Guide needed for Gate excursion

[Choppy]

After giving it some more thought i suppose awareness could also be considered to be part of "I".

[Xain]

There is the sense that you are trying to mentally analyse these questions and form an answer.
Don't - This is a very simple process. Just answer the questions posed very simply from what is here right now in your experience.

What can you find that 'feels a strong responsibility'?
Since I've not gotten the realization yet, that "I" must be my character

Ok, how did you find it? When you found it what form did it take? Describe it to me.
'I haven't got a realisation' - What about that one - What is this 'I' that has not yet had a realisation?
What is the location and substance of that one? Can you find it? Or is there actually nothing there?

When you formulate it like this and i didn't spend any time to analyze it excessively, it came to me that the "I" that i think is worthless is my physical body

Ok, good - The physical body is here in experience. That is something we can work on.
So when you say 'I am worthless', you mean 'This physical body is worthless'?
Don't let me put words in your mouth - Is this what you mean?
Or would it be more accurate to say 'I am worthless' is just a statement, it doesn't really point to the physical body directly? If so, does it point to anything at all?

. . . concept of myself as a person - mind.

Interesting. 'A concept I have of myself'. Concepts come from the mind - A thought.
Really look into this one.
Would it be fair to say that the concept you have about yourself is that you are a body with a mind?
'I' is a thought I have about myself? Is this a fair statement?

The baggage i have in my memories with depressive situations and failures is causing me to reinforce that I'm worthless.

Interesting. Would it be fair to say that when you say 'baggage' that is a label, a thought about the thoughts that appear as memories? 'I am worthless' comes as a thought about the memory?

Is 'I am worthless' any more than just a thought? Does it have any real substance behind it to back it up?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Ok, how did you find it? When you found it what form did it take? Describe it to me.
'I haven't got a realisation' - What about that one - What is this 'I' that has not yet had a realisation?
What is the location and substance of that one? Can you find it? Or is there actually nothing there?

Since I've not gotten the realization yet, that "I" must be my character; I was sitting on the bus contemplating what you had said, and it occurred to me that the worthless thought is directed towards my physical body, and the concept of myself as a human being(mind), that's accumulated many previous negative experiences. There was an immediate feeling of slight happiness, it felt like some minor relief came from that conclusion. Such as there's nothing that says I can't be whatever i want from this point and onwards; may that be successful or failure.

'I haven't got a realisation' - What about that one - What is this 'I' that has not yet had a realisation?
What is the location and substance of that one? Can you find it? Or is there actually nothing there?; I suppose the 'I' here also points to the concept of myself as a person with a mind and physical body. And since this 'I' doesn't really exist, it would be impossible for 'me' to have a realization? Or perhaps it would be fair to say that there's a moment when the 'I' comes to the conclusion that it doesn't really exist, that it ceases to be in control?

So when you say 'I am worthless', you mean 'This physical body is worthless'?
Don't let me put words in your mouth - Is this what you mean?
Or would it be more accurate to say 'I am worthless' is just a statement, it doesn't really point to the physical body directly? If so, does it point to anything at all?

It points towards the mind's perceived self that's complete with body, personality and most of all the previous negative experiences that's been amassed since i was born. But as i mentioned, there's nothing that stops 'me' from changing this from this point and onwards: all those negative experiences are just memories, and why wouldn't i be able to create new memories that don't follow the same lousy pattern?

Interesting. 'A concept I have of myself'. Concepts come from the mind - A thought.
Really look into this one.
Would it be fair to say that the concept you have about yourself is that you are a body with a mind?
'I' is a thought I have about myself? Is this a fair statement?

Indeed, it is an often appearing thought I have of myself when I go through daily life. For example when i see another person doing something, i generally praise that person, and at the same time i do think that I'm worthless and that I would never ever be able to do something as good/useful as that person. This thought also appears when confronted by new or difficult tasks, i generally tend to think that I won't be able to do it and that I'm worthless.

