Thread for Dai

[Dai]

Thanks T

So no self to find, in my experience, as experiencer, doer, agent, planner, etc. I call it "my" experienceas it seems linguistically necessary, but in fact it is the only experience around, and it includes everything, froma distant star to the finger on this hand on the keyboard. And in this experience there is no self, doer, experiencer to be found. What happens in this experience just happens. That seems to be it

Another reflection - I had a cold over the last couple of days. Unpleasant symptoms, though not too awful or life threatening. Able to see them as sensations, and they come and go. I do wonder though, if they became much worse, really life threatening, would that still hold, or would the thoughtoverwhelm me, this is ME, this is the end of ME. In other words, has this new paradigm really been absorbed into the bones and guts of thinking, or is it a bit of a fair weather change at the moment?

Time will tell, I guess, and this is clearly something that has to be practised consistently over a period of time. I will be interested in your views

all the best

D

[jowate]

Hi D,

The reflection is just that - a bit of speculative thinking. Has the paradigm shift been absorbed? Essentially, the question is 'right now, is there doubt / uncertainty or beliefs that still support the self-view?' If the view has been seen through, it's also known that instances of selfing and being overwhelmed can still happen. It doesn't mean there's a real 'me' responsible for it.

It may help consolidate and clarify this (which seems to me to be, very probably, you having passed 'the gate') if you respond to the 'final questions'. Here they are:

By Nona Parry in LU Central (Files) · Edit doc
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

T.

[Dai]

Hi T

Sorry for the delay - I have been reflecting on this stuff. And that's in one of the answers! Anyway - here we go

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

In experience, right now, it is clear that all aspects of experience are just that - elements of experience. There is no one part that can be labelled "self" or "me". Not in any form of sensation - sight, sound, touch etc, nor in emotional response or in thoughts is there an "I" to be identified. That is the case now, and as the nature of these elements have remained the same in their nature, that must always have been the case, though not necessarily perceived as such at the time

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

So I would think that the illusion of the self emerges as our self awareness develops in childhood, reinforced by the acquisition of language when labelling inevitably emerges along with concepts. So "I" am doing this, "you" are over there. And "you" "them" become "other". Language solidifies the concept into an apparent reality. So it starts, in a way, with "I was born"!!
It can restart each morning, as our consciousness re-assembles itself, until there is that paradigm shift and the re-assembling and labelling is seen as an association of changing parts, none of them having a label of "I" in themselves. And it is most likely to start in circumstances prone to "I"/"me" making - when ones views are challenged, when craving is provoked, or anger. In those situations, either the "I" will arise before it is recognised, or it will be seen to be emerging, like a dog awaking from sleep, and recognised for the process it is.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The main feature of how it seems to feel, is that it is profoundly restful. There does not seem to be that restless, striving energy in maintaining and protecting something. Mental chatter is less, though still present, and there is much less reactivity. Hence much more of a gentle sort of pleasure and appreciation of what is going on in experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I am not quite clear what is meant here. I am not aware of a "last bit" - it is more a acknowledgement and recognition of something that had been growing in my experience. This probably started with an exposure to "headlessness" a number of years ago. This had a profound effect, and felt very strong and "real" at the time but the tools were not available then to follow through and fully realise the experience. It has been working away in the background since, and almost completely surfaced on a retreat last Sept/ Oct. Now this dialogue appears to have brought it into full view.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

As far as can be seen from experience, or in experience, events, actions, speech just happen. There is not a "doer" or "initiator" to be seen. The most current example is writing this piece. I could surmise that this stuff has been rumbling away in the background somewhere, but whatever was going on, in experience I awoke from sleep with this material in mind, and came down and started to write it out. And this is the result. And this seems to be the way things occur - a decision emerges and actions occur

6) Anything to add?

That's it!

all the best

D

[jowate]

Hi D,

Thanks! Ok a couple of points / questions:

… In those situations, either the "I" will arise before it is recognised, or it will be seen to be emerging, like a dog awaking from sleep, and recognised for the process it is.

Do you mean that the ‘sense’ of I – the appearances on which ‘I’ was formerly projected – arise, followed by ‘recognition’ that it’s not-‘I’?

And this seems to be the way things occur - a decision emerges and actions occur

Are these two necessarily connected, in experience?

You also wrote in your previous post:

has this new paradigm really been absorbed into the bones and guts of thinking, or is it a bit of a fair weather change at the moment?

So – do you feel quite clear and certain ‘in the bones and guts’ … i.e. more deeply than thinking, that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

All the best,

T.

[Dai]

Thanks T

I will muse on this for a while and get back to you shortly

D

[Dai]

Hi T

Good to be in communication again. i Would like to address your last questions in reverse order

has this new paradigm really been absorbed into the bones and guts of thinking, or is it a bit of a fair weather change at the moment?

