're doing well but I get the feeeling we're caught in a bit of a loop with the labeling exercise. It seems that your looking and your answers are purely focused on labels even when that's not what I'm asking you to do. We are also not trying to get rid of labels, is that clear to you? We need labels to communicate, so what would be the point?

I want to narrow the focus of this investigation now as much as possible and just look at one thing at a time to make sure we leave no stone unturned.

Are you the body?

Describe your experience of the body simply and in your own words. Just your actual experience. Do you have any control over the body? Do you control the breathing or any of the bodily processes?

Often there is a very subtle sense that somehow we are making the body happen even if intellectually we know this is not true. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do I make the body happen or does it happen on its own? Am I sustaining this body or is the body an organism happening with no need of a separate me?

Love
Silvia

Hello Charlie,

I haven't heard from you in a couple of days. Is everything ok?

Hope you're well.

Silvia

Yes Silvia!!

First - Dr's appts + other domestic chores have taken a lot of time lately -all done now;

Second, more important: "The body" - your questions are constantly being reviewed. There had been an impetus to "get the right answer" - to reason it all out. Then, on this morning's trip: get honest! Just report the answers that come up. They're not so "tidy." I'm re-writing the responses to the looking this afternoon - just as your post came in. But not sure how long it'll take. Certainly by tonight - Sunday morning your time.

Thank you for looking in on me. We're fine.

charlie

Silvia,
It's 3 AM there. Good morning - Happy Sunday.

I hope you're having a nice day by the ocean.

Ocean was on the way home from the Doctor: full case of oral thrush due to dry mouth due to medications for the failing hip/back - anti-fungal med has almost knocked it out.

You're doing well but I get the feeeling we're caught in a bit of a loop with the labeling exercise. It seems that your looking and your answers are purely focused on labels even when that's not what I'm asking you to do. We are also not trying to get rid of labels, is that clear to you? We need labels to communicate, so what would be the point?

I want to narrow the focus of this investigation now as much as possible and just look at one thing at a time to make sure we leave no stone unturned.

Good. This exercise really focused. There is a new seeing.

Are you the body?
Describe your experience of the body simply and in your own words. Just your actual experience.

The experience of the body is sensations such as pressure, warmth, "pain", the 5 physical senses, heaviness (seat on the chair). Closing the eyes (losing seeing) seems to enhance a feeling/sense of "aliveness" that is somehow ?emanating? [language fails] from the "body" which becomes just a word and has little meaning.

Do you have any control over the body?
Do you control the breathing or any of the bodily processes?
Often there is a very subtle sense that somehow we are making the body happen even if intellectually we know this is not true.

I can alter my breathing when I, say, swim for efficiency and survival and there is a subtle sense that I have controlled the body. "I" do lots of little similar things during the day that seem to regulate, change the body functions, reactions. A very subtle sense of control arises when the idea - sense - of "I did this" identifies. But, see below:

Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do I make the body happen or does it happen on its own?

Amazing! I stood in front of the mirror and just stared at the reflection for a while. Then came: "this isn't 'me;' who, what IS this? How did it get here? This body (or whatever it is) is just here by itself, living. It ALWAYS has! Shit, help! am 'I' losing 'me' here?" Silvia, it was a bit terrifying. It's still with me. I've returned to the mirror several times now. Each time, there is a detachment. Last time, a small laugh: "OMG!- how about THAT." There is a definite seeing that there's no I that's

making the body happen.

This experience is new.

Am I sustaining this body or is the body an organism happening with no need of a separate me?

Pls see above.

I've always avoided "the mirror" because the injunction has been "see your inner child" or "say ' Charlie, I love you'" and such psycho-babble. Now, all of a sudden, today, the mirror was my friend.

Finally, as I write, the thought arises: "Silvia, the mirror IS scary for now. Please advise."

Thank you so much.

charlie

Hello Charlie,

A happy Sunday to you to!

The experience of the body is sensations such as pressure, warmth, "pain", the 5 physical senses, heaviness (seat on the chair). Closing the eyes (losing seeing) seems to enhance a feeling/sense of "aliveness" that is somehow ?emanating? [language fails] from the "body" which becomes just a word and has little meaning.

So the experience of the body comes from the 5 senses. What about thoughts of the body? Do you ever see yourself in your mind, when you're walking around or doing something?

