Looking for a guide

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

I keep looking. This morning when I woke up I had an ache in my back where I'd been lying funny. It didn't feel like It was me that was in pain, just that there was pain. I tried to step back to see who it was that was witnessing this ache, but of course found nothing I could latch onto.

So as i search I get these instances of distance from the "I" feeling. I don't really feel any different, though. Any pointers as to how I should proceed?

David

[kvotski]

Hi David:

There is no where to go my friend. Just ask what is this I that wants to proceed? Is it really there or is it just a thought that would be replaced by another about food or sex or music soon?

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

When I said earlier that I don't feel any different I find that isn't strictly true. I've just returned from shopping in town. As I walked round the mall I seemed to be in what I can best describe as a bubble of spaciousness, that I was witnessing this body and these thoughts as they walked around. And whenever I caught sight of myself in a shop mirror there was a kind of distance between the sight of my reflection and the feeling that it was me. I wasn't even annoyed when another car cut me up on the way home. Who exactly was it that was cut up? Me? It didn't feel like it. I'm getting less sure of what exactly the word "me" refers to.

You asked what is it that wants to proceed with this process? I'm going to explore that question (or is it just that the question will be explored? I'm getting less sure!)

David

[kvotski]

Just one pointer in your search. Lay down your expectations on what to find. What if there is nothing to find? Best to just let whatever comes, arrive. All of us seekers have this romantic notion of a pop. Buddha never talked of a flash, an eureka neither did Ramana nor nisargadatta. It is this illusory I that wants something. What if we find out that there is nothing wanting something. And how can you possibly build an expectation around nothing? So, please don't.

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

There is no where to go my friend. Just ask what is this I that wants to proceed?

I do this and find this "I" is a thought, a feeling. Quite a compelling one, but like all thoughts and feelings destined to pass. It can be witnessed.

let me plant a seed for you. If it ain't there may be it ain't there, it never was and it will never be.

I feel like I've been thrown into a ball pit and told to look for a gold block. Everyone keeps telling me there is no gold block and yet I keep looking, although I don't expect to find anything. Intellectually I understand there is no self to be discovered but don't feel it in the same way as the no Santa understanding. What's to be done, keep looking and not finding until the understanding is realised? Or would that just be the false self realising it doesn't exist? Does that idea even make sense? I'm happy to keep playing in the ball pit as long as that's what this process demands.

Just one pointer in your search. Lay down your expectations on what to find.

Message received!

Thanks for the input so far. I seem to have spent the weekend looking inwards! I shall keep asking what it is that wants to proceed with this process.

Regards,
David

[kvotski]

Hello David,

I feel like I've been thrown into a ball pit and told to look for a gold block. Everyone keeps telling me there is no gold block and yet I keep looking, although I don't expect to find anything. Intellectually I understand there is no self to be discovered but don't feel it in the same way as the no Santa understanding. What's to be done, keep looking and not finding until the understanding is realised? Or would that just be the false self realising it doesn't exist? Does that idea even make sense? I'm happy to keep playing in the ball pit as long as that's what this process demands.

Do you see the power of this illusion? No one has asked you to look for the gold block. The question is to ascertain for yourself that there is NO gold block. There is no self that can realize anything. There is a body and mind that is under the delusion that it is run by a self. That body and mind has to see through the ruse, the false conditioning, the non-existence of Santa. As long as you believe that you are playing, you will keep searching for you. Clarity may come from exhaustion, sudden insight or in a dream. Can't be foretold.

Even after you are 100% sure that the self is an illusion, old habits like Santa in the red suit will keep appearing. But you would and already know better.

Best wishes.

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

This feels like a battle. I sit or lie looking for the thing that wants to continue with this process. Zazen it ain't! I find thoughts and feelings but they're not what I'm looking for. So I try and look deeper and end up in a sort of meditative state (which I suppose isn't the idea). In that state when I think my name I can't find anything in there that answers to those words. Which seems to be the point

The question I have for you, Sunil, is how do I become convinced that the thoughts and feeling that are witnessed aren't me? They've done the function as me all day and they certainly exist, because they can be seen. What's the difference between there being no-self, and something that does the job of the self?

David

[kvotski]

The question I have for you, Sunil, is how do I become convinced that the thoughts and feeling that are witnessed aren't me? They've done the function as me all day and they certainly exist, because they can be seen. What's the difference between there being no-self, and something that does the job of the self?

So the reason your mind, which is a thought, says to you that the witnessed feelings and thoughts are you is because the mind has done the function as me. Is the mind you? then you or self is just a bunch of thoughts...

Look at each function and really see if it is the thought or feeling that made it happen. Try not to lump all functions into one. Take one, like walking, deciding to go somewhere etc. then really see what made the action possible? Did a thought or feeling make you type? Did the self order the hamstrings to lift your leg for a walk? Was the decision to go shopping made by a thought called self? Or was it the body's call for groceries which raised a thought and the body followed? Legs did the walking but the I thought took the credit in a nanosecond.

Yes, at this time there appears to be a self operating within you but is it real or just a label? We are not saying it is right or wrong to label thoughts as me. We are not saying thoughts are not real but the contents of these thoughts, when verifiable by the senses like a table, music, fragrance can be real but when the content is an unicorn, a Santa or self, it is an illusion.

[Hector's ghost]

So when I drive my car it is the body that's doing all the work, but a thought which identifies itself as the self takes all the credit.

[kvotski]

Exactly.

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

Wow! I did what you suggested this morning and looked at one function, in this case driving to work. And guess what? The body was doing all the work, the self had nothing to do with it. It was a revelation. I was moving along in the traffic and the self was completely separate from every manoeuvre I made. My body knew exactly how to drive on its own without the need for any input from what I might call the "I".

So then I opened the investigation out to driving and hearing, listening to the music on the stereo at the same time as being aware of what might be driving the car. It was even more of a revelation. Music was happening in awareness (while the body was still getting on with its driving thing) but what I have always thought of as myself had absolutely nothing to do with it. But how could it? It's nothing but a collection of thoughts. Thoughts can't listen and they certainly can't drive.


David

[kvotski]

Bingo.

So, David have you seen through the illusion of self?

Are there any remaining doubts?

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Sunil,

I'm note sure if I'm through yet. How would I know?

I think i can see that what is perceived as the self is a collection of thoughts and feelings, and that this collection isn't running the show. However, after seeing that the body was driving the car this morning, and that music was being listened to without any help from self, I then went to work and largely got wrapped up in these thoughs as I did my job. I only "remembered" to look through the illusion during quiet times when I wasn't teaching. Is this supposed to be a 24/7 kinda thing?

If I think about it I feel split, like my body and mind have fallen out and decided to do their own thing! Thing is, if I ask myself am I liberated I'm no longer sure which part of myself is being asked. It doesn't really make sense to ask the question anymore. The character called David certainly can't be liberated. How could he?

Are there any remaining doubts?

I don't know. Maybe.

David

[kvotski]

Hi David,

I went back to the first post by you here. There were some expectations you had about seeing " no self". Is being in a no self mind set 24/7, one of those? Please look inside if there are other expectations and review in light of what you know to be true.

Let us also confirm what you know to be true? What are the remaining doubts? Not when you forget but when you do remember, is David an individual, a person or just an illusion, a name, a label given by thoughts?

No two liberation can be alike. There are seven billion bodies with billions of different experiences, backgrounds, parents. Statistically that makes each a unique set of thought construct labelled by a name. Each will find in his own way what the truth is. But each can find the same truth that is there is no self.

[kvotski]

And, you are right, character named David can not be liberated, since the character just does not exist....