Seeking Guidance

[Behzad]

I feel you give clear answers on some of the questions but on the other hand I feel like something is not right. As if the answers comes out of knowledge, out of beliefs, things you have picked up along the way, things you have read or heard and so on.

Every question I ask needs to be looked at and answered from what is being seen. Youre disposition should be "I dont know the answer to this questions, but i will look and find out how things are". If you are intrested in the truth you have to leave youre knowledege and expectations behind. You cant come into this with the dispostion of I know. Then you will see things as you think/belive it is but if youre are intreseted in knowing how things actually are then you have to stop beliving that you already know the answers and take a serious damn LOOK at reality.

Its like you have put something on youre eyes wich covers youre eyes and makes it impossible for you to see, you cant see how things acyually are, because you are beliving in how things are, you see what you belive. You dont even truly look at the questions that is being asked instead you answer from what you belive/think is right. Can you see that those beliefs is what is covering youre eyes. Are you ready to let those pass so you can become innocent and clear like a child? And truly see how things are instead of what you belive/think it is?

Its like you are beliving that there is a wolf in the woods. And I ask you have you looked to see if thats right. And you keep on saying that there is a wolf in the woods, people have been talking about it for decades and I have heard all the other people in town talking about it, some people have even said that they have seen it and so on. What do you have to do to know if there is a wolf in the woods? Take a look, right? To keep beliving that there is a wolf in the woods or maybe that there is not any wolf in the woods want change a damn thing. Then you will keep on sitting on youre old beliefs that you have picked up from others and being sad about nothing is changing.

This is about SEEING/LOOKING at reality to see how things are.

And there is no right answer to give. You say what you see and this requires 110% honesty. If you feel like youre answer sounds strange then you have to be honest and write that so I know where you are at. If you only give answers from what you belive/think then nothing is really changing. You still sit on youre bunch of knowledge, beliefs and concepts. You are still holding on to what you belive. If you give just answers from what you belive, what you have read, learnt, heard and what you think is right and so on then you will just sit on the hamster wheel and go round and round. Nothing will truly be seen. You just hold on to youre beliefs harder and tighter and wounder why you cant make it.

While I can see a thoughts arise spontaneously without any control from me. It's not a continuous thing. I still feel like there's someone looking at all this stuff. It's like believing something that you know isn't true.

You say that you still belive that there is someone looking at all this stuff that is because you have not truly LOOKED. Can you see the difference between looking and just answering from what you belive?

Looking is innocent, beliving is just going to the mind and giving the answer that you belive is right. There is no looking involved there. Just throwing out answers.

Ken my dear, you need to look at these questions that is being asked. I am not here to teach you. I have nothing to teach. I am just pointing you to look at things as they actually are so you can see what is true and whats not true. Whats real and whats unreal.

So help me out man, have you really been looking at all the questions or have you been sitting on youre I KNOW CHAIR and just giving me answers that you belive/think is right?

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

So help me out man, have you really been looking at all the questions or have you been sitting on youre I KNOW CHAIR and just giving me answers that you belive/think is right?

I'm definitely looking but describing what I see in words is not so easy and no doubt the way I describe what I see is influenced by concepts from my past, from Buddhism and so on.

I don't think that I know. I really don't know. What I've said is what I've seen so far. I'm looking but I don't think I've reached the tipping point yet.

I see perceptions, thoughts, feelings and there is awareness. When I hear a sound, it's one thing - awareness of sound. There's no I there. When I look at a thought or emotion, the same thing. What I actually hear or feel is indescribable. Words don't even approach the reality.

I'm going to take some time to look at your questions again and get back to you.

Thanks so much
Ken

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

I've continued to look. There is nothing I can find beyond the stream of perceptions, thoughts and feelings. There is no one controlling the stream. But the continuing stream of thoughts commenting on the process gives the impression of an "I" who is in control. The thoughts lead to emotions but there is no "I" who has these emotions.

The story continues with no controller. I watched my wife walking in front of me today and I saw that I was no more in control of my walking than I was in control of hers. But the sensations that go along with my walking are labelled as mine by the thought stream. In fact, the sensations are no more mine than my perception of my wife.