If I say concentrate on the feelings on your foot, do you get a picture-thought of the foot?
Try.

In your experience is there a feeling of inside and outside? Things happening within the body and outside of the body?
What happens if drop the picture-thought of foot and just stay with the raw sensation? Is there an inside and outside of the foot then?

Try this with the whole body.

Would you say your sense of the body comes more from the mind or from the senses?

Amazing! I stood in front of the mirror and just stared at the reflection for a while. Then came: "this isn't 'me;' who, what IS this? How did it get here? This body (or whatever it is) is just here by itself, living. It ALWAYS has!

Excellent! :-)

That's right! The body just is and always has been! And no you doing anything or anywhere to be found.

Let's look at your previous answer.

I can alter my breathing when I, say, swim for efficiency and survival and there is a subtle sense that I have controlled the body. "I" do lots of little similar things during the day that seem to regulate, change the body functions, reactions. A very subtle sense of control arises when the idea - sense - of "I did this" identifies. But, see below:

Do you still agree with what you wrote here? Is there within that body that you just saw as not you, a separate entity pulling the threads and ;pushing the buttons?

If I say lift your arm. What happens? How does the decision to lift (or not lift) the arm come about? Can you say with absolute certainty that you made the decision to lift the arm?

Explore that sense of control. Does it manifest as a phisical sensation in the body?

It ALWAYS has! Shit, help! am 'I' losing 'me' here?" Silvia, it was a bit terrifying. It's still with me. I've returned to the mirror several times now. Each time, there is a detachment. Last time, a small laugh: "OMG!- how about THAT." There is a definite seeing that there's no I that's

Great! :-)

Let's look at the fear now

"Silvia, the mirror IS scary for now. Please advise."

Fear is not a problem. The "problem" is fear of fear.

So fear arises and immediately the thought I don't like it, make it go away arises too.

Instead just drop the label fear, what is left? A sensation that "I" don't like. And even if it sounds like psycho-babble turn towards it with curiosity and a sense of kindness. What is fear trying to protect? Ask the question.

What comes up?

Then truly and honestly thank the fear. Say thank you for doing your job. Give it a hug. And let it be. This is not about making the fear go away is about being with it. Fear is just trying to protect you. But there is no "you" to protect. It's natural compassion that got lost in the dellusion.

So there is fear, that's normal, but is there still a desire to see the truth no matter what?

Good progress is being made Charlie

Love
Silvia x

Silvia, Good Monday Eve to you,

The experience of the body is sensations such as pressure, warmth, "pain", the 5 physical senses, heaviness (seat on the chair). Closing the eyes (losing seeing) seems to enhance a feeling/sense of "aliveness" that is somehow ?emanating? [language fails] from the "body" which becomes just a word and has little meaning.

So the experience of the body comes from the 5 senses. What about thoughts of the body? Do you ever see yourself in your mind, when you're walking around or doing something?

Yes.

If I say concentrate on the feelings on your foot, do you get a picture-thought of the foot?
Try.

Yes. "Picture-thought" - good term.

In your experience is there a feeling of inside and outside? Things happening within the body and outside of the body?

Mostly inside.

What happens if drop the picture-thought of foot and just stay with the raw sensation? Is there an inside and outside of the foot then?

OK; Without the picture-thought, the "edges" of the foot get "blurry." [+below]

Try this with the whole body.

Inside/outside kinda merge - except where the body is feeling pressure, like against the bed where I'm laying down; Only there is felt edges - a feeling of an inside.

Would you say your sense of the body comes more from the mind or from the senses?

I think the senses because there doesn't seem to be thoughts of the body most of the time. And, the body seems more real than "mindstuff" because thoughts and their contents are often wispy - and seem to be only experienced by way of the body sensations anyway.

Amazing! I stood in front of the mirror and just stared at the reflection for a while. Then came: "this isn't 'me;' who, what IS this? How did it get here? This body (or whatever it is) is just here by itself, living. It ALWAYS has!

Excellent! :-)That's right! The body just is and always has been! And no you doing anything or anywhere to be found.

Let's look at your previous answer.

I can alter my breathing when I, say, swim for efficiency and survival and there is a subtle sense that I have controlled the body. "I" do lots of little similar things during the day that seem to regulate, change the body functions, reactions. A very subtle sense of control arises when the idea - sense - of "I did this" identifies. But, see below:

Do you still agree with what you wrote here? Is there within that body that you just saw as not you, a separate entity pulling the threads and ;pushing the buttons?