Interesting. Would it be fair to say that when you say 'baggage' that is a label, a thought about the thoughts that appear as memories? 'I am worthless' comes as a thought about the memory?

Is 'I am worthless' any more than just a thought? Does it have any real substance behind it to back it up?

There seems to be that it doesn't really have any real substance to back it up, it is merely a thought about thoughts that appear as memories. And there's no need to pay it much attention. I believe i have been able to grasp this mentally, we'll just have to see if I'm able to put it into practice, and pay such thoughts less attention.

[Xain]

Hi again Choppy

There was quite a lot going on there! Wow! Nice work.
I'll try to break it down and simplify it a bit or we might start getting bogged down in dialogue.

There was an immediate feeling of slight happiness, it felt like some minor relief came from that conclusion. Such as there's nothing that says I can't be whatever i want from this point and onwards

Good - But what is here that can 'be something'.
Is there anything here that can 'be something' or is it just a thought?

Or perhaps it would be fair to say that there's a moment when the 'I' comes to the conclusion that it doesn't really exist, that it ceases to be in control?

What is this 'I' that would come to a conclusion that it doesn't exist? LOOK! Is there anything????

all the previous negative experiences that's been amassed since i was born

What is this 'I' that was born? Or does that 'I' point to a concept, a thought as well?

For example when i see another person doing something, i generally praise that person, and at the same time i do think that I'm worthless and that I would never ever be able to do something as good/useful as that person.

Is this nothing more than a thought? What is here that is 'worthless'? LOOK! Don't analyse or think - What here is worthless? Anything? Or just a thought? The 'mind's perceived self'?

There seems to be that it doesn't really have any real substance to back it up, it is merely a thought about thoughts that appear as memories. And there's no need to pay it much attention.

I think you're on to something :-)

I believe i have been able to grasp this mentally, we'll just have to see if I'm able to put it into practice

And what would put it into practise?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Good - But what is here that can 'be something'.
Is there anything here that can 'be something' or is it just a thought?

It's just a thought, and i guess that in a sense the perceived mind and body could be something else; for example, if 'I' wanted to be a fireman, i could go through an education, get some fireman gear. In the end all that has changed would be a different kind of awareness of the current moment. The now would have different kinds of thoughts, such as 'I'm now a fireman' and I'd have fireman gear on my body. But ultimately it would just be new thoughts, and new kinds of sensations in the now.

What is this 'I' that would come to a conclusion that it doesn't exist? LOOK! Is there anything????

I sat with closed eyes and really tried to look. What i found was just awareness. Pitch black sight, some sounds from the computer, breathing, sensations from my body. Perhaps a few thoughts as well. There is no proof that something else existed at that moment, except the ability to experience different types of perception.

What is this 'I' that was born? Or does that 'I' point to a concept, a thought as well?

It's merely a concept/memory since it doesn't happen in the now.
.....But hasn't all memories actually once been a current form of the now? Or is this hinting that all memories and thoughts are false and never actually happened. It's a difficult thing to grasp.

Is this nothing more than a thought? What is here that is 'worthless'? LOOK! Don't analyse or think - What here is worthless? Anything? Or just a thought? The 'mind's perceived self'?

It's just a thought. There's nothing here that is worthless.

And what would put it into practise?

Seeing thoughts for what they are, merely a different kind of shape that arise out of nothing, and return to nothing. Letting go of the attention to them should help lessen/stop them. When they arise it is probably helpful to try and focus on other things in the now, such as other types of perception?

[Xain]

It's just a thought, and i guess that in a sense the perceived mind and body could be something else; for example, if 'I' wanted to be a fireman, i could go through an education, get some fireman gear.

Is there an 'I' that could be a fireman? What form would that one take?
Don't gloss over this - Really look!

such as 'I'm now a fireman' and I'd have fireman gear on my body.

