Thread for LOC600+++

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

I hope you are well.

To continue with the 'second question'.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Actually I seem to be really ponderous at this. So the first part of the second question!

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is

At this moment I am sitting at my computer looking out my window and up at some thick white clouds in the sky. Behind them I see clear blue sky.

From this perspective the clouds appear solid and barrier like.

They seem real - if I was to run at them I might hurt myself - like running into a wall. That is real.

Perhaps I could go to them and touch them and confirm my solid barrier wall perceptions?

But I know from experience that if got closer to them I wouldn't touch anything solid or wall like. I wouldn't be able to touch anything.

Perhaps I would feel a fine cooling mist on my skin. But nothing solid. Nothing wall like.

The illusion of self is like those clouds - appearing real and solid from afar.

But when investigated in detail those qualities don't exist in any real sense.

I am reminded of what advanced scientific theory suggests about the solid world of perception.

A table can be described as solid and real on one level of perception but if you go investigate it with a powerful microscope and go down to its subatomic detail, you don't find anything at all solid - no billiard ball atoms, no definite structure.

Just a so-called Field of potentiality - a space where nothing that can easily be defined in any three dimensional terms.

The illusion of self is a distraction from that which is underneath it or a priori to it – the silent, spacious, non-linear context of consciousness.

End of first part of second question.

When are you of to the States?

Hugs

RB x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Second question continued.

When it starts

I don’t know.

It seems to start automatically when I forget the Liberation-unleashed teachings.

How it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

I have been sitting with this for the last week or so and I notice that I tend to get wordy and over philosophical with it, so I would like to keep my answer short but authentic here.

‘It’ comes into existence because on some level I desire for it to come into existence.

I also have a fear associated with ‘it’- I think that if I don’t experience it I will die.

That is about as fully as I can describe it without writing a philosophical treatise on it.

Hugs

RB x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Somehow my last reply didn't get to you.

I sent it last night.

I have completely deleted it from my word document.

It was pretty short - after deliberating on the answer and tending to write a philosophical treatise.

Just found it - thank goodness!

Second question continued.

When it starts

I don’t know.

It seems to start automatically when I forget the Liberation-unleashed teachings.

How it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

I have been sitting with this for the last week or so and I notice that I tend to get wordy and over philosophical with it, so I would like to keep my answer short but authentic here.

‘It’ comes into existence because on some level I desire for it to come into existence.

I also have a fear associated with ‘it’- I think that if I don’t experience it I will die.

That is about as fully as I can describe it without writing a philosophical treatise on it.

Hugs

RB x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Second question continued.

When it starts

I don’t know.

It seems to start automatically when I forget the Liberation-unleashed teachings.

How it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

I have been sitting with this for the last week or so and I notice that I tend to get wordy and over philosophical with it, so I would like to keep my answer short but authentic here.

‘It’ comes into existence because on some level I desire for it to come into existence.

I also have a fear associated with ‘it’- I think that if I don’t experience it I will die.

That is about as fully as I can describe it without writing a philosophical treatise on it.

Hugs

RB x

[jowate]

Hi Rb,

Sorry for the delay, I thought what you wrote is fine and forgot I was supplying you with the questions one by one! (A few other things have been happening as well ...)

The third one is:

How does it feel to see this? [i.e. see through the illusion of separate self] What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Third question

How does it feel to see this? [i.e. see through the illusion of separate self] What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels great! Adjectives like liberating, free, relaxed, release, lack of struggle, ease and slightly disorientating (from getting used to a new way of being/processing experience).

I feel that a new phase of spiritual unfoldment is initiating in ‘my’ being. I feel very relaxed and curious about this. It truly feels that there is ‘Nowhere to go and No one to go there.’

I feel very grateful for the teachings and every body involved

I feel that I want to do all that I can to strengthen or at least to keep reminding myself of the insight, I do this because I still do find myself energizing a sense of self out of habit. To this end I revisit some of the teachings from the Enlightened quotes App every day and hold them in mind during the day as much as possible.