No. It seems like the body just does things and AFTER - very soon after - arises the idea that "I did that."

If I say lift your arm. What happens? How does the decision to lift (or not lift) the arm come about? Can you say with absolute certainty that you made the decision to lift the arm?

Cannot say with certainty. The decision SEEMS to be a result of having heard a direction/suggestion with ears and a memory as to the meaning of the words and the habitual reaction and the arm gets lifted. THEN, arises the thought /idea of control: "I lifted 'my' arm."

Explore that sense of control. Does it manifest as a phisical sensation in the body?

[After writing pages on this which I'll spare you, it comes down to this:] It seems, yes, a physical sensation. It's slippery. The "control" is a habitual idea that manifests as a sensation - slippery because in trying to answer this, the mind tries to locate the sensation - and then tries to re-name it in new words - other than "control." First, the sensation(s) could be anywhere in the body - maybe a here-to-fore unrecognized, memorized cluster. 2nd, the new name(s) would still be substitutes for raw experience; (e.g., "a warmness of power arising between the ears.")

What is SO helpful right now is the recognition that something - an arbitrary judgement - unrelated to the action/issue - happens habitually. In very subtle forms it seems to be happening all the time. A lot of the time, it seems, a sense of control is part of the "human condition" - whatever THAT is.

It ALWAYS has! Shit, help! am 'I' losing 'me' here?" Silvia, it was a bit terrifying. It's still with me. I've returned to the mirror several times now. Each time, there is a detachment. Last time, a small laugh: "OMG!- how about THAT." There is a definite seeing that there's no I that's

Great! :-)Let's look at the fear now

"Silvia, the mirror IS scary for now. Please advise."

Fear is not a problem. The "problem" is fear of fear. So fear arises and immediately the thought I don't like it, make it go away arises too.
Instead just drop the label fear, what is left? A sensation that "I" don't like. And even if it sounds like psycho-babble turn towards it with curiosity and a sense of kindness.
What is fear trying to protect? Ask the question. What comes up?

Now, it comes up very clearly: Fear is trying to protect an idea of "me" that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the reflection/image in the mirror.

Jeeezuz, Gawd, what a f*kg disconnect!! And right behind that is seen that this charlie guy is shot thru with it - not just fears but a nonsensical ongoing obsession with "am I OK right now?"
SO:

turn towards it with curiosity and a sense of kindness

Then truly and honestly thank the fear. Say thank you for doing your job. Give it a hug. And let it be. This is not about making the fear go away is about being with it. Fear is just trying to protect you. But there is no "you" to protect. It's natural compassion that got lost in the dellusion.

Thank You!!

So there is fear, that's normal, but is there still a desire to see the truth no matter what?
Layers of charlie are being laid back. In spite of the fear, uncertainty, the enormity [drop the labels fear, uncertainty, and enormity] of a new perspective beckons. My expectations are shifting and, honestly, "I" have no way of knowing what's ahead but this is it, what "I've" wanted for years.

If you think it's pertinent, pls comment on this: I'm stopping most outside reading on our topics. For example, I've greatly enjoyed looking in on your and Peter's discussions. But, as of yesterday, I see we're converging in some areas. It seems for me that my experience and looking at it might not be as spontaneous if I get outside "guidance." Is that reasonable? Maybe continue with GG some,

Dear Silvia, Hi from California!!

charlie

Dear Charlie, Hi from London! :-)

Inside/outside kinda merge - except where the body is feeling pressure, like against the bed where I'm laying down; Only there is felt edges - a feeling of an inside.

Investigate this further. Is there really an edge in experience or is it just a thought?

I think the senses because there doesn't seem to be thoughts of the body most of the time. And, the body seems more real than "mindstuff" because thoughts and their contents are often wispy - and seem to be only experienced by way of the body sensations anyway.

Don't think, look! :-) Are you sure this is true? There is sensation, but is The Body a sensation or a thought?

No. It seems like the body just does things and AFTER - very soon after - arises the idea that "I did that."

Bull's eye! The mind is constantly appropriating stuff! Can you see is the same with thoughts, choices, decisions...?

Look back to some decision you made in the past. How did it come about?

