Thread for Gunasara

[Gunasara]

Oh dear... Stories proliferate ... Endless cycles ... No storyteller

[Gunasara]

mind has gone into nonsense mode tonight... i shall do some yoga

[jowate]

Hi G,

Ok – look at this when you come out of ‘nonsense mode’ :)

when i look 'out of the corner of my eye' i notice 'gunasara' manifesting as a cross identification of bodily sensation with an idea and image of the body, combined with bodily sensations around the eyes with images of 'my' face and 'my' point in space, combined with the sound of 'my' voice narrating either the visual landscape (external) or mental activity (inner)... 'gunasara' thinks he is a complex entity which can be directed and can effect activity in a world out there...

You could do well to look carefully at all these separately: is ‘me’ a sensation? Is it an idea? A body image? Space? A sound / voice? A thought? Do any of these separately constitute a persisting, substantial, separate self-entity?

And assuming they don’t (but don’t assume – look– what makes the whole apparently more than the sum of the parts?

Is it anything more than a belief in (thoughts about) an illusory entity?

awareing overcomes looking/not-looking difficulties...

Yes, good if that is really seen.

who/what is awareing... 'gunasara' thinks he looks but i don't think he thinks he is awareness... that seems bigger...

So the thoughts that identify themselves as ‘me’/ ‘gunasara’ are identifying with awareness. The next bit is a little convoluted – let’s look at it this way: is awareness in any way personal? Does it have any qualities of what you conventionally regard as personal?

T.

[Gunasara]

You could do well to look carefully at all these separately:

so if i don't drop into a meditative state, the following answers apply

is ‘me’ a sensation?

there are sensations I feel and you don't... so 'me' is not a sensation but sensations are mine, at an everyday level... whilst they are fleeting, they are also predictable and repeatable

Is it an idea?

there are many ideas of 'me' but they are all pretty flimsy, incomplete and easy to dissociate from... there may be a deeper personal myth or daemon or some such thing but that is a job of detection i have somewhat got bored of

A body image?

there is a carefully cultivated idea/map/image of the body which has become more and more accurate at predicting movement and sensation producing activity... but I know it to be an approximation

Space?

well i'm here for the moment...i kind of rent this space until my bones dry up... of course depending on the reference point the space i occupy has probably moved many miles since i started typing... but don't tread on my toes

A sound / voice?

again the voice has been cultivated to convey a great variety of meanings and emotions and other stuff... it is familiar and wise in its way... it is my voice not your voice

A thought?

hmm... i don't trust thoughts very much... they came and go like the wind... but sitting behind them is the chooser who selects and herds the appropriate thoughts and ruthlessly dismembers all the many and highly varied thoughts that are not to be allowed headroom

Do any of these separately constitute a persisting, substantial, separate self-entity?

a barometer of 'my' feelings
a (never yet seen) 'me' flag with a lion or some such
a map of 'my' muscles, bones, chi, wind and flabby bits
a grid reference for a 'me' dot in the universe
a primitive binary 'my' mental state selection swich

Nope... no persisting substantial separate self-entity that I can see...

what makes the whole apparently more than the sum of the parts?


a kind of multimedia effect... they are very unconvincing as a seperate self on their own... and if they are 'looked' at in meditation they become even less convincing... but together, even though the story is pretty weak... it seems they can convince 'me' to believe in them

Is it anything more than a belief in (thoughts about) an illusory entity?

Very probably not...

[Gunasara]

awareing overcomes looking/not-looking difficulties...

Yes, good if that is really seen.

for several years i have found as much juice and insights for my life in my low-brow distractions, as in my cultivated practise... off the cushion is my lifestyle choice... it is good to remind myself to resist the divide... even though sitting practise has been gaining ground again

who/what is awareing... 'gunasara' thinks he looks but i don't think he thinks he is awareness... that seems bigger...