Is there an 'I' that owns a body?
If you said 'I am a fireman', what would this 'I' be that had become a fireman? Or is this yet just another thought?
If you said 'I am worthless' what would this 'I' be that was worthless? Just another thought?
Is there ANYTHING AT ALL HERE that is worthless? Don't stumble on this question - Really consider it.
If there is NOTHING here that is worthless, what does that ACTUALLY MEAN?

Seeing thoughts for what they are, merely a different kind of shape that arise out of nothing, and return to nothing. Letting go of the attention to them should help lessen/stop them. When they arise it is probably helpful to try and focus on other things in the now, such as other types of perception?

And what 'I' would do this?

We seem to have reached the point where we agree that 'I' is a mental concept, a thought.
What else is 'I'? Ask this to yourself. Is there an 'I' here? Is there a separate self here?
Is there a potential fireman here? Is there a worthless 'thing' here?
Is there an 'I' reading these words? Is there even an 'I' looking into this?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Is there an 'I' that owns a body?
If you said 'I am a fireman', what would this 'I' be that had become a fireman? Or is this yet just another thought?
If you said 'I am worthless' what would this 'I' be that was worthless? Just another thought?
Is there ANYTHING AT ALL HERE that is worthless? Don't stumble on this question - Really consider it.
If there is NOTHING here that is worthless, what does that ACTUALLY MEAN?

I came to the conclusion that my mind thinks that it owns the body, thus to be a fireman it requires the body. This would also be true if i said that 'I' am running, 'I' am eating, 'I' am myself; it needs the body.
If i lost the body, there would still be a sense of 'I', which would be the mind. Without the body i would still be able to think: 'I am thinking', 'I' am, 'I exist'. So that puts the 'I' apart from thinking, there's an 'I' that believes it can think.

The thought "'I' am worthless" could point towards the body and mind, or just the body, or just the mind.

And what 'I' would do this?

We seem to have reached the point where we agree that 'I' is a mental concept, a thought.
What else is 'I'? Ask this to yourself. Is there an 'I' here? Is there a separate self here?
Is there a potential fireman here? Is there a worthless 'thing' here?
Is there an 'I' reading these words? Is there even an 'I' looking into this?

I seem to believe that there's an 'I' here that that registers what i am reading, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching; something that puts everything together. Something that is aware of perception and thoughts. This 'I' has no physical reality, but it's here and aware of everything that happens unless I'm asleep.

[Xain]

I came to the conclusion that my mind thinks that it owns the body, thus to be a fireman it requires the body.

Coming to conclusion requires the mind, analysis and thought. This is not needed here.
There is a constant temptation to analyse and think of answer to these questions. This is standard practise for most people, and why this type of inquiry can be difficult.
Simply look into your Direct Experience and find the truth.

Let's side-step this for a moment and ask this.
If two men ('bodies') in plain clothes were stood in front of you and one of the 'bodies' was a fireman, how could you tell which body it was?

If i lost the body, there would still be a sense of 'I'

I don't think you actually know this from experience, do you? This is from analysis and thought (and projection of a future experience).
We could go down into a philosophical debate here, but we need to focus on what is true for you right here and now. Right now there is a body in your experience, yes? It is yours?

The thought "'I' am worthless" could point towards the body and mind, or just the body, or just the mind.

Ok, this is good. So 'I' COULD point to both or either the 'body' and the 'mind'.
'Could' is wishy-washy - We need to KNOW what it points to so we can proceed with this investigation.

We may have gone over this again, but it might be good to take a fresh look at it.
You state 'I am worthless'.
Ok, tell me what is here right this moment that is 'worthless'. Don't analyse or think.
Look into your experience with all the senses available and tell me what the 'I' is right now that is worthless.
Is it the body? Is it the mind? Is is both? Is it something else?

Something that is aware of perception and thoughts. This 'I' has no physical reality . . .

Ok - Good.
So this 'I' that is aware of perception and thoughts, how does it appear to you?
Obviously nothing physical like you say, so I assume it can't be seen, felt etc - But how do you perceive this 'I' in your experience, the one that is aware of perceptions and thoughts?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Let's side-step this for a moment and ask this.
If two men ('bodies') in plain clothes were stood in front of you and one of the 'bodies' was a fireman, how could you tell which body it was?