Well, I have been reflecting on this over the past few days, trying to become clear about whether this new sense of expansion, calmness, engagement, pleasure and inclusiveness would persist, whether it would be consistent through the day, would remain as deep. As far as it is possible to see at this point it has done so, suggesting that there has been a fundamental change in the way of experiencing. There does not seem to be the attachment to the importance of, or any challenge to "my" position, situations where there are different options seem much more open and less threatening and angst producing

And this seems to be the way things occur - a decision emerges and actions occur


Are these two necessarily connected, in experience?

That's very interesting. In experience there is no obvious decision or decider, just the action itself that emerges.

… In those situations, either the "I" will arise before it is recognised, or it will be seen to be emerging, like a dog awaking from sleep, and recognised for the process it is.


Do you mean that the ‘sense’ of I – the appearances on which ‘I’ was formerly projected – arise, followed by ‘recognition’ that it’s not-‘I’?

I'm not sure I quite understand the bit "the appearances on which ‘I’ was formerly projected". To try to explain the experience in a different way - a thought might arise, which seems to feature "I" as the originator or active agent, and that thought will persist or develope until there is a recognition that this mode of thinking is going on, at which point it will be "seen through" and dropped

I'm not sure that is entirely clear - it seems the best I can do for now. Do poke me if you want more

all the best

D

[jowate]

Hi D,

Do you mean that the ‘sense’ of I – the appearances on which ‘I’ was formerly projected – arise, followed by ‘recognition’ that it’s not-‘I’?

I'm not sure I quite understand the bit "the appearances on which ‘I’ was formerly projected". To try to explain the experience in a different way - a thought might arise, which seems to feature "I" as the originator or active agent, and that thought will persist or develope until there is a recognition that this mode of thinking is going on, at which point it will be "seen through" and dropped

That did in fact address what I was trying to get at! It looks to me that it's just about time to put this thread up for review by fellow guides. So ... any remaining doubts, however slight?

T.

[Dai]

No, I think that expresses where things stand at the moment

Good to hear from you, speak again soon

D

[jowate]

Hi D,

Ok, I'm going to put this up for other guides to review and possibly suggest further questions.

T.

[Dai]

Thanks T.

Questions are good - help clarify things. Looking forward to hearing more

D

[jowate]

Hi D,

Sorry for delay - been travelling. I've got some question to pass on, will post them for you tomorrow.

T.

[jowate]

Hi D,

Hmmm, thought I had written something & in fact I had, but for some reason the posts sent from Brighton at the weekend didn't get through. Anyway, here it is:

Need a couple of clarifications here:

" There does not seem to be the attachment to the importance of, or any challenge to "my" position, situations where there are different options seem much more open and less threatening and angst producing"

"much more open and less threatening" – Is what you are describing here an ‘after effect’ of having passed through the gate or does it refer the gate itself? Naturally there are consequences of seeing through the self-view, we just want to be clear as to what exactly you’re describing here.

Another is an observation that you qualify having absorbed it on the basis of expansion, calmness, engagement, pleasure and inclusiveness. In this case, what happens if/when these things become absent in your experience? - Does it still require something (e.g. some particular 'positive' thing) in your experience to validate it?

T.

[Dai]

Great, welcome back T, and hope your weekend was enjoyable

And the posts have come through now

So you ask

"much more open and less threatening" – Is what you are describing here an ‘after effect’ of having passed through the gate or does it refer the gate itself? Naturally there are consequences of seeing through the self-view, we just want to be clear as to what exactly you’re describing here.

Yes, this feels like an after effect. The whole of experience is operating in a larger, free-er space, not constrained by thoughts of "my" issues and anxieties. It seems that experience can just "be", and courses of action will emerge.

The other question you raise is

Another is an observation that you qualify having absorbed it on the basis of expansion, calmness, engagement, pleasure and inclusiveness. In this case, what happens if/when these things become absent in your experience? - Does it still require something (e.g. some particular 'positive' thing) in your experience to validate it?

I am not quite sure what is meant by "requiring something in my experience to validate it". The experience is that those qualities mentioned are the qualities of experience itself. They are present in it, or more like are the qualities or space in which experience is experienced. Seems like verbal experience is falling over itself here! Anyway, they just appear to be constant qualities. For example, I was unwell over the weekend, so there was discomfort and malaise present in experience, but overall the sense of experience was much wider than those sensations, easliy contained them, and it was clear that there was much else present in experience that was not discomfort. There was just room there for everything to be present

As usual, a bit hard to describe or convey, but hope you get the gist

all the best

D