The Gate

P.s. I've sat with this sadness for a little while and I do feel it is related to the letting go of the self and of those I love. It makes those loving relationships seem pointless and empty, when they actually feel deep and real. Quite unsettling.

Hi Bob,

This is purely experiential and not about learning or wisdom. It is about the experience of awareness with the understanding that there need not be an identity attached to that. That life continues on, the energy that makes up the Universe just transforms.

However, experientially the sense of self is so powerful and convincing. I know that spending time looking for the self is a complete waste of time for 2 reasons: 1) if there really was a self, it wouldn't be able to see itself; just as the eye can't see itself and 2) if there was no self, it would never be found anyway.

Are you identified with the body?? It would seem to be the confusion here. Are you the body? Does your leg or head have an identity? Isn't the body simply the vehicle for awareness? Are you then your brain and that is all? In science one of the first things we learn is that energy does not cease to exist, it only transforms? In relation to the body what does that mean?
As for real, if you look at the ocean, you see an individual wave come up on the shore, then it sinks back into the body of the ocean once again, now multiply that. Does it mean that the wave didn't exist? When you look and don't find a self, is there nothing or everything?

I've sat with this sadness for a little while and I do feel it is related to the letting go of the self and of those I love. It makes those loving relationships seem pointless and empty, when they actually feel deep and real. Quite unsettling.

What has actually been lost? If all is One, all is energy? There are two ways of looking at this, either everything has meaning or nothing does. Does love go away because awareness does not need an individual identity? Experiencing is real, isn't it? Love, Metta

Regarding my identity, I would say 'I' am a unit consisting of my brain and body; though ultimately, the brain alone. No brain, no 'me'. I do hope there is more to 'me' than this, but I don't see it. My awareness is just the product of a functioning brain. Yes, experiencing is totally real, but limited to the lifetime of this body/mind. At the moment my worldview is scientific materialism, but I instinctively feel that there is more to this world than that, hence my 30 year spiritual search. I'm really having trouble seeing that awareness is much more than a physical byproduct, that it is somehow 'me', my true nature. Thanks Metta.

Hi Bob,

Regarding my identity, I would say 'I' am a unit consisting of my brain and body; though ultimately, the brain alone. No brain, no 'me'.

Yes, there is a brain and a body and awareness of sensations, and thought. Though when you looked at the video , it was seen that decisions were made before the man was even aware of them. Who made them? Does awareness have an end line or edge that can be seen? Physically it can be seen where your body ends and something else begins and that is due only to brain function, some people can't tell that due to illness. But strictly using awareness as a criteria, can a separation be seen in anything ?

My awareness is just the product of a functioning brain.

Is that a fact that has been proven or known to be true? Or could the brain and body be the vehicle of expression for awareness? So is the body your identity? Doesn't the body function fine without an identity and was functioning before you had an identity? I may have said this already, but a baby has no sense of self at all before 18 to 22 months of age, at some point they feel no separation from the Mother at all. Is that true awareness before all the conditioning and concepts and labels are applied? They still function.

Are you aware of any separation between what you call your thoughts and others thoughts except as a conceptual overlay? Can it be ascertained where my thoughts begin and yours end? Or anyone's.


Take water for example, it basically stays the same at all times, but changes form, from ice,to steam, to mist, to clouds, to rivers, to the ocean, etc. yet it remains water. In the ocean a drop of water is thrown into the air, if it had a tiny brain it might think it was separate, until it fell back into the ocean. Couldn't awareness appear as a plant, a person, an animal, or in many forms, but still be just One awareness? None of this needs a self to occur.