Cannot say with certainty. The decision SEEMS to be a result of having heard a direction/suggestion with ears and a memory as to the meaning of the words and the habitual reaction and the arm gets lifted. THEN, arises the thought /idea of control: "I lifted 'my' arm."

Great! So is it clear? That there is no separate you making the decision to lift the arm?


Going back to the sense of control over the body. If it manifests as a physical sensation , then.. well is it more that just a sensation with a "me" thought attached to it? Can a sensation be in control of anything?
Can you find "anything" in control of the body? And even if you could find it, can it be "you"?

Now, it comes up very clearly: Fear is trying to protect an idea of "me" that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the reflection/image in the mirror.

Jeeezuz, Gawd, what a f*kg disconnect!! And right behind that is seen that this charlie guy is shot thru with it - not just fears but a nonsensical ongoing obsession with "am I OK right now?"

Good! very well done indeed!.

so what remains to be seen? What's not yet clear?

I would not advise you to read other threads with me as a guide, as it may lead to unhelpful comparisons. But like I've said before this is your own process, it's up to you to to decide honestly what helps and what doesn't.

Great answers Charlie! Keep going, you're very close now.

Love
Silvia x

Hi Silvia,
Tues Eve here, midnite there.

Inside/outside kinda merge - except where the body is feeling pressure, like against the bed where I'm laying down; Only there is felt edges - a feeling of an inside.

Investigate this further. Is there really an edge in experience or is it just a thought?

OK, "edges" are just a thought - a label - I picked it up months back - it seemed to apply to experience. You saw it for what it is.

The earlier question was:

Would you say your sense of the body comes more from the mind or from the senses?

I think the senses because there doesn't seem to be thoughts of the body most of the time. And, the body seems more real than "mindstuff" because thoughts and their contents are often wispy - and seem to be only experienced by way of the body sensations anyway.

Don't think, look! :-) Are you sure this is true? There is sensation, but is The Body a sensation or a thought?

This time you capitalized "The Body." I finally get it! The Body is just a thought. There is a real thing/organism that appears in the mirror (actually, that's a moot point - light waves bouncing off of molecules that are "seen" - given the relative physics, etc. . .and that are subsequently named - are all just more labels - useful but not real) and at other times. Sensations arise - (including the sensation of sight - of something in the mirror.) They seem to be coming from this thing reacting to stimuli - thoughts or physical. The sensations are experienced by - "I" don't know what. Just looking here, not thinking. They're just experienced.

Look back to some decision you made in the past. How did it come about?

Cannot say with certainty. The decision SEEMS to be a result of having heard a direction/suggestion with ears and a memory as to the meaning of the words and the habitual reaction and the arm gets lifted. THEN, arises the thought /idea of control: "I lifted 'my' arm."

[1]Great! So is it clear? That there is no separate you making the decision to lift the arm?
[2]Going back to the sense of control over the body. If it manifests as a physical sensation, then.. well is it more that just a sensation with a "me" thought attached to it? Can a sensation be in control of anything?

NO! Sensation just seem to arise from conditions - the reaction - usually habitual - can give rise to "control" thoughts, which sometimes vary. No predictability, consistency, really. No actual control. Help out, here. It also occurs that a "me thought" can arise first from conditions (other thoughts e.g.,) and prompt a sensation. Which, in turn, reinforces the thought, and on and on. It doesn't seem to matter - it all just happens.

Can you find "anything" in control of the body? And even if you could find it, can it be "you"?

NO. When around the house, standing in front of the mirror, this is stark, raving obvious. But, there still is the thought that "if I take this aspirin, then my headache will go away." And later, "See!?" Silvia, as we go along, that feeling/sentiment is being looked at more and more and is being seen as ridiculous. But, so far, there's a "lag."

so what remains to be seen? What's not yet clear?

Silvia, More and more often there are arising "see-ings": how this charlie uses language, esp, labels and their nature; honesty; fear and a new habit of "hugging/thanking;" mirror image of the charlie thing and the impersonal-ness of it; sensations and their impersonal-ness; and more.

But, it all just happens sporadically. OK, so there's no control that an "I" has to "speed up the process." But then is felt the sensation(s) with the label "discouragement/frustration." LOOKING at that now gives rise to expectations. They are being blown to hell. "I" don't know what "I" want anymore - except to see without the stories. There is the thought that stories are the cause of something we call "suffering." But I don't even KNOW that anymore.

Great answers Charlie! Keep going, you're very close now.

