Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowate)

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

It’s just that most of the time I am not really paying attention to experiences – I am lost in thoughts, distracted, not present.
There are so many thoughts about everything that comes through my senses, noting and judging (like, dislike etc): I get caught in that experience and believe that to be more real than the initial experience. I believe my thoughts to be important and true.

This is a story - I'm not saying it's not true, but it is not what is going on Right Now. The gate is found through investigation of current direct experience ... there is no need to worry about "most of the time". Notice that stories about "most of the time" are thoughts happening right now.

So right now, is there a veil?

As a thought passes by, awareness may narrow to just the content of the thought, but on returning to broader awareness, is experience not fully present in awareness?

In this broad awareness of body and the senses, is there any "I" to be found?

I had a moment of talking with my husband in the kitchen and saw that everything he said was made into an image in my mind. In fact it was kinda ridiculous, like a cartoon making machine. It just happened, I couldn’t stop it from happening.

:-) nice observation!

So not only is "I" not making this happen, but "I" cannot stop it happening!

This is what I mean by "thoughts arising in dependence upon conditions" as opposed to "I am thinking" .... they just happen! There is no "I" doing them! Is this what you find in experience?

I need to do a lot more of that kind of noticing don't I?

It is good to notice experience 'just happening', but I wouldn't say you have to make a deliberate practice of it, since it is not helpful to force an interpretation onto experience. Once you've noticed something that is true, you're likely to notice it more, so just remain open to this truth.

Going back to the quote above:

It just happened, I couldn’t stop it from happening.

So sitting here right now, is the same true of thoughts currently arising?

If seeing, hearing, feeling and thinking all 'just happen', what is "I"? Does something called "I" really exist? If so, where?

But it still brings up fear too.

That is quite normal once the truth starts to become clearer ... the fear is unfounded, of course, there is really nothing to fear, yet fear arises as a protection mechanism.... We can come back to this another time, for now, just notice any fear that arises, and ask - what is being protected? Protected from what?

There is a veil of thoughts and fear. Thoughts about me, and all this life business is happening to me and my actions and words and thoughts are so important because they are about me. Defining me all the time in relation to whatever arises; Self-ing.
This is keeping me separate from people and the world, which is very painful.
It is keeping me small, very small, much smaller than I really am. Keeping me tightly locked in. Squeezed in a much too small container.

Yes, it is time to see through this illusion of self and separation :-)

As I wrote at the start of this post - don't worry about what is happening "the rest of the time", we'll keep gently investigating together what is the true nature of experience right now, and see where it leads,

best wishes,

Perry

[stephanie padma]

Dear Perry,

Struggling with the content of thoughts and coming back to broad bare awareness.

Trying to stay with the simple tasks of the morning: just showering, just getting dressed, and just washing up. But a constant commentating is rather doing my head in – endless content – some of it okay, like “Is there an ‘I’ doing the washing up? I don’t know, what will I tell Perry about the washing up?” Most of it unrelated to the present. Feeling inadequate about not doing this process right.

Qigong practice immensely useful: just the body moving, the hands hovering above the body and some warmth there, a sort of intensity in the hands like they are bigger, sounds of the seagulls, wind on my face, many other sounds, cars, children, sight of the green and cats running by. Weight of my body.
Spaciousness and simplicity, no particular ‘me’, just the Qi Gong doing itself, remembering how to do itself. Opening of the heart. Then the feeling that I ‘forgot myself’, grip in the tummy and many thoughts full of content regarding these questions and this email!

Earlier sitting meditation, and now sitting here at my desk. Sitting, buttocks on the cushion, seeing light, hearing sounds, feeling various heat sensations, thinking various thoughts related to the sensations, giving rise to new sensations and therefore new thoughts about them.
In all honesty I can’t say that I have found an ‘I’, ‘me’ that does it, but still not convinced that there isn’t one! I just haven’t found it yet!! I look at the back of my head and neck, where I sense it might be hiding, but all I can feel is heat, tension and spasms as I rest awareness there. It’s happening now; I can feel my whole spine being hot and my neck and shoulder going into small spasms. Fear arises in my tummy.

