The Gate

What would happen if you allowed your self to soften by pausing, opening up and relaxing, trust what emerges, and then allow yourself to listen deeply? (perhaps do this tiny insight dialogue why you are on retreat)

can you see that anger, aversion, fear are energies arising. They become painful when the illusion of self begins to identify with them.

Could the pain be a relief - of seeing what you describe
I

t's when I have come in to association with an experience and i have aversion to it or want, but can't have something and many other versions.

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

I don't understand these, could you say a bit more please? The pain is a relief or a reaction to something seen? How does reaction work? May be that is the blip bit that I was talking about. Something makes the experience different, like a televised happening of something. I'm watching the tv instead of the actual experience. That sounds a bit mad.

But trust what you see - rather than trust in the thought that arises after you have seen.[\quote] nice, I'll give this a go. But again there is a separation preceding this that I have to practise initially.

write to me Thursday and Friday

unfortunately there will be no chance to be on a computer tomorrow, I will be working through my lunch to be able to leave early, jumping straight in a car after that and going to the retreat. I will type stuff though and and then paste it on when I get back on Sunday.

[quote I would like you to simply notice your emotions without any label.

Are these emotions felt by anyone?
Are they happening to anyone?

-As soon as there is an experience, i label it, as soon as i label it, i have embued it with a sense or story of I.

When I ask who is this happening to? There is a strong sense that I am attached to whoever it is happening to, because I want pleasant and not painful emotions, want to control because of that. I love what I love and don't what I don't and those are particular things to me and are different to others, my conditions too. All that, but no sense of a separate me. Just a long and complex built up story

I had visions of these kind of narrative thoughts being like the backdrop to the stage, where it all happens, and that dropping. Or it is like one of those wobbly mirrors that you get at fairgrounds, reflecting a distortion of reality back-atcha. So again, thoughts, stories of experience and sensation. Nothing more. But before, there was just the interpretation, the thoughts, i was just watching the television screen, just seeing the distorted mirror, and I still do. Dropping of something was a sense I had, for those moments, so that there was no interpretation of the experiences emerging from the vastness. I could sit for a long time in this state, but it was not sustainable

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

I hope that the space this weekend has been good for this process, I have such little space in the world though. How does the experience in meditation or on retreat get sustained in daily life

in meditation this morning, I started with the Metta, when reciting "may I be well" I then went into, well...who would be well? It felt like walls or something came down and vastness was experienced, not blue sky, but night sky, deep blue. In this thoughts arose etc, and there was sometimes a narrative, which was like me selfing. It narrated, say something about whatever was arising, but it was within this vastness, so there was perspective, take it or leave it...the experiences came and went, flowed. The selfing continued as well, sometimes and separate from the experience. Who is narrating? They are just thoughts as well. They come from this void, where thoughts come from. Does this narration stop once one has seen through? Or does the 'selfing' continue just with a different perspective, I wondered

Hi Sj Great to see you have been making progress. You have shared alot thank you. Before you went away you made a great observation

-As soon as there is an experience, i label it, as soon as i label it, i have embued it with a sense or story of I.

it's also great that you are seeing that "pain" is one of mind's labels and that the actual experience is neither good nor bad.

Reminding you that sensations are just sensations – whether pleasant, painful or neutral. I.e. it’s just a painful sensation, with thoughts identifying it as ‘me’ but it’s not any kind of self-entity. Same is true of anger,

Glad you were able to relax and trust what emerges as there is nothing to get and nobody to get it - you can just continue to relax and look.

you wrote on sunday

You had a great insight here - when you refer to your thoughts as a long and complex built up story

When I ask who is this happening to? There is a strong sense that I am attached to whoever it is happening to, because I want pleasant and not painful emotions, want to control because of that. I love what I love and don't what I don't and those are particular things to me and are different to others, my conditions too. All that, but no sense of a separate me. Just a long and complex built up story

Exactly - a long built up story - that can be let go of - when you see through the illusion of self.