When you write that, there arises here an "ALLRIGHT!, finally." Right away is awareness of expectations - all seem to be based on some kinds of pie-in-the-sky OR -"'I'll' never get it - 'I'm' still a hard case" \

OH Shit!! I'm not going to edit the above. -- NOW, it comes: OK!! There's no "I" to get anything. There's no such thing as a "hard case." And also, "expectations" are just thoughts that arise, based on conditions - most of which have been put "there" by years of reading and sitting in dharma talks.

Enuf for now.

May you be well,

and thank you for going thru all "this . . ." and your continuing guidance!!
charlie

Hello Charlie

OK, "edges" are just a thought - a label - I picked it up months back - it seemed to apply to experience. You saw it for what it is.

Good :-). So is there an inside and outside to your experience?

What about a here and there?

Me and other?

This time you capitalized "The Body." I finally get it! The Body is just a thought. There is a real thing/organism that appears in the mirror (actually, that's a moot point - light waves bouncing off of molecules that are "seen" - given the relative physics, etc. . .and that are subsequently named - are all just more labels - useful but not real) and at other times. Sensations arise - (including the sensation of sight - of something in the mirror.) They seem to be coming from this thing reacting to stimuli - thoughts or physical.

Lovely!

The sensations are experienced by - "I" don't know what. Just looking here, not thinking. They're just experienced.

Is there any need for a I don't know what to experience sensations? Is there a separate experiencer? Or is ther just... this?

there still is the thought that "if I take this aspirin, then my headache will go away." And later, "See!?" Silvia, as we go along, that feeling/sentiment is being looked at more and more and is being seen as ridiculous. But, so far, there's a "lag."

Ha, ha, ha! Yes aspirin still works well for headaches! That won't change after the gate ;-) The mind is very helpfully reminding you of something that helps with a perceived unpleasant sensation. Isn't that beautiful? Always taking care of "you".

But the important point as always is, did you make that thought happen?
And another is, do thoughts think? does the thought think aspirin will help or is it just a sort of helpful signpost, created from memories of having taken aspirin in the past?

OH Shit!! I'm not going to edit the above. -- NOW, it comes: OK!! There's no "I" to get anything. There's no such thing as a "hard case." And also, "expectations" are just thoughts that arise, based on conditions - most of which have been put "there" by years of reading and sitting in dharma talks.

So Charlie, is this seen clearly now?
Has the seeking dropped away?
What is Charlie?

Much love

Silvia

Hi Silvia,

Thurs eve here - 1AM there. Am not getting answers to our latest round and am very distraught. I know, labels. There's a need to write you almost every day. So this is it for today. I'm having to go back, revisit all our work. The clarity of recent days is gone. And, the pressure of having to post often is, right now, seemingly, getting in the way of clear honest seeing. I don't drink or smoke and only have taken a pain pill or two lately. There just seems to be a lot of "talking-to-myself," rehearsing answers, doubt, and "what the hell am "I" doing wrong?" coming up. All activities (except swimming, walking and yoga) are off. There is a bit of encouragement: "well, this is what it takes, maybe - no better chance to go into the fear." So, dear Silvia, that's where I am for the next couple of days. Oh yes, there have been answers; but they are just intellectual, book-learning answers - not felt, seen.

Am On IT most of the time!!

Stay with me, please.

charlie

Hi Charlie,

Am not getting answers to our latest round

Is this true?

When we ask we always get an answer. It's just that sometimes the answer is I don't know. So don't know! That's your answer! Stay with the not knowing. Let it unfold in its own time. Watch the emotions that arise with this state of not-knowing.

What is it that panics when "I" don't know? I've already given you a clue but putting quotation marks on it ;-).

This idea of a separate I is a very fragile one. It takes a lot of effort to sustain it and gets threatened very, very quickly. It doesn't like this not-knowing business. It needs certainties. But these too are just stories. Not knowing is a great experience to explore! Be confused or be clear it doesn't matter! Whatever is happening is the right thing to be happening.

and am very distraught. I know, labels.

Ok Charlie, beware of this "spiritual bypassing" BS. If you're distraught, be distraught. I don't mean get caught in the story the mind spins around the emotion. Just be with the actual emotion. Dropping the label can help surrendering to the emotion. But that doesn't mean you say oh, it's just a label... and dismiss it. Dismissing is a form or resistance that will only increase the frustration. And no is not just a label. It's a reality you're experiencing (with a label attached to it). Is this clear?