Earlier in the shower and on the cushion I asked: “what is being protected? Protected from what?”
Initially some stories about protecting from others, but then a deeper, truer sense of vulnerability arose. I continued investigating ’from what am I hiding’ and I saw (?), sensed that I am hiding something from myself.. This gave rise to a sort of shame (Hirih), heat, embarrassment and sadness.

Rather rattled today.

Much love,
Padma
Xx

[stephanie padma]

A realisation late last night. I create so many different version of myself. People don’t know this, they think there is one stephanie padma, but there are many depending on the situation and all those versions nobody knows about. It’s all a big lie. Even I don’t know which is my ‘true self’ anymore. In fact, that’s a silly thought, there isn’t a true self, how could there be. Self is just a construction in my mind, an idea, in the past and the future, a narrative.

with thanks,
Stephanie Padma

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
Just had another little revelation. That most of the brain doesn’t know the difference between imagination and reality. This is a fact of neuroscience that I teach my clients all the time and the meaning of it just dropped deeper in my being.
But you are going to tell me that this is just a story!

I have been noticing my body getting on with life without ‘me doing it’. Especially noticing my arms moving about doing stuff.
I can still see that i can’t stop my thoughts jumping about, labelling, comparing etc...

but on returning to broader awareness, is experience not fully present in awareness?
In this broad awareness of body and the senses, is there any "I" to be found?

I find it hard to return to broad awareness whilst ‘thinking about doing it’ I am thinking about this process and trying to notice something. And I can’t notice anything apart from typing, wet hair, light, house sounds (which create mind images), presence, discomfort in the tummy, effort, doubting my abilities to get on with this process.
Stepping back in my being to try to ‘see broadly’, noticing a lot of energy in my spine and my back. Little spams in neck and shoulders.

I can’t find a ‘I’. There is a broad presence thought, quite still and wide.

Padma
xxx

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

I'll go back over all your recent posts one by one:

Struggling with the content of thoughts and coming back to broad bare awareness.

If there is struggling, does this mean that there is an attempt to maintain a STATE (a particular mental state)?

For what we are doing in this investigation, struggle should not be necessary ... the aim is not to get into or maintain any particular mental state but to notice the nature of whatever is going on right now. There is no need to divide experience into "experience which should be happening" and "experience which should not be happening"!

If you find 'struggling' returns, it is also worth looking at what is going on with 'struggling' itself .... while a thought is happening, awareness narrows onto the content of the thought .... is struggling happening at this point? Then the thought passes and/or awareness broadens out ... is struggling happening at this point? Moment-by-moment, what IS struggling? Can you describe the process?

constant commentating is rather doing my head in – endless content – some of it okay, like “Is there an ‘I’ doing the washing up? I don’t know, what will I tell Perry about the washing up?” Most of it unrelated to the present. Feeling inadequate about not doing this process right.

there really isn't a problem here, the process is fine :-)

you're describing the tick-tock of thought and 'counter thought' ... Are "you" controlling these thoughts? Presumably not, otherwise you'd just "turn them off"!

.... so can you just allow each thought to be there when it arises, and allow it to be gone when it has passed? If thoughts arise and pass according to their own rules, do 'you' actually have any choice but to allow them to arise and pass??

There is no need to chase a thought that has just passed, but if chasing happens, there is no need to chase that.

When a thought has passed, do you notice awareness broadens of its own accord, to include sense experience, the body, the heart?

Then another thought arises and awareness narrows again.... yes?

Just notice these processes - no need to try to change anything, just notice and let me know how you get on!

Earlier sitting meditation, and now sitting here at my desk. Sitting, buttocks on the cushion, seeing light, hearing sounds, feeling various heat sensations, thinking various thoughts related to the sensations, giving rise to new sensations and therefore new thoughts about them.
In all honesty I can’t say that I have found an ‘I’, ‘me’ that does it, but still not convinced that there isn’t one! I just haven’t found it yet!! I look at the back of my head and neck, where I sense it might be hiding, but all I can feel is heat, tension and spasms as I rest awareness there. It’s happening now; I can feel my whole spine being hot and my neck and shoulder going into small spasms. Fear arises in my tummy.