I feel like my previous spiritual efforts (particularly in meditation and study) were ‘me’ trying to get somewhere.
This was despite being familiar with the ‘You are already there’ teachings.
Previous to the LU teachings I didn’t feel like I was there and therefore I made my efforts.
Now I still don’t think I am there, but ‘there’ doesn’t seem to matter as much.

I am really enjoying and appreciating what is ‘here’ and I am particularly grateful to have a rational way to accessing inner silence – which is enough for me at the moment.

What is different?

All of the above.

I look forward to the next question.

Hugs

RB x

[LOC600+++]

PS I would like to finish all the questions before you go of to the States. x

[jowate]

Hi Rb,

Sorry for the delay again ... lots happening (you may have heard from Sp). I'm actually off to Spain for 2 weeks from Monday, so I suggest the best thing is if I simply give you all the remaining questions now, and you can take your time over those 2 weeks with them, then I'll review and submit them for other guides to have a butchers at when I'm back here between Spain and the States. Hope that's ok.

A couple of observations on your last one.

I feel that I want to do all that I can to strengthen or at least to keep reminding myself of the insight, I do this because I still do find myself energizing a sense of self out of habit.

Note that this 'energizing' a sense of self is still not 'self' - these habits are likely to play out for a long time yet, but the fundamental seeing-knowing that the separate self doesn't exist is 'found' whenever it is looked for. So what you're doing there is ok, but it may not be necessary if you just fully acknowledge that the separate self has been seen through.

Previous to the LU teachings I didn’t feel like I was there and therefore I made my efforts.
Now I still don’t think I am there, but ‘there’ doesn’t seem to matter as much.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here ... could you expand on it a bit more?

Ok that's all, so, here are the other questions:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Sorry for the delay again…

Absolutely no problem brother. Yes SP and Andrew Black filled me in on the generalities. Sounds like major Dukkha for you. I send you my best wishes and support. It there is anything at all I can do to help just let me know.

I'm actually off to Spain for 2 weeks from Monday….. Hope that's ok.

Absolutely. Thanks.

Note that this 'energizing' a sense of self is still not 'self' - these habits are likely to play out for a long time yet, but the fundamental seeing-knowing that the separate self doesn't exist is 'found' whenever it is looked for. So what you're doing there is ok, but it may not be necessary if you just fully acknowledge that the separate self has been seen through.

Thanks for that feedback. It is extremely helpful - the separate self was sneaking in again and I was resisting 'it', thus creating a polarity and subsequent conflict in my psyche.

Previous to the LU teachings I didn’t feel like I was there and therefore I made my efforts.
Now I still don’t think I am there, but ‘there’ doesn’t seem to matter as much.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here ... could you expand on it a bit more?

Yup.

Really this is touching on the biggest change since engaging with the LU teachings.

Before LU
Over the last 26 years, the overall thrust of my spiritual strivings and efforts (particularly in meditation and study) were ‘me - the separate self' trying to 'get somewhere' in the sense of improving and developing 'myself.' towards Enlightenment.

I made these efforts despite being familiar with the ‘You are already there/Enlightened ’ teachings.
Since I absolutely and totally didn’t feel like I was at all Enlightened I made my efforts.

Now
I still don’t think I am Enlightened but the idea of making efforts to improve or develop have been completely re-contextualized - how can you improve something that doesn't exist?

What seems to have been revealed to me through the LU teachings is that the ongoing fundamental substrate of experience seems complete and total in itself and always has been with no need of a 'separate me' to improve it.

How could I improve the sky?

The 'there' that I was striving to 'get to' no longer has any meaning for me.

OK. I hope all this is clear.

I will answer the other questions over the next 2 weeks to be posted for your perusal when you return from Spain.

Enjoy your activities and I hope the sun shines at just the right temperature for you.