You wrote this on retreat

I had visions of these kind of narrative thoughts being like the backdrop to the stage, where it all happens, and that dropping. Or it is like one of those wobbly mirrors that you get at fairgrounds, reflecting a distortion of reality back-atcha. So again, thoughts, stories of experience and sensation. Nothing more. But before, there was just the interpretation, the thoughts, i was just watching the television screen, just seeing the distorted mirror, and I still do. Dropping of something was a sense I had, for those moments, so that there was no interpretation of the experiences emerging from the vastness. I could sit for a long time in this state, but it was not sustainable

Trust what emerges – remember I asked you to do this – you have seen clearly --- what are you looking for? A big bang experience. Cliché or not – but --- it’s a good one. Before enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water and after enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water.
I’m not saying this is enlightenment what you see – but what I am saying isyou are beginning to see more clearly– and when we begin to see more clearly– there will still be gravitational pulls that will arise – like doubt, craving, ill will – what happens is they begin to loosen. It’s not like you begin to see clearly and you will never have a thought of doubt again, or a thought of anger, hatred, or never label experience again – yes you will but it becomes different. Things will not stick in the same way.

You asked me to explain

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

When we see clearly – there is sensation – and when sensation arises – if we identify with the self we will react. Rather than lablling – just seeing it as a sensation arising and ceasing.

You speak of attachment
What are you attached to? Please reflect on this. What are you attached to? What are you holding on to?

I hope that the space this weekend has been good for this process, I have such little space in the world though. How does the experience in meditation or on retreat get sustained in daily life

The whole of the spiritual life can be meditation - after all what is meditation - bringing mindful attention to everything we do - so continue being aware of your present moment - do not get caught up in thought that says there is no space. There is space in every moment;
This is a great reflection

in meditation this morning, I started with the Metta, when reciting "may I be well" I then went into, well...who would be well? It felt like walls or something came down and vastness was experienced, not blue sky, but night sky, deep blue. In this thoughts arose etc, and there was sometimes a narrative, which was like me selfing. It narrated, say something about whatever was arising, but it was within this vastness, so there was perspective, take it or leave it...the experiences came and went, flowed. The selfing continued as well, sometimes and separate from the experience. Who is narrating? They are just thoughts as well. They come from this void, where thoughts come from. Does this narration stop once one has seen through? Or does the 'selfing' continue just with a different perspective, I wondered

Here is an exercise for you to do – so that the gap between retreat and your regular life does not seem so wide.


The self as the experiencer:
:

“In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
or
“Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
or
“Is there a hearer that hears?”

The self as the Doer / Controller: (you had glimpses of this while driving)
Please ask your ‘self i is the Doe?. Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"


Finally for today u wrote Sunday Hi Vimalasara

Hope you have had a good weekend, i had a very restful time with good friends. I have posted my writing from Friday and Saturday from on retreat. I hope thats ok?

Today meditation was not so focused. The first sit was an attempt at mindfulness, I ducked out of second sit to lay on my bed and do nothing. I laid there and decided to review in my mind the what i had so far, I thought, well, I have that vastness, then dropped in to that, then I have the experiences, emotions, thoughts whatever, then I have the narrating thoughts..and what else... that's all! Oh dear, that's it. Then came this bodily panic, which was like, who is driving/controlling this thing then? A bit like going along in a car and then realising no one is driving, or in a ship and no one is steering. That kind of lack of control thing. I tried to stay with the experience of that without labelling, but 'heart racing' and 'shallow breath' was still labelling.

On Sunday u wrote

So the narrating thoughts, the selfing thoughts, may be they kind of hook on to the experience and alter that or something? And the process of seating the two means you can see the experience and selfing thoughts, and then the vastness means you can see the selfing thoughts as what they are rather than just being able to see the mine-made experience when it has been hooked in to. Do the selfing thoughts continue?

This is great letting go of control and seeing what flows. I refer to the selling question above


okay this is enough to be going with - answer one question at a time - beginning with the attachment one first. Thank you . Be well. With kindness

Vimalasara

I'm attached to things that give me stuff to invest my 'self' in, that helps build that complex story further.

so if you were not attached to this illusion of self - what would happen?

My self as do'er...deep rooted thoughts about self. I experience the sensation of a lot of energy with that thought. Is there such a thing as that? Thoughts that have been recurring for a long time, that the story is based around? Like a thought infrastructure that creates the illusion. Wow. I think I am a doer, I do, therefore I am, it confirms that I exists. Good trick!