Very good!

In all honesty I can’t say that I have found an ‘I’, ‘me’ that does it, but still not convinced that there isn’t one! I just haven’t found it yet!!

Be completely honest about whether you are convinced or not .... and look some more!

Earlier in the shower and on the cushion I asked: “what is being protected? Protected from what?”
Initially some stories about protecting from others, but then a deeper, truer sense of vulnerability arose. I continued investigating ’from what am I hiding’ and I saw (?), sensed that I am hiding something from myself.. This gave rise to a sort of shame (Hirih), heat, embarrassment and sadness.

This sounds promising.....

You're doing great!

x
Perry

[perrym]

Hello again!

Just had another little revelation. That most of the brain doesn’t know the difference between imagination and reality. This is a fact of neuroscience that I teach my clients all the time and the meaning of it just dropped deeper in my being.

Interesting, that figures!

So in this investigation you could say we're engaging "the bit of the brain that DOES know the difference" in the question of whether "I" is part of imagination or reality ...

But you are going to tell me that this is just a story!

Oh dear, am I that predictable ;-)

Well, the neuroscience can help frame an understanding around what we're doing, but it can't do the seeing for you .... so, if you like, here goes ... "This is Just a Story!" ... there! :-D

I have been noticing my body getting on with life without ‘me doing it’. Especially noticing my arms moving about doing stuff.
I can still see that i can’t stop my thoughts jumping about, labelling, comparing etc...

Yes, great observation!

but on returning to broader awareness, is experience not fully present in awareness?
In this broad awareness of body and the senses, is there any "I" to be found?

I find it hard to return to broad awareness whilst ‘thinking about doing it’

OK, yes, that is not surprising ...

So to echo an earlier theme, I'm not saying "Return to Broader Awareness!" ... this is not about deliberately getting into or maintaining particular mental states ... Rather, I'm pointing out something that might be apparent in direct experience as it unfolds spontaneously.

If it is not immediately apparent, don't worry - don't try to force yourself to see what I'm pointing to, but you may find you notice spontaneously at some point .... initially, just this: awareness naturally cycles through narrower and broader states.

best wishes,

Perry

[perrym]

whoops, replies out of order...

It’s all a big lie. Even I don’t know which is my ‘true self’ anymore. In fact, that’s a silly thought, there isn’t a true self, how could there be. Self is just a construction in my mind, an idea, in the past and the future, a narrative.

yes, indeed! Lovely!

how does it feel to put down the notion of a 'true self'?

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Dear Perry,

Many thanks for your excellent questions today. I am very grateful for your time and careful attention.

Regarding the struggling:

does this mean that there is an attempt to maintain a STATE

mmh, yes it seems I have been wanting a particular experience, an attempt to ‘just be present’ and not interested or carried away by the content of the thought. I’ve been frustrated with my elf for being distratcted away fron what is ‘really’ there by the content of thoughts. I am attempting to maintain a state of ‘awake-ness’ whereby I am present to all experiences, clear, with a wide awareness and equanimity. Oh dear...I hadn’t been aware of that process!

There is no need to divide experience into "experience which should be happening" and "experience which should not be happening"!

That’s exactly what I’ve been doing! I am okay with whatever physical or emotional experience arises, but I am judging my mental experiences: “shouldn’t be happening” thoughts have been arising in regards to my thoughts!

Moment-by-moment, what IS struggling? Can you describe the process?

When content-heavy thoughts arise, awareness narrows. Struggling happens when I notice the narrowing. Judging, not good. not wanting. I don’t want that, I want awareness to remain wide. I start fighting it: forcing myself back to the here and now. My head tenses up a lot and I get headachy. It’s quite a violent process, it leaves me rattled and exhausted.
This is really helpful to notice.

.... so can you just allow each thought to be there when it arises, and allow it to be gone when it has passed? If thoughts arise and pass according to their own rules, do 'you' actually have any choice but to allow them to arise and pass??

I have been trying to control the thoughts, but it doesn’t seem possible! I need to let them be more and just notice them! and just notice the wanting to change them too.