Love, Metta

Hello Bob,

Just a link for your viewing, let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Love, metta

Wow, Metta! That video was absolutely awesome! Made me cry like a baby! So, if consciousness is really somehow tuning into our brains, all it takes is a little tweak, a little flash of insight (or in Jill's case a stroke; in Suzanne Segal's case a brain tumour) and we can see reality in it's true fulness? I certainly don't wish for a brain disorder (who would? :) ), but I do wonder what it will take to tweak my brain. The comparison is often made of seeing those 3D pictures that were all the rage in the 90s. Some people see them pretty much straight away and others struggle and strain for ages and when they finally relax and give up trying, it all becomes clear! I really need to see this Metta. I instinctively feel that everything you have said is spot on and intellectually, I agree with most of it, I just don't SEE it for myself yet. Any tips greatly appreciated! Thank you again for that incredible video Metta. I really can't thank you enough for all your help and support!

Hi Badger Bob,

Hopefully a stroke is not needed. :-) Thoughts are only thoughts, they arise an become attached to feelings. But isn't Bob just a conceptual overlay of projection based on experiences. the smelling, seeing, hearing, tasting, sadness, joy, etc. ? Can the mind be trusted to always give us the right information? If there was a real identity would it take time to gain it or would it be there at birth? Remember babies have no self until between 18 to 22 months of age. Could life just be living itself spontaneously, moment by moment , no past, no future, just total freedom ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

An example of the brain being confused by input. Could life be just energy transforming, changing? We learn that energy never dies, it only transforms in science? No birth, no death? Just transformation? Yes, the three D pics, what manifests never leaves it's original substance ,it only manifest different forms for a moment.


Love, Metta

I think the way I see my identity is like a block of stone that has been chiselled and fashioned by the forces of life (environment, upbringing, education, etc.) and what's left is a sculpture (of sorts!). I can identify much more easily with the sculpture than with the stone; even though I know the sculpture wasn't there to begin with, it certainly is now. Hope you get my drift. Is it a case of dissociating myself from the sculpture and focussing more on the stone instead? Whatever that means :-)

Hi Bob,

Can a thought think? Can a thought think of itself? Can an eye see itself? Thoughts just arise , there is no control over that, processes happen lightening fast or that is what we perceive to happen. Remember there is a gap between a decision and awareness noticing it. The decision is made before someone is even aware of it. What does that speak too? Isn't there just the 5 streams of sensation and thought? Without awareness which just is or life living itself whats left? There is no separation in energy is there? Like those trick pictures you look at that appear to be small pieces of the same thing and when you keep looking a shape emerges. but it is never not the small pieces, just a temporary shape of the small pieces which goes back to the unified field.

I think the way I see my identity is like a block of stone that has been chiselled and fashioned by the forces of life (environment, upbringing, education, etc.) and what's left is a sculpture (of sorts!).

Isn't that just a thought? Is there a permanent identity? Isn't identity a verb,instead of a noun? :-) a process that only exists in the mind? Give these questions some thought and then answer as best you are able. Go into the reasons why there are thoughts about such and such, like identity, etc.

Love, Metta

Hi Bob,

Could it be that a supposed identity was just a conceptual overlay on awareness of experiences? Try to see this and let me know what the thoughts are on this. Love, Metta

To be honest, I have real difficulty even understanding these questions Metta. My head just doesn't work like that. I'm just a down to earth, black and white, spades a spade kind of bloke. I don't get poetry, have never had any mystical/spiritual experiences and have great difficulty describing the metaphysical/ethereal. All I know is that I somehow exist and my head is always full of thoughts. Could my actual identity be just a bunch of thoughts? Possibly. Is there a permanent identity? Who knows, there could well be; I have no reason to doubt it at the moment. All the nonduality stuff I've been reading lately keeps telling me over and over again "there is no self", but my continuing experience tells me otherwise. And if ultimately, there is no permanent self, then what does that even mean in day to day life? I've been asking these sorts of questions for over a year now Metta and I'm just not getting any answers; I haven't moved from square one it seems.