Hugs

RB x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

SP texted me last night and stimulated me to just finish the questions and get on the aftercare forum.

So, if you have time before you go please review my answers to the last 3 questions.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I 'got' the liberating potential of the teachings when I glanced through the Enlightened quotes app at Andrews a few weeks ago. This started my investigation in earnest.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, 'I' do not decide, intend, choose, control events in Life. There is no 'I' to decide. 'I' do not make anything happen.

This revelation is a major relief for me!

If I was to give some verbal explanation to a truely mysterious process - everything in Life (including my physical actions and my thought processes) happens spontaneously and impersonally as an evolutionary emergence from all conditions in the Universe throughout all of time.

There is no need to bring in an 'I' or 'separate self' to explain this. 'I' do not 'cause' anything.

6) Anything to add?

There is no 'cause' of anything.
Life is an impersonal event.

Thanks so much to all of you at LU. Special thanks to Elena and IIona

Hugs to all

RB x

[jowate]

Hi RB,

I think number 4 is asking whether there was a particular moment of 'getting it', and what led to that. Maybe that's what you mean, but it's not entirely clear. The other answers are good, as far as I'm concerned, so if you can respond to this, I'll be able to put it up for other guides to review and maybe ask questions ...

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Thanks for taking the time to handle me.

I imagine your schedule is very full at the moment.

whether there was a particular moment of 'getting it', and what led to that?

The particular moment of 'getting it' was reading the Enlightened quotes app. I got what the whole thing was about there and then. I knew that I just needed to take some time to learn and apply the details.

There was no particular moment after this. It was an incremental 'grains of sand on a scale' phenomena. I slowly tipped into a 'selfless' place.

My process was one of re - reading the Gateless Gate over a couple of weeks.

A comment from Elena or IIona would stand out for me/excite me/ or inspire me in some way. Usually I had the habit of writing this down and contemplating it for the day.

Any comments that suggested that I had no control or that there was 'no one' to do anything seemed to particularly resonate with me.

Yesterday when you said that my tendency to selfing (I mentioned in a previous post) is just another illusion really helped me.

I keep contemplating the teachings even though I have the knowingness that I am 'through'

I hope this suffices for an answer.

RB x

[jowate]

Thanks, great, I'll submit this to other guides now ... be in touch
T.x

[jowate]

Hi Rb,

Ok, here's a response via another guide: Can you give examples from your experience of how you don't control anything? We need to get a sense of how this 'manifests' in 'your' direct experience. Thanks!

T.x

[LOC600+++]

Hi T,

Thanks to that other guide for the opportunity to answer in a little more depth.

Somehow this process of writing is strengthening the revelation.

Can you give examples from your experience of how you don't control anything?

Here 'I' am at 'my' computer. 'I' am tapping the key board to make meaningful letters and words on the screen.

Question: What is controlling my fingers moving? Or how are my fingers moving?

Before LU

I would have got into a mental conundrum along the lines of 'somehow my mind is making my fingers move, just exactly how this works I am not sure…etc, etc'.

With eventual exhaustion of valuable neurotransmitter supplies.

After LU

Issues of control and causality have been re contextualized.

Here 'I' am at 'my' computer. 'I' am tapping the key board to make meaningful letters and words on the screen.

Question: What is controlling my fingers moving? Or how are my fingers moving?

Re contexualization

'What' is controlling my fingers moving?

There is no 'what' controlling my fingers moving. The movement does not actually require a 'what' as a causal or control agent. The fingers are moving.

The 'what' of 'my' mind does not exist as an agent of change or control.

How are my fingers moving?

I don't know. I don't need to know. I could speculate but I don't feel the need to at this juncture.

I am very very happily letting go thinking about such issues which frankly have been a taxing, energy draining pre occupation with me for years.

'I' do not control anything, whatsoever and never have.

Gloria in Excelsis Deo!

Thanks to all.

RB x