I couldn't, they'd be the same. Only if i could ask them questions, I'd be able to tell them apart.

I don't think you actually know this from experience, do you? This is from analysis and thought (and projection of a future experience).
We could go down into a philosophical debate here, but we need to focus on what is true for you right here and now. Right now there is a body in your experience, yes? It is yours?

Yes, there's a body in my experience and I'd go as far as saying it is mine. It is indeed impossible to know this from experience, it was through thought i came to that conclusion.

Ok, this is good. So 'I' COULD point to both or either the 'body' and the 'mind'.
'Could' is wishy-washy - We need to KNOW what it points to so we can proceed with this investigation.

We may have gone over this again, but it might be good to take a fresh look at it.
You state 'I am worthless'.
Ok, tell me what is here right this moment that is 'worthless'. Don't analyse or think.
Look into your experience with all the senses available and tell me what the 'I' is right now that is worthless.
Is it the body? Is it the mind? Is is both? Is it something else?

At the current moment there is nothing that is worthless, but when the thought appears it points towards the mind's perceived sense of self; name, body, past that is riddled with failure and depressive experiences.

Ok - Good.
So this 'I' that is aware of perception and thoughts, how does it appear to you?
Obviously nothing physical like you say, so I assume it can't be seen, felt etc - But how do you perceive this 'I' in your experience, the one that is aware of perceptions and thoughts?

When i use my senses, such as reading, then the mind interpret the words, and thoughts occur about what i read. When i hear something the mind immediately interpret it and label it as something, same with the other senses. So in reality there is no way i can show proof that the 'I' exist. Not even to myself. It is just something I've assumed to be since i was born, and something I've felt was logical. To have awareness, i thought there had to be an 'I' behind it all.

[Xain]

If two men ('bodies') in plain clothes were stood in front of you and one of the 'bodies' was a fireman, how could you tell which body it was?
I couldn't, they'd be the same. Only if i could ask them questions, I'd be able to tell them apart.

Good - Yes. So now 'mentally' you know which one is the fireman.
So, is the body the fireman? Or is the thought the fireman?

Yes, there's a body in my experience and I'd go as far as saying it is mine.

Good. Ok - Now really look into this one, it is important.
If the body is yours, then there must be an owner.
What is this 'I' that owns a body? Or, like in the fireman example, it is just a thought?

Ok, tell me what is here right this moment that is 'worthless'.
At the current moment there is nothing that is worthless, but when the thought appears it points towards the mind's perceived sense of self; name, body, past that is riddled with failure and depressive experiences.

Really good. Ok, so right now, there is nothing that is 'worthless' other than the perceived sense of self which is simply a thought.
Is there anything 'real' that is worthless at this precise moment, other than just a thought about something being worthless?

When i use my senses, such as reading, then the mind interpret the words, and thoughts occur about what i read.

Do you experience a mind interpreting words when it happens? Or is there just 'interpreting words' happening.
When thoughts occur is there an 'I' that has them? Or do thoughts just occur?

When i hear something the mind immediately interpret it and label it as something, same with the other senses.

Do you experience a mind? Or is there just 'thoughts' coming and going?

So in reality there is no way i can show proof that the 'I' exist. Not even to myself.

What is 'myself'? How could 'myself' known that 'myself' does not exist?
Is there a 'myself'? Or is this nothing but a thought as well. A thought about a thought?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

So, is the body the fireman? Or is the thought the fireman?

The fireman is a thought.

What is this 'I' that owns a body? Or, like in the fireman example, it is just a thought?

It's just a thought.

Is there anything 'real' that is worthless at this precise moment, other than just a thought about something being worthless?

No, there's nothing at this moment which is worthless.

When thoughts occur is there an 'I' that has them? Or do thoughts just occur?