If it is not immediately apparent, don't worry - don't try to force yourself to see what I'm pointing to, but you may find you notice spontaneously at some point .... initially, just this: awareness naturally cycles through narrower and broader states.

Thank you, that’s very helpful. I get a sense of that. I will carry on noticing these processes today without trying to change them... (eeek!) and will let you know how I get on.

MOre later,

With gratitude
Padma xx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Again,

In all honesty I can’t say that I have found an ‘I’, ‘me’ that does it, but still not convinced that there isn’t one! I just haven’t found it yet

, !!

Be completely honest about whether you are convinced or not .... and look some more!

Big ‘eeek’. Much resistance comes up here, in the form of procrastination. I have notice that pretty much each time I get a thread from you, or right now when the question is ...about looking for self. I know it is resistance because it feels like running away: thoughts and compelling activities that take me away from looking at that question! “Must go have some lunch NOW, then a run, then meditate etc...” It’s funny, I don’t mind too much.
It seems I am less and less convinced. I can see that there is no Padma or Stephanie outside of habit and fantasies (imagination, stories). I don’t really know who I am anymore. Certain fears and defensiveness have dropped away a lot in the last couple of weeks, which makes me a rather different person. But....

how does it feel to put down the notion of a 'true self'?

I haven’t completely put it down yet, this morning I didn’t feel ready at all to drop it!! It feels very very sad to put that down. I have been looking for my true self my whole life, since I was conscious enough to do it (I gave her names too - I realise it has been a rather strong romantic notion). I am still hoping there is a true self!!! Maybe true self is no self, or Love.
Looking more deeply in my heart, I can’t find true self. I find sadness about an inkling that it doesn’t exist. There is still love, that is definitively there.

I have noticed that thoughts also try to appropriate awareness. When awareness turns towards something, a thought says ‘I am aware of that’.
‘I’ is a network of thoughts running along habitual lines. Sometimes complicated and tight networks, sometimes loose and very ephemeral.

Over and out,
Padma
xx

[stephanie padma]

Dear Perry,
Going down the rabbit hole. It seems I don’t care so much about it not being a fixed separate self now that we touch on the bigger question of ‘true self’! :)

‘Finding one’s true self’ isn’t it what life is all about? The big romantic internal adventure.

Sitting here with the question :

Be completely honest about whether you are convinced or not .... and look some more!

I look, my whole body goes very fizzy and spasms start at the back of my neck, clenching in the guts. If there is no separate self I don’t need to hold on, I don’t need to be sad about losing anything. Some letting go in the guts, still discomfort. Heart softens. Freedom is possible, maybe? Smile.
A deeper relaxing and a sense of falling.

Am I convinced? If I was really convinced I wouldn’t feel I am still a separate self, looking through those eyes.
I am convinced that I want to be convinced! That I don’t want to be working so hard anymore at making myself small. I want to give that up. I don’t think I need to ‘let go’ but rather let something happen.

Much love
Padma
x

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

I know it is resistance because it feels like running away: thoughts and compelling activities that take me away from looking at that question! “Must go have some lunch NOW, then a run, then meditate etc...”

:-)

the tricks that 'the mind' plays! I'm glad you're not totally taken in by them.

can you see what is underneath the avoidance?

It seems I am less and less convinced. I can see that there is no Padma or Stephanie outside of habit and fantasies (imagination, stories). I don’t really know who I am anymore. Certain fears and defensiveness have dropped away a lot in the last couple of weeks, which makes me a rather different person.

hey, great!

how does it feel to put down the notion of a 'true self'?

I haven’t completely put it down yet, this morning I didn’t feel ready at all to drop it!! It feels very very sad to put that down. I have been looking for my true self my whole life, since I was conscious enough to do it (I gave her names too - I realise it has been a rather strong romantic notion). I am still hoping there is a true self!!! Maybe true self is no self, or Love.
Looking more deeply in my heart, I can’t find true self. I find sadness about an inkling that it doesn’t exist. There is still love, that is definitively there.

good exploration!

love remains when the illusion of self is seen through - in fact 'self' introduces the separation that limits love

... so I wonder what loss the sadness is mourning?

What would be lost if there is no 'true self' to find?