There is no one who can see this. No one to be set free because the "I" is a fiction. Yet the stream of thoughts continues and labels actions/thoughts as "mine" even though no one is in control, no one making decisions.

I don't exist as a separate self. The self is just a label given by the thought stream to a group of physical sensations and thoughts/feelings. It labels one group as "me" and all other perceptions as "not me". Actually all sensations are what they are.

When I look at decisions, there are none. A decision is a label that thought gives after something happens. The happening just happens. There is no "I" giving rise to it.

The perceptions and awareness of them arise together as one thing. I can't separate the two. There are always some perceptions occurring along with the awareness of them. In meditation the perception might be very indeterminate - a kind of feeling/sensation of well-being. In sleep it's a similar feeling of well-being along with other sporadic sensations like the one labelled as the need to empty bladder or sensations of turning over.

There is no I to be more or less aware. There is no one controlling awareness or sensations/thoughts/emotions. They arise together.

Thoughts don't belong to me. I have no control over them. There is no I to control them. Thoughts create the story of an I.

Other people and myself are just a story produced by the thought stream. There are no people in direct experience. A person is a label relating to a group of sensations.

While I can see a thoughts arise spontaneously without any control from me. It's not a continuous thing. I still feel like there's someone looking at all this stuff. It's like believing something that you know isn't true.

The above quote of what I wrote is not my direct observation but writing down the thought stream. The thought stream still leads to feelings even though I can see when I look at them that there is no self in them.

The story of Ken is self-perpetuating because there was no one in control of it in the first place. Any kind of thought or emotion can still occur since there's no one in control - including thoughts like "This is crazy - how can I look for liberation when I don't exist?" And that's not a problem.
Regards
Ken

[Behzad]

Very good Ken, good work.

Do you have any doubts about this self stuff, is anything unclear?

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad
Life is continuing to happen. Not sure as yet what the ramifications are of seeing self doesn't exist. It seems quite subtle - more relaxation associated with what is happening.

Do you have any doubts about this self stuff, is anything unclear?

There aren't any doubts about the self not existing but there are other questions arising in the thought stream such as:
how do things just happen, how does this stream happen?
a suspicion that there's something more to see than just not self.

Since there's no one in control, we'll look to see what evolves!

Regards
Ken

[Behzad]

Life is continuing to happen. Not sure as yet what the ramifications are of seeing self doesn't exist. It seems quite subtle - more relaxation associated with what is happening.

Relaxsation is one of the ramifications of seeing this. Now this is a new territory for you to explore. When the non existent of the self is seen then old conditioning, old beliefs and so on keep on arising. Life simply keeps on happening as it has always have done whitout you in the picture. But now everything is welcomed, if resistance happen even that is welcomed. So there is a subtle okejness, you simply travel lighter. And lot of our emotional enstability comes from beliving that there is an I here. When this is seen to be a mirage then all that noise that were coming out from the I starts to subside and life becomes very ordniary and there is a subtle sense of completness here all the time. The search for something more really dries out and when the search is no more happening then there is enjoyement of whatever that is here.

There aren't any doubts about the self not existing but there are other questions arising in the thought stream such as:
how do things just happen, how does this stream happen?
a suspicion that there's something more to see than just not self.

Since there's no one in control, we'll look to see what evolves!

You can explore all this stuff if that is what happens as long as you are clear with that there is no explorer in all of this that is happening. Getting the answer to all this questions want satisfy the mind/the I. The mind is like a cycle, it loves to spin, to think, to have something to bite on, to question things, to be active and so on. If you belive that there is an I there in the stream somewhere then the sense of lack, of not having enough, of there being something missing, the sense of seperation will be present and fuel the seeking. The belief in the I and sense of lack comes toghether. If you belive in one of them then the other comes with it. Then you are back in the seeking track.

When all this thoughts, beliefs that happen in the thought stream is seen as life happening, they simply dont belong to you because there is no you then all this action that goes on in the thought stream dont get intresting anymore and there is no more belief in them and you can naturally rest and be what you are. That is completness. What more do you expect to find then, life is all there is and there is no you, isnt that miracle enough?