And, the pressure of having to post often is, right now, seemingly, getting in the way of clear honest seeing.

But you are already honestly seeing! lol!! :-) The pressure to post is not getting in the way of anything. But the pressure to post or see something that fits with the expectations of how all this should be happening may very well be. Leave the expectations behind. What's happening is what's happening, and that is the only honest answer.

There just seems to be a lot of "talking-to-myself," rehearsing answers, doubt, and "what the hell am "I" doing wrong?" coming up.

Cool. So these thoughts are happening. Is there a you in control of these thoughts? Or making them happen? Are the thoughts a problem? Or is the "problem" that these thoughts clash with other thoughts about what thoughts should be happening?

Oh yes, there have been answers; but they are just intellectual, book-learning answers - not felt, seen.

Is this thought true?

Reading these answers and the ones to your previous posts, it sounds to me like you are seeing just fine. Was your experience of looking in the mirror and finding no you in the body intellectual, or was it felt and seen in direct experience?

Am On IT most of the time!!

Are you in control of this? Do you decide when you're on it and when you're not on it?

Have another look to the questions in my previous post and see if anything else comes out today. Follow the pointers. Watch out for expectations. Just be with what happens.

Much love
Silvia x

Fri eve 7/19 PST
Dear Sylvia,

Once again you point to the truth. I'll answer your/our latest posts - then, as you suggest at the bottom of this post, go back and answer what comes up from the other day - the questions that gave "me" "trouble."

Am not getting answers to our latest round

Is this true?

When we ask we always get an answer. It's just that sometimes the answer is I don't know. So don't know! That's your answer! Stay with the not knowing. Let it unfold in its own time. Watch the emotions that arise with this state of not-knowing.

What is it that panics when "I" don't know? I've already given you a clue but putting quotation marks on it ;-).

This idea of a separate I is a very fragile one. It takes a lot of effort to sustain it and gets threatened very, very quickly. It doesn't like this not-knowing business. It needs certainties. But these too are just stories. Not knowing is a great experience to explore! Be confused or be clear it doesn't matter! Whatever is happening is the right thing to be happening.

Much relaxing is felt as I read this. What wonderful pointers - and those below.

and am very distraught. I know, labels.

Ok Charlie, beware of this ➀:"spiritual bypassing" BS. If you're distraught, be distraught. I don't mean get caught in the story the mind spins around the emotion. Just be with the actual emotion. Dropping the label can help surrendering to the emotion. But that doesn't mean you say oh, it's just a label... and dismiss it. Dismissing is a form or resistance that will only increase the frustration. And no is not just a label. It's a reality you're experiencing (with a label attached to it). ➁:Is this clear?

➀: I had to find and read the interview with Welwood. Had ignored it - N/A to me. OH MY!! *"I" am an original SBer. NOW, all my expectations/goals are up for grabs. Wonderful! * And, now I see that there's no "I" to me/"DO" SBing. It seems to be a process that this body/mind apparatus goes thru based on conditioning.
➁: Yes, the real FEELING arises (w/the attendant sensations) - then the habitual label is applied. NO NO - then the label arises - there's no "applier" to apply the label - just as there's no "un-applier" to abandon it.

And, the pressure of having to post often is, right now, seemingly, getting in the way of clear honest seeing.

But you are already honestly seeing! lol!! :-) The pressure to post is not getting in the way of anything. But the pressure to post or see something that fits with the expectations of how all this should be happening may very well be. Leave the expectations behind. What's happening is what's happening, and that is the only honest answer.

OK; before, that was totally missed! And now, "what the hell is 'pressure'?" There IS a felt sense - sensations - called "pressure." Silvia, as look back on those words, the thought comes: "It's just a knee-jerk reaction." "I've" felt this cluster of sensations for so long, it's just [oh-oh] 2nd nature to call it "pressure."

There just seems to be a lot of "talking-to-myself," rehearsing answers, doubt, and "what the hell am "I" doing wrong?" coming up.

Cool. So these thoughts are happening. Is there a you in control of these thoughts? Or making them happen? Are the thoughts a problem? Or is the "problem" that these thoughts clash with other thoughts about what thoughts should be happening?

Oh yes, there have been answers; but they are just intellectual, book-learning answers - not felt, seen.