The "i" thought hooks on to the sensation/emotion/experience and then makes it mine, so "I am in pain", secondary suffering arises

Knowing there is no driver, does not stop the car going along. Nothing happens, nothing different. Just the selfing thoughts don't attach to the experiences and are seen for what they are, just thoughts.

great to see things moving - I must admit your last para - had me thinking -- had to let go of that - as there is no thinking and just thoughts arising and ceasing- Was not sure if you believed in the 'good trick or not'.[\quote]

I meant that the story thought (I do, or I'm crap at something) is reconfirmed when the result is just that, (when i do do, or i fail at something) and the illusion of self is continued or something (because the fact that has happened has confirmed the story of I thought). I was seeing that playing out. Sorry that was not clear. Its difficult to put experience in to words like this.

are YOU the thinker of thoughts?

The deep blue vastness is where the thoughts arise from, and that is within my mind, to that extent I guess so, but thats the context rather that i am doing the thoughts. But it's not ME thinking them up or creating them. They come out of no where, magically appear and disappear.

can YOU choose and think a thought?

I really wanted to think that I could choose a thought. So when I have directed thought, I can think, ok, I need to think about this right now, and then along comes thought out process with linked thoughts or something. But then, the original thought of ok, I need to think such and such through, where did that come from? So I was scuppered on that one. The memory might come for me to do that, but I don't choose the memories that come in to my mind, or ideas.

The thought arrives, out of nowhere, the mind experiences that thought, the awareness is like in receipt of that rather than active in its creation it feels like.

So what identifies? are you identifying or is identification simply happening?

The thoughts identify, they hook or stick to the experience/sensation/emotion, I'm not sure if they distort the same experience or if a distorted new experience is born from it, but that's the experience. This simply happens, although not so much with the space around it.

Can you see that this "one who identifies or not" is not AT ALL real? [\quote]

In my direct experience, I can see that there is no self creating the narrating thoughts of I. These narrating or selfing thoughts just come, just as all the other thoughts. There is not an I that either creates the thoughts or that links the narrating thoughts to the experience etc.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

I meant that the story thought (I do, or I'm crap at something) is reconfirmed when the result is just that, (when i do do, or i fail at something) and the illusion of self is continued or something (because the fact that has happened has confirmed the story of I thought). I was seeing that playing out. Sorry that was not clear. Its difficult to put experience in to words like this.

But it's not ME thinking them up or creating them. They come out of no where, magically appear and disappear.

scuppered

The thought arrives, out of nowhere, the mind experiences that thought, the awareness is like in receipt of that rather than active in its creation it feels like.

The thoughts identify, they hook or stick to the experience/sensation/emotion, I'm not sure if they distort the same experience or if a distorted new experience is born from it, but that's the experience. This simply happens, although not so much with the space around it.

In my direct experience, I can see that there is no self creating the narrating thoughts of I. These narrating or selfing thoughts just come, just as all the other thoughts. There is not an I that either creates the thoughts or that links the narrating thoughts to the experience etc.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

I needed the walls to come down for the vastness to be experienced, I needed that to happen I think to be able to separate/distinguish the narrating thoughts from the experience. I need you to give me questions to be able to go digging in the first place. I needed to take the time to review my experience in order to experience there being no driver or controller, and that it all still happens. I don't know if the selfing thoughts can stop? But i have seen this happening, but they havent stopped. If they stopped, there would be just the vastness (awareness) and the experience, but still thoughts. What else is there other than seeing? At the moment I am experiencing as well as seeing, I experience the vastness and like a looser way of being. May be I'll be with this one a bit more.

. What scuppered you? .

What if there was no story?
What would it feel like not to have a story when (what you label as fail or something) ?
What would be happening if there was no story?

it is extremely challenging to find the original thought.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

Have the walls come down for you to see clearly there is no separate self?

Is there something more than seeing? More seeing? Is there more to see? From my experience, there is nothing else. I guess if this is it, there is working on less identification next. Or may be that just happens naturally having seen all this. I think it is happening less. Less sticky selfing, less identification, not looking through the distorted mirror. Just doing what needs to be done next, less preference.

'Sorry, I don't know if I know the answer, or completely understand the question.