What more do you expect to see than no self?

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

When all this thoughts, beliefs that happen in the thought stream is seen as life happening, they simply dont belong to you because there is no you then all this action that goes on in the thought stream dont get intresting anymore and there is no more belief in them and you can naturally rest and be what you are. That is completness. What more do you expect to find then, life is all there is and there is no you, isnt that miracle enough?

"You can naturally rest and be what you are" - that would be what I'm looking for. So to stay more with the Presence and to let go of the pointless internal dialogue which is trying to claim actions as "mine". As I continue with an awareness that the dialogue is not me - hopefully it gets less and relaxation increases. I see that the self doesn't exist but the dialogue is still trying to claim everything as "mine". Will that diminish with time?

What more do you expect to see than no self?

I think the more would be to be more in direct experience and less in internal dialogue. Sometimes, the internal dialogue matches what is true and at other times it's claiming to be the self. It would be good to let the latter go completely.

[Behzad]

"You can naturally rest and be what you are" - that would be what I'm looking for. So to stay more with the Presence and to let go of the pointless internal dialogue which is trying to claim actions as "mine".

That is what you are my frieand. There cant be a moment, a second when you are not naturally resting as that. Everything comes and goes in it. When there is a lot of thoughts in the head, when there is claiming happening and when there is an inner dialogue going on then all that is life happening. To stay with the presence is not a better experience then being lost in thoughts, in claiming and so on. All that is life happening to no one. There is no one here to prefer staying with presence or wanting to have less thoughts.

Can you look and see when the thought arise that says that I want to stay with the presence. Is that refering to an entity that can do that or is it just another thought that comes and goes?

This is unconditional accepteance of whatever shows up here. You are that wich welcomes it all. That is not an activity you have to do to be that. That is something you already are. The doer is seen as something unreal. And when that is seen then there is no one left to do anything anymore. But all the thoughts of being a doer still arises but there is a knowing now that those are not true. They are welcomed to come but not belived in anymore. Is like you are listening to a frieand and you know his lying and you let him lie if that is what he wants but you dont care about it because you know whats true and whats not.

So, take a look if there is anyone to stay with the presence?
There is a presence here, but is there something behind it that can stay with it or loose that presence?

Dont just answer this questions. Take a real look and tell me what you see. The answer should come from what you see no what you think.

As I continue with an awareness that the dialogue is not me - hopefully it gets less and relaxation increases. I see that the self doesn't exist but the dialogue is still trying to claim everything as "mine". Will that diminish with time?

Who is continuing? Who wants less of the claiming?

Relaxsation doesnt increase by there being less thoughts, less claiming and so on. Relaxsation increases with seeing that there is no here to care about all this you are describing. Wether all this happens or not is just important if you belive that there is a you that all this happen to. If you have seen that there is no you/I here then who is it that wants to stay with the presence, who is it that wants to end the inner dialogue?

Is it any problem if the inner dialogue continues and claims to be the doer as long as you know that there is no doer, no you to do anything?

Keep seeing the fact that there is no you here Ken, let that seeing hit home, let that knowing hit home and be stable. See that all this you are saying is happening but there is no one here to care about the movie thats called youre life. There is just life happening, the you was just a joke. Its not here, has never been. There is just life happening. You is just something that comes and goes as thoughts, storys, fictions, maybe a feeling. But are these storys, fictions, thoughts really you? Can you see how everything is just happening here and now and that there is no one here doing anything? You is just a layer, a cloud of thoughts that comes and claims whatever that is happening?

Seeing is happening by itself but thoughts say I am seeing.
Hearing is happening by itself but thoughts say I am hearing.
The same is with all the other senses.

Everything is functioning naturally/spontaneously and simultaneously there is a story about you that is projected on whats happening. Now I want you to really look, wich one is real. Whats happening or the story about whats happening. Wich one is real and wich one is imagination?