What would be gained?

I have noticed that thoughts also try to appropriate awareness. When awareness turns towards something, a thought says ‘I am aware of that’.
‘I’ is a network of thoughts running along habitual lines. Sometimes complicated and tight networks, sometimes loose and very ephemeral.

yes, yes, very good!

these appropriating thoughts are a key part of the illusion of 'I' - they are recreating the story that keeps the illusion alive. Noticing this is excellent.

do you notice this kind of appropriation happening in other ways?

how about decisions? do 'you' really make decisions, or do they just happen, appropriated by thought after the event?

‘Finding one’s true self’ isn’t it what life is all about? The big romantic internal adventure.

Oh, OK, if you say so ;-)

... or how about .... "finding the truth about self"?

Am I convinced? If I was really convinced I wouldn’t feel I am still a separate self, looking through those eyes.

ah yes, the self behind the experience, the eyes looking out through the eyes, the tiny little human shaped self that lives inside us, pulls the levers that operate our limbs, and has all our experience

:-)

how does this change if you revisit one of the early exercises, simply asking:

is seeing just happening, or am 'I' doing the seeing?
is hearing just happening, or am 'I' doing the hearing?
tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen, or am 'I' making them happen?

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
Sorry about the lack of post yesterday. Life took over.

can you see what is underneath the avoidance?

The avoidance can feel like it is trying to hide something. Like hiding a bad deed from an authority figure, afraid of getting found out.
Also, the intellectual part of my experience is afraid that it won’t have a job at the end of this process, though my sense is that it could go on to more relaxing tasks, like reading and being better at my job.
Today there is pride in all that: I don’t want to find out that I am/ have been wrong about life and the nature of who I am. I don’t want to find out that I have been holding to the wrong end of the stick all these years. ‘I’ don’t want this humiliating process. ‘I’ am important and have an important job of holding this whole thing together, without ‘me’ we wouldn’t know what the heck we are doing. (sorry rambling on here a bit, that seem to just happen by itself!).

in fact 'self' introduces the separation that limits love

Yes, yes I can totally see that.

... so I wonder what loss the sadness is mourning?

I guess it is a bit like giving up smoking, a habit of identification, a story, the end of a good book, the end of a very long and very good day dream. The comfort of what is known, even though that may not be what is wanted.

What would be lost if there is no 'true self' to find?

The seeking would be lost. The striving, hoping, doubting, wondering, despairing, dreaming of what might be. The Path?? what will I do with 'myself' if I'm not doing all the above?
What would be the point of all the stuff I do?

What would be gained?

The heart’s release from this cramp tiny space it is in.
The heart’s freedom, and joy and flow.

... or how about .... "finding the truth about self"?

‘finding Truth’ is good! Truth and Love are ‘it’ (whatever ‘it’ is).

these appropriating thoughts are a key part of the illusion of 'I' - they are recreating the story that keeps the illusion alive. Noticing this is excellent.

I only really saw it properly just the once when it came to awareness itself

do you notice this kind of appropriation happening in other ways?

Feelings, all the time. ‘my’ anger, ‘my’ appreciation. Anger, gratitude etc arise out of a complex of objective, psychological, habitual conditions, external and internal.
Right now, fear again, and wanting to write that with a big F. tight in stomach and in throat, although that could be hunger. that thought just gave rise to a bit of a bubbly feeling and a smile.
MY Fear is hoding on tightly to itself - maybe just out of habit - 'no no no no, not letting go of that yet' - 'of what?' - 'shut up - look away - leave me alone'

how about decisions? do 'you' really make decisions, or do they just happen, appropriated by thought after the event?

Mmmmh....

Will get back to this and the earlier exercises tomorrow.


Many thanks, also thanks for the ‘Men in Black’ joke, though I can’t remember what Will Smith said to the tiny little guy pulling the levers inside the big guys head.

Much love
Padma

[stephanie padma]

Hi Again Perry,

Forgot to say about this happening I observed yesterday, which may be related to what you said 2 days ago:

If it is not immediately apparent, don't worry - don't try to force yourself to see what I'm pointing to, but you may find you notice spontaneously at some point .... initially, just this: awareness naturally cycles through narrower and broader states.