So the thoughts that identify themselves as ‘me’/ ‘gunasara’ are identifying with awareness. The next bit is a little convoluted – let’s look at it this way: is awareness in any way personal? Does it have any qualities of what you conventionally regard as personal?

Awareness is in no way personal and i don't regard it in that way... the personal is contained within awareness and awareness shines through the personal...

[jowate]

Hi G,

Some of these responses seem to have come out of direct experience, some seem a bit more conceptual. And there seems to be doubt remaining:

... but together, even though the story is pretty weak... it seems they can convince 'me' to believe in them

A couple of things:

G: is ‘me’ a sensation?

T: there are sensations I feel and you don't... so 'me' is not a sensation but sensations are mine, at an everyday level... whilst they are fleeting, they are also predictable and repeatable

And

again the voice has been cultivated to convey a great variety of meanings and emotions and other stuff... it is familiar and wise in its way... it is my voice not your voice

The bits in bold are from mental inference, not direct experience. In any case, they don’t have a bearing on what we are investigating here, i.e. ‘is there any kind of self-entity here?’

So the thing to look at is: are the body sensations here in direct experience known to be caused or experienced by a self-entity? Is the sound of the voice known to be caused or experienced by a self-entity. Can any self-entity be found here, in direct experience?

Then:

hmm... i don't trust thoughts very much... they came and go like the wind... but sitting behind them is the chooser who selects and herds the appropriate thoughts and ruthlessly dismembers all the many and highly varied thoughts that are not to be allowed headroom

Is this ‘chooser’ experienced directly? Is this really what’s going on with thoughts? Or is it a case of thoughts arising from other thoughts?

Do ‘you’ have any direct experience of sifting through thoughts before they arise in order to ‘select’ or ‘dismember’? Look: is this direct experience or another mental interpretation?

Is it anything more than a belief in (thoughts about) an illusory entity?

Very probably not...

So more direct exploration needed here to change that ‘very probably’ into a ‘definitely’!

Awareness is in no way personal and i don't regard it in that way... the personal is contained within awareness and awareness shines through the personal...

Good observation. And if thoughts are simply another arising in awareness, can thoughts ‘think’ or ‘perceive’ or be ‘the thinker’?

T.

[Gunasara]

T: is ‘me’ a sensation?

G: there are sensations I feel and you don't... so 'me' is not a sensation but sensations are mine, at an everyday level... whilst they are fleeting, they are also predictable and repeatable

And

again the voice has been cultivated to convey a great variety of meanings and emotions and other stuff... it is familiar and wise in its way... it is my voice not your voice

The bits in bold are from mental inference, not direct experience. In any case, they don’t have a bearing on what we are investigating here, i.e. ‘is there any kind of self-entity here?’

OK. The voice one is quite superficial... and I can see that there is no 'my voice' in direct experience...

the sensations stuff has surprised me... whilst I was speaking from 'everyday' kind of awareness, I have looked a bit deeper and realised that sensations are very quickly filtered through an idea of 'my body and its parts... i can see that sensations directly experienced have no labels or location

So the thing to look at is: are the body sensations here in direct experience known to be caused or experienced by a self-entity? Is the sound of the voice known to be caused or experienced by a self-entity. Can any self-entity be found here, in direct experience?

i'm not sure that a body can be found in direct experience but i still feel like i'm the director of the movie, the chooser choosing what to look at

but i can't find any evidence for that belief

Is this ‘chooser’ experienced directly? Is this really what’s going on with thoughts? Or is it a case of thoughts arising from other thoughts?

Do ‘you’ have any direct experience of sifting through thoughts before they arise in order to ‘select’ or ‘dismember’? Look: is this direct experience or another mental interpretation?

OK... so i don't know how stuff happens now

if thoughts are simply another arising in awareness, can thoughts ‘think’ or ‘perceive’ or be ‘the thinker’?

well thoughts can arise from other thoughts and become a train of thoughts

but that isn't direct experience

and i do operate as if there is a 'thinker', 'chooser', 'director'

and i cannot see how there can be one in direct experience

but i continue to operate as if the is a 'thinker', chooser', 'feeler', 'doer'

strange

[Gunasara]

but i continue to operate as if the is a 'thinker', chooser', 'feeler', 'doer'

strange

moments of surprise when choices are made and things are done without me...