There's no 'I' in the thoughts, they just occur when reading for example.

Is there a 'myself'? Or is this nothing but a thought as well. A thought about a thought?

It is indeed just a form of thought, thoughts about thoughts. In the current moment it does not exist.

[Xain]

The current moment . . . yes indeed . . . the current moment, the 'now' is all there is.
This does appear to be some sort of concession though, so let's go into it.

So, is the body the fireman? Or is the thought the fireman?
The fireman is a thought.
What is this 'I' that owns a body? Or, like in the fireman example, it is just a thought?
It's just a thought.

Yes. So a 'fireman' only exists when it is thought about. There is nothing here at all that is 'a fireman' other than just a thought about it.
What about 'I'? Is 'I' ever anything real. Or does 'I' only ever appear when it is thought about?

Is there anything 'real' that is worthless at this precise moment, other than just a thought about something being worthless?
No, there's nothing at this moment which is worthless.

So perhaps there are thoughts about the apparent past. About an 'I' that was worthless.
Is the past real? Or does it only ever appear as a thought?

There is nothing here at the moment that is worthless. Good.
Has there EVER been anything that is worthless, or were there just thoughts about something being worthless?

Is there a 'myself'? Or is this nothing but a thought as well. A thought about a thought?
It is indeed just a form of thought, thoughts about thoughts. In the current moment it does not exist.

When DOES it exist then? Maybe . . . . only when you think about it?
When you don't think about it . . . what?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

Yes. So a 'fireman' only exists when it is thought about. There is nothing here at all that is 'a fireman' other than just a thought about it.
What about 'I'? Is 'I' ever anything real. Or does 'I' only ever appear when it is thought about?

I can never feel the 'I' in the current moment unless it is thought about, beforehand i had just assumed it was here since i believed a central agent was needed that put/ordered everything together, such as perception.

So perhaps there are thoughts about the apparent past. About an 'I' that was worthless.
Is the past real? Or does it only ever appear as a thought?

There is nothing here at the moment that is worthless. Good.
Has there EVER been anything that is worthless, or were there just thoughts about something being worthless?

The past does always reappear as thoughts, but it has at one moment been real? But it has long since become a distant memory which only can appear as a thought. The worthless thought serves no positive function other than making me remember past experiences, and hinder me in the current moment when it decides to appear.

That something is worthless is a label of the mind, in the current moment there can just be awareness, and nothing is ultimately worthless/success or similar description.

When DOES it exist then? Maybe . . . . only when you think about it?
When you don't think about it . . . what?

The 'I' is only there when thought about, when there's no thoughts in the mind, then everything is just awareness of perception and the 'I' can be found nowhere.

[Xain]

The worthless thought serves no positive function other than making me remember past experiences, and hinder me in the current moment when it decides to appear.

Ok, there is an 'I' operating that can make you remember past experiences.
Right now, remember a past experience.
Look into and examine your Direct Experience while holding that thought.

What is this 'I' that remembers?
What is this 'I' that is hindered by thoughts?

The 'I' is only there when thought about, when there's no thoughts in the mind, then everything is just awareness of perception and the 'I' can be found nowhere.

Is 'I' awareness? Don't think about it or analyse it - LOOK - What is this 'I' right now that is aware?

Xain ♥

[Choppy]

What is this 'I' that remembers?
What is this 'I' that is hindered by thoughts?

The mind created sense of self is the one that remembers, the very same is felt hindered by the thoughts. Thoughts that make an impact on the concept of self.

Is 'I' awareness? Don't think about it or analyse it - LOOK - What is this 'I' right now that is aware?

When sitting down in a calm manner, without thoughts, there is just perception. There is just seeing, hearing, smell, touch. There's no need for an 'I', the head just feels empty.

Or if the existence of awareness/perception is required to have an 'I', then the empty space behind the eyes, or the empty space right next to sounds, smell, touch must be the 'I'. An 'I' that is indescribable and mysterious.