I ‘decided’ I should go with a ‘should’ rather than what I wanted in regards to a certain arrangement.
Over a couple of days irritation arose in various situations more and more, by Monday morning I was a wreck of irritation and defensiveness: going back to those old patterns and stories: selfing like mad and my whole awareness was narrowed down to tunnel vision.
Eventually I realise this was silly or something. I had to swallow my pride in some way and admit I made the wrong commitment and had to start again.
So, I sorted things out and my heart came back in, awareness widened and peace arose, happiness too.
The irritation thought continued their tantrum for a while, but they weren’t so sticky, I was just observing them rather than taken by them.

xx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

Decisions.
The little things just kindda happen – e.g. switching the lights off, ‘nobody’ is deciding to do that. Even though there may be thoughts about it afterwards.
For the more complicated things, like “Will I have enough time to go for a run today?”. There’s a weighting of options, a checking with the Heart about what’s important, double checking with the mind (which is not particularly useful because ‘should‘ starts to get involved), then an expression of that arises in action.

Examining: “there is no separate self at all” (Iliona)
There are only processes, flowing of old stories, new stories, responses, reactions, processings, activities, information, all interacting with one another.

Feeling awful today:
My big psychological stuff is coming up, my usual ‘big issue’:
I am not good enough for this
Who am I to think I am going to finish this process of liberation. I am not allowed to be free, I am not allowed to be happy: these are selfish ideas that will make other people (aka mother) suffer and be unhappy.
Deep sadness and consternation.
The brick wall I have been expecting.
Trying to stay with all that with an open heart.

Feeling like I am not making progress, still not ‘seeing it’ – or is that just a thought arising out of certain conditions. Actually, even though it hurts like hell, I’m not sure I am believing it fully.

Bahhh, sorry for the downer.

Padma

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

Sorry about the lack of post yesterday. Life took over.

ehem, I could say the same thing .... Life is King!

I'll reply post-by-post, as if I'd been keeping pace!

I don’t want to find out that I am/ have been wrong about life and the nature of who I am. I don’t want to find out that I have been holding to the wrong end of the stick all these years. ‘I’ don’t want this humiliating process. ‘I’ am important and have an important job of holding this whole thing together, without ‘me’ we wouldn’t know what the heck we are doing.

Ah, yes!

Taking credit for keeping the whole show on the road ...

Looking to direct experience, can you find an entity there to take credit, or are these just thoughts?

There are, of course, all sorts of thought patterns / habits that have gone into maintaining the 'story of Stephanie', in fact, the 'story of Stephanie' has been a great success - growing up without such a story is probably impossible ... so it is natural that thoughts arise to 'protect' the story. Can you pay your respects to these patterns, love them - and also see them for what they are?

The comfort of what is known, even though that may not be what is wanted.

Yes, anything that is intimately familiar is worth looking at afresh - what are the particular special feelings that make up "Stephanieness"? The special tone of the inner voice? Can you notice the qualities in direct experience that make up what is most intimately and familiarly 'me-ness'? Are these really special, are they actually a 'self', or are they just familiar sensations?

What would be lost if there is no 'true self' to find?

The seeking would be lost. The striving, hoping, doubting, wondering, despairing, dreaming of what might be. The Path?? what will I do with 'myself' if I'm not doing all the above?
What would be the point of all the stuff I do?

If it is any consolation - people often report a sense that it is actually just the start of the path 'proper' ..... a beginning not an end!

Feelings, all the time. ‘my’ anger, ‘my’ appreciation. Anger, gratitude etc arise out of a complex of objective, psychological, habitual conditions, external and internal.

OK: so next time you have the space, and notice this going on, can you explore what is going on when 'MY' is added in to the raw immediate experience?

Even considering something material (rather than an inner emotional state), say the screen in front of you, what changes between considering 'the screen' and 'my screen'? How is this accomplished? What is appropriation?

Remember, we are not trying to prevent appropriation, but to see clearly, in direct experience, what is going on when 'me and mine' are created out of pure experience.

.... and onto your next post!

very best wishes,

Perry