[jowate]

Hi G,

the sensations stuff has surprised me... whilst I was speaking from 'everyday' kind of awareness, I have looked a bit deeper and realised that sensations are very quickly filtered through an idea of 'my body and its parts... i can see that sensations directly experienced have no labels or location

Good observing!

but i still feel like i'm the director of the movie, the chooser choosing what to look at

but i can't find any evidence for that belief

Hmmm – so what do you call holding a belief for which there is no evidence? (Clue: it’s one of the fetters!)

Look at this question in your experience: what emotional investment / payback do you get by holding onto an unsubstantiated belief?

OK... so i don't know how stuff happens now

‘Don’t know’ is an excellent ‘place’ to be for this – thinking we know is delusion; knowing we don’t know is (at least the opening to) knowing-seeing … aka wisdom.

and i do operate as if there is a 'thinker', 'chooser', 'director'

and i cannot see how there can be one in direct experience

but i continue to operate as if the is a 'thinker', chooser', 'feeler', 'doer'

strange

Looks like you’ve got yourself a koan there. And the ‘answer’ to all koans is only in direct experience …

Look there …

T.

[Gunasara]

this morning...

i have been thinking that i seem to be oscillating between ordinary awareness that operates under the belief of self and then diving into dissolving everything in varying levels of real or imagined sunya/blue sky/bare awareness ... there is a middle place which is ordinary everyday awareness with no self belief...

this morning i sat systematically looking for the self in each sphere of awareness ... nothing could be found...

however, i also know various verses by heart... and i couldn't find them either...

something about memory is giving me doubt... will try and dig out what it is

[jowate]

Hi G,

there is a middle place which is ordinary everyday awareness with no self belief...

That’s the place to ‘look’.

Ok, let me know what you come up with around memory.

Does memory point to, contain or otherwise embody and entity?

T.

[jowate]

I mean 'an entity?'

[Gunasara]

once again a morning spent watching self as images, self as sensations, self as ideas... all dissolving as they are seen...

for a while self was held as presence, sense of aliveness but again that gave way and moved on...

memory is curious... on one level it is simply ideas presenting themselves in experience... but the quality of pastness suggests they come from somewhere... the idea of a storehouse arises... which is an idea about ideas...

the content of one memory is about a time when i was doing more yoga and memories arose from intense body sensations emerging in meditation and breaking into consciousness as a surprising show of bright lights and visual memories, often very early memories in the story of self...

even if memories are held somehow, somewhere, it is a psycho-mechanism, it is not self-entity

and this is all ideas...

nothing in my direct experience places ideas or memories anywhere other than arising here and now...

[Gunasara]

this morning the self was discomfort and doubt...

as i look at my wireless laptop... there is no delivery man... i can look under it, open it up, stare at the screen, look behind it... nothing... but if i push the enter button something happens... an expensive buddhist book is delivered to my place of work... my bank account goes further into the red... nothing is usually seen... but i infer that there is a delivery man... and that he needs paying...

just so... several years ago i decided to learn 'the praise to the 21 taras'... repeating it day after day... and in direct experience i can not 'see' it... i can look at feelings, emotions, sensations, labelling, thinking... i can see nothing... but if i begin the first line... it all arrives... and my spiritual bank account feels very full...

what can i infer from this...

is there an unconscious...
a storehouse...
a matrix of cause and effect...

that i am not sensitive to and therefore cannot 'see' in direct experience...

and if so... could the self abide there?

i feel like a blind man... angry that everybody's clapping the light show

[Gunasara]

hmm... and then there is a pretty clear experience of identification with thoughts, ideas and sensations... perceived as a self story... well within the bounds of my sensitivity ... within direct experience...

hmm...