Honestly I dont know if the inner dialogue will diminish. Sometimes its less and sometimes its more and to be really honest I really dont care. Because there is no one here to be wanting to change what is. That one is just a phantom, fiction, story, a thought that is not really here but just in imagination. So if you stay with whats really here then there is just whats happening, can you see the you here in direct experience/do you see it with the eyes or is it just in the head as a thought? I want to stay with the presence, is that I here in direct experience or is it a layer on the now that comes and goes in thought? Do you see the I coming and going in real life in front of you?

Do you see any similarity between the thought I want to stay with the presence more and if you think/imagine that you are in a paradise Island? Is any of these 2 thoughts here in direct experience?

I think the more would be to be more in direct experience and less in internal dialogue. Sometimes, the internal dialogue matches what is true and at other times it's claiming to be the self. It would be good to let the latter go completely.

There is no you to be more in direct experience and less in internal dialogue. Everything that happens is direct experience. There is direct experience happening right now and there is thoughts, storys, fictions that is not really happening. So we have whats happening and whats not happening or what exists and what dont exist. See whats real and whats unreal then the unreal want bother you anymore.

This has nothing to do with the inner dailogue. If the inner daiolgue matches or not doesnt matter, what matter is that you know what is real and whats unreal. Naturally youre investment in whats not real will diminsh and that story can continue without there being any intrest in it.

See/look what that is that want to let go of the latter? Is the body minding having thoughts or is it thoughts that minds having thoughts?

Here you have something to work with Ken. Really look into all these questions. These things keep on trick you, confuse you as long as you dont look into these and see how things really are. Beliving me or not will not do it. So truly look. Because only the looking will remove the confusion, not you beliving what I am saying.

So go to work : )

[kenmorgan]

Dear Behzad
Thanks for your detailed reply and your persistence in directing me back to direct experience. I will go to work as you say and give a reply tomorrow.
Regards
Ken

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

Can you look and see when the thought arise that says that I want to stay with the presence. Is that refering to an entity that can do that or is it just another thought that comes and goes?

No, there's no entity there.There was no self before and there's no self now. Even so something has changed as a result of our interaction. What is that change? Presence is just presence. Thoughts can't think or see through themselves. It seems like something changed but I can't actually find anything that changed. There is a knowing that thoughts are not self, that the stories are a fiction. The knowing is without thought.

The doer is seen as something unreal. And when that is seen then there is no one left to do anything anymore. All the thoughts of being a doer still arise but there is a knowing now that those are not true.

This is a knowing without thoughts, just like we recognise a person immediately upon seeing him. On seeing a thought that says "I am", it is immediately recognised as an imposter or maybe the recognition is not so immediate sometimes just as sometimes you might get fully absorbed in a film but on some level you always know that it's not real.

So, take a look if there is anyone to stay with the presence?
There is a presence here, but is there something behind it that can stay with it or loose that presence?

There's definitely no one to stay in the presence. There's either thoughts or not but nothing essentially changes whether they are present or not. There's nothing that can stay with presence or lose it.

What I see is a spontaneous happening of life. In knowing that, there is a feeling of freedom.

Who is continuing? Who wants less of the claiming?

I can't see anyone who can continue or who can want less claiming. These are just thoughts arising, just concepts with no referent.

I see there's nothing to do, nothing to be free from, just a flow of sensations and thought happening. There is no one who wants anything, just wanting - thinking and feeling.

Is it any problem if the inner dialogue continues and claims to be the doer as long as you know that there is no doer, no you to do anything?

There is no problem whatever is happening. There is no one who knows that there is no doer - only a knowing.

But are these storys, fictions, thoughts really you? Can you see how everything is just happening here and now and that there is no one here doing anything? You is just a layer, a cloud of thoughts that comes and claims whatever that is happening?

Yes, I see it! The reality is what is actually happening which includes thoughts and feelings but not the fictions/stories told by thoughts. There is a feeling of relief in knowing the stories are not real.

Now I want you to really look, wich one is real. Whats happening or the story about whats happening. Wich one is real and wich one is imagination?

The only reality is what is happening. The stories about what's happening are a fiction, just imagination.

So if you stay with whats really here then there is just whats happening, can you see the you here in direct experience/do you see it with the eyes or is it just in the head as a thought? I want to stay with the presence, is that I here in direct experience or is it a layer on the now that comes and goes in thought? Do you see the I coming and going in real life in front of you?