Is this thought true?
Reading these answers and the ones to your previous posts, it sounds to me like you are seeing just fine. Was your experience of looking in the mirror and finding no you in the body intellectual, or was it felt and seen in direct experience?

The mirror was clear seeing - felt profound. Has pretty much lasted in the background. i.e., there is often a remembrance of that seeing - even during the "outside" day. But, the recurring thought is "I" s/have this clear seeing all the time still sneaks in there! All the posts to you have been honestly experienced/seen - the meaning of the above (intellectual) was that after relating them to you, when absorbed in "other things," the clear seeing is forgotten. But, as above, that these thoughts clash with other thoughts about what thoughts should be happening?
Your pointers in today's post seem to really re-direct the thinking of this body/mind. It seems that a new conditioning/habit is forming. Does that make sense? Or is it just another thought?

Am On IT most of the time!!

Are you in control of this? Do you decide when you're on it and when you're not on it?

When you point it out, it's obvious that "being on it" is just intention (or whatever) coming up on it's own. And, "I" taking credit for it after the fact. (I'm just starting to see that it's kinda fun to see all this stuff just going on along on it's own! "Good Gawd, what's next?")

Have another look to the questions in my previous post and see if anything else comes out today. Follow the pointers. Watch out for expectations. Just be with what happens.

Right now, below:
**************************************************
Re: Charlie Looking for a Guide +

Post by The-Song-Of-Me » July 17th, 2013, 1:46 pm
Hello Charlie

Good :-). So is there an inside and outside to your experience? What about a here and there?

I don't know. "Inside" is seen as just a word to describe a kind of sensation. But, the arthritis in my left hand is not on the outside of my hand and it's not over there - like in the living room in the chair. As above, there is felt that this is not the "right" answer so, "I don't Know."

Me and other?

When looking in the mirror, is seen that "that guy/image" is definitely not (a) "me." But that seeing does not seem to translate into "no other." Again I don't know. More LOOKING feels like it's coming up. Ha Ha.

The sensations are experienced by - "I" don't know what. Just looking here, not thinking. They're just experienced.

Is there any need for a I don't know what to experience sensations? Is there a separate experiencer? Or is there just... this?

Oh no! Those words were an HONEST expression of what was felt at the moment. NOW, seen that there is no "experiencer." (writer, doer, . . . )

[Take the ASPIRIN]:But the important point as always is, did you make that thought happen?
And another is, do thoughts think? does the thought think aspirin will help or is it just a sort of helpful signpost, created from memories of having taken aspirin in the past?

It's an habitual thought. There's another one now re the upcoming? toothache. Signpost? Help! Such a nice helpful word/idea. But not understood here. Elaborate please? Other egs, maybe?

So Charlie, is this seen clearly now?

Same old story, Silvia: what is seen clearly - is only in episodes during the day - esp when in my room inquiring, looking. Then, there arises the thought(s), "I better not commit to Silvia that "I'm" getting it" or we'll both be disappointed. Again,

Not knowing is a great experience to explore! Be confused or be clear it doesn't matter! Whatever is happening is the right thing to be happening.

Has the seeking dropped away?

No. At least there is an ongoing looking, hoping for more moments of clarity. There doesn't seem to be impetus to "get enlightened" anymore. But, there IS a continuing want to see this toothache, hip, mouth (unpleasant) sensations as just passing stuff. And the hoping that eventual clarity will put Spiritual Bypassing and early morning depression in perspective.

What is Charlie?

It is a name - given to the image in the mirror. i.e., When the image looks back at it's own image, and when "charlie" is thought, there arises a feeling of non-sensicalness - THAT's not a charlie! But, the sense of a charlie in this organism/body (small "b"), remains in life's daily interaction with others. The posturing, expounding, calling attention, etc. continues with but momentary "Ahas" - it's doing it again!"

But, also is felt as answering this is "this "I" needing certainties. "I" don't like this question. So - now to explore this "panic" of not knowing, again! fits with the expectations of how all this should be happening may very well be. Leave the expectations behind. What's happening is what's happening, and that is the only honest answer.

OK Silvia. Thank you for considering all this. The sense of confidence has returned. This is probably more than is usually covered at one time. But, the charlie doubts erupted and "we" calmed things down.

Thank you!! for your continued guidance.

GOOD MORNING - Saturday.

charlie