Yes, it could well be that a supposed identity is just a conceptual overlay on awareness, definitely. But how do I SEE this for myself, really SEE this? And what will happen if/when I do? Right now, the thought that this might be true, has absolutely no effect on me whatever. It's like the knowledge that there are literally billions of stars in billions of galaxies. That is one hell of a factoid and should blow our minds! But it doesn't. Why? Because we can't really comprehend it. That's how I feel with this no self stuff. I just can't seem to take it in, to REALLY get it.

Hi Bob,

Yes, it could well be that a supposed identity is just a conceptual overlay on awareness, definitely.

If it could be ,then it usually is. :-) When you look around the environment, there is the awareness that other life forms have awareness, but not necessarily an identity called a self. Birds for example are aware of their surroundings, but don't think of themselves. So this makes it possible to have awareness without an identity doesn't it? So thoughts arise and then emotions become attached to them and this dictates how something is seen. It is subjective. Like seeing the glass half empty or half full, it is all in the perceptions of anything.
So who are you? what makes the " I " , that you think you have? Isn't it just thoughts? There is a body, ,5 senses, smelling, hearing, tasting, seeing and direct experience of those things. When thinking about these experiences , can you define an edge or stopping point to them? Does awareness stop at the immediate vicinity or does it stop at the stars? can you locate a separation point in any of this? Do the best you can with the questions and if any of them need further explanation, let me know.

Love, Metta

As we can't really be sure of what, if anything, animals and birds think, I'm not sure we can bring them into the self/no-self conundrum. Animals certainly have characteristics and personalities that are quite distinctive. Any natural history programme that has followed the lives of a particular group of animals clearly demonstrates this.

As to my own self......hmmmm. Essentially, I think yes 'I' must be a stream of thoughts, emotions and memories. You hear stories of people who have had a bump on the head and suffer complete amnesia. The person they thought they were completely vanishes overnight. I guess this shows the fragility of the self we cling to and believe to be so real and solid.

Our 5 bodily senses are there to provide environmental information to the nervous systems of each individual organism. I don't quite understand what you are implying Metta. Just because I can see a wide open field, doesn't mean I am the field. Being able to see the stars doesn't in any way make me one with them; quite the opposite actually. We are all completely separate and individual organisms on a cold and indifferent planet. My awareness of the world around me is vast, but limited by my 5 senses. If I was blind and deaf, unfortunately that awareness wouldn't extend beyond my skin.

Hi Bob,

As to my own self......hmmmm. Essentially, I think yes 'I' must be a stream of thoughts, emotions and memories. You hear stories of people who have had a bump on the head and suffer complete amnesia. The person they thought they were completely vanishes overnight. I guess this shows the fragility of the self we cling to and believe to be so real and solid.

Yes, it is just the story of Bob. There are events happening now and direct experience of them, the past no longer exists, except as electro chemical markers in the brain. Now exists right and the five senses and thought that were mentioned. No future because that is a mere projection of what was experienced already. People get depressed for example ,not because of what is happening right that moment usually it is a negative prediction of future events based on experiences that are no longer real.

Think of someone you haven't seen in awhile and see if you can get an absolutely clear picture of their face. Let me know how it goes.

As for the animals you are confusing personality with a sense of self. Even human babies do not have a sense of self until around 18 months of age. They look in the mirror and do not recognize themselves. I have never seen an animal be concerned about their appearance, whether they fit in and are accepted by their group, etc. :-)

We are all completely separate and individual organisms on a cold and indifferent planet. My awareness of the world around me is vast, but limited by my 5 senses. If I was blind and deaf, unfortunately that awareness wouldn't extend beyond my skin.

How do you know that awareness does not go beyond your skin?? Is there some proof you can give me? I think again we are confusing apples and oranges. When I say awareness does that mean only physical body? Is your physical body awareness? If it is how are you aware of anything beyond your skin? Consciousness or awareness doesn't that extend way beyond your skin. Even deaf or blind people are aware that they are surrounded by something, right?

Isn't cold and indifferent just a thought story??

Love, Metta