I can clearly see there is no "I" anywhere - it's just a thought that doesn't refer to anything real. The thought "I" comes and goes but nothing real. There are long periods when even the thought doesn't come up at all. In the past there was an assumption when the thought "I" came up, that there was something real existing even when no thought "I" was present - that was just a totally false belief.

Do you see any similarity between the thought I want to stay with the presence more and if you think/imagine that you are in a paradise Island? Is any of these 2 thoughts here in direct experience?

I see that these two thoughts are identical in nature. The "I" is a fiction and both "more presence" and "paradise island" are fictions. None of this is a direct experience.

Naturally youre investment in whats not real will diminsh and that story can continue without there being any intrest in it.
See/look what that is that want to let go of the latter? Is the body minding having thoughts or is it thoughts that minds having thoughts?

There is no one to let go of anything. The thoughts make no difference to presence. It is only thoughts that raise any problem about thoughts. There is no real problem whatever happens.

I play the piano which is a perfect example of things just happening. Whether I'm reading music or playing spontaneously, both just happen. There is no thinking involved - the hands just move. In fact, any effort to think about or remember something just interfere with the process. I see there is no decision apart from the action itself. If I'm extemporising, I don't know what I will play until my fingers move. There does appear to be an intelligence at work but not my intelligence.

There is an effortless quality to life because there is no one to make any effort. Amazing!
Love
Ken

[Behzad]

This is beautuful Ken, this sounds like beautiful music to my ears, really good work : )

In the begining of our conversation I felt you were clear but there were something not quite right. I didnt feel you were speaking from the truth but you were speaking about the truth. But now I truly feel you loud and clear.

I am really glad to see this being clear in you.

Take somee time and please answer these questions as clear as possible. Most of them are answered already but this can be quite good so other guides also can take a look and see if they have any questions for you.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Lots of love to you
Behzad

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is and never was any separate "self" in any shape or form. It's just a concept which thoughts create and which doesn't actually refer to anything real.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is a story told by thoughts and associated with a group of sensations which thoughts label as the body. Thoughts continually point to a central controller called "I" and claim that this "I" owns a body which has five senses and the associated sensations. The thoughts are real, the sensations and perceptions are real and because of this they lend an illusory reality to "I". But the labels "body", "I", "mine" have no basis in anything.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before I started this it felt like there was a real centre, an "I", a controller, directing actions and making decisions. Now it feels like actions and thoughts just happen spontaneously. There is a sense of freedom and relaxation as things just happen spontaneously.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Prior to LU any looking had not been as ruthless. The final push was being redirected at every turn away from stories and back to direct experience and seeing that everything just happened - actions, thoughts, feelings etc with no controller at all. To keep looking and finding no control or centre anywhere finally squashed any possible objections.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

There is no "I" to decide, intend, choose, control events. So I don't make anything happen. There is no knowledge of an action until it happens. A good example is playing the piano. It's a complicated process but the whole thing just happens.

6) Anything to add?

Only to thank LU and you, Behzad, for allowing me to engage in this process.
Love
Ken

[Behzad]

I am going to let some other guides look at youre answers and see if there may be further questions from other guides.

I will let you know as soon as I know anything : ))

[Behzad]

Ken, you said that "The final push was being redirected at every turn away from stories and back to direct experience and seeing that everything just happened - actions, thoughts, feelings etc with no controller at all. To keep looking and finding no control or centre anywhere finally squashed any possible objections."

Could you please elaborate by what you mean by "squashed any possible objections." ? Thanks : )

[kenmorgan]

Hi Behzad

Could you please elaborate by what you mean by "squashed any possible objections." ?

Maybe my choice of words was not so good!

It means that whereas before thoughts would arise which imply a controller, like for example "I'd like to be more in direct experience and less in internal dialogue" and might be taken seriously for a while, now they may arise but are seen as just thoughts arising. I think "squashed" was the wrong word, it's more that thoughts have lost their power in terms of creating the fictional "I".

Love
Ken