Nina

[richardcooper2k]

Hello again :-)

Sounds like noticing sensation is working well as a way of dis-identifying with thought.

Ok, so you have seen that all real objects can be found in experience - e.g. body, chair

You have also seen that the idea of there being a self is just an idea that is projected onto experience. For example often sensations that arise in the body are labeled as "self". So then there is an illusion of selfhood created. But the sensation is just a sensation. The idea of there being a self only exists in thought.

Now look at thoughts. They arrive and pass away. They appear in experience.
They are just thoughts , they can't think.
Check this out - can a thought think ?

So if there is no self, thoughts can't think - they just arise and pass
How can there be a thinker ?
What can let go of the self ?
What is controlling the body ?
What makes decisions ?

Can you find anything ? Or are all these apparent functions projected onto an apparent self ?
Just thoughts ?

Test it out
Get up and walk around - is there a controller required or does walking just happen ?
Can you pinpoint the moment when the decision is made to stop walking ?

warmest wishes, Richard

[Detox]

This came at 8pm my time - and I am just about to go to bed - as was up at 5am. So I will attend to this tomorrow. To give it proper reflection. Thank You for supporting me in my stove room. So traumatized, unnerved and inspired by Descartes, and his stove room experience. I realize what traumatized me was his outcome - I think therefore I am. I blame him for my hedonistic 20s of trying to find the meaning of this. And now I know why I could not find the meaning of this. I think therefore I am deluded. I don't think I am awake.
with kindness Detox

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Detox that's fine
I am in the UK. Are you in the Americas somewhere ?

There is no need to believe in what i am saying, in fact it would be a mistake to do so
Just look and investigate your own experience
We are just exploring the habitual assumptions that are made about experience

Medical research has shown that electro chemical processes in the brain can be detected that correspond to decisions apparently being made. BUT these processes happen some seconds before a person thinks they are making a decision.

Look closely at what is happening in experience. The mind is like a labeling machine. Whatever appears in experience is then labeled - chair, body, etc. The labels are just thoughts. When something is done the mind labels "i have done this". When a decision appears to be made the thought label appears "i have decided to do this.

Is this true ?

Here is a lovely poem from Rumi:

This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new
arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness
comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if
they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its
furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you
out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet
them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever
comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

Could he be pointing at the same thing ?

[Detox]

Now look at thoughts. They arrive and pass away. They appear in experience.
They are just thoughts , they can't think.
Check this out - can a thought think ?

Can a thought think. No I think. The Fixed self thinks. A Thought arises and ceases, but when I grasp at it, I label it and the self arises. My big ego. And then thinking happens.

So if there is no self, thoughts can't think - they just arise and pass
How can there be a thinker ?
What can let go of the self ?
What is controlling the body ?
What makes decisions ?

How can there be a thinker?

Well I think and when I think one of my fixed self's is thinking.

What can let go of self? T

he labelling. The reacting to thoughts. The labelling of sensations. Realising that when I label it is an illusion or indeed a delusion.

What is controlling the body?

Bodily sensations. It can't be anything else. Just sensation.

What makes decisions?

The fixed self makes decisions. The thinker makes decisions. The thinker is a fixed deluded self.

Can you find anything ? Or are all these apparent functions projected onto an apparent self ?
Just thoughts ?

I keep on looking and I can't find myself. And then when I think I have found myself - exactly the word think. I have begun thinking. When I think I begin to project onto the illusory self. Not deluded self - if I say deluded - than I have created a label that pertains to the fact that there must be an un deluded self. So I see self is an illusion.

Test it out
Get up and walk around - is there a controller required or does walking just happen ?
Can you pinpoint the moment when the decision is made to stop walking

?

I found myself downstairs boiling the kettle – and how did I get there – habit? Am I programmed? A sensation from my brain triggering me to walk. When I stop – there are so many things to walking. And yet rarely if ever am I aware of all the actions it takes to walk. When I stop. I can answer more clearly this one. Over the years when I have set out to do yoga practice at home – I was astounded how I would just stop – that was it. I would set out to do the hole ashstanga rountine but i stopped after half hour abruptly. And I couldn't fathom out – all I told myself I was moving away from difficult thoughts. But what I can remember was the strong physical sensation that stopped me. Aha so sensation stops me walking and gets me walking.

with kindness Detox

[Detox]

Yes I am on Seattle Time.

There is no need to believe in what i am saying, in fact it would be a mistake to do so
Just look and investigate your own experience
We are just exploring the habitual assumptions that are made about experience

I hear you.

Medical research has shown that electro chemical processes in the brain can be detected that correspond to decisions apparently being made. BUT these processes happen some seconds before a person thinks they are making a decision.

Look closely at what is happening in experience. The mind is like a labeling machine. Whatever appears in experience is then labeled - chair, body, etc. The labels are just thoughts. When something is done the mind labels "i have done this". When a decision appears to be made the thought label appears "i have decided to do this

.

Is this true ?

Reflecting on this for today.

Here is a lovely poem from Rumi:

This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new
arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness
comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if
they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its
furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you
out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet
them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever
comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

Could he be pointing at the same thing ?

[/quote]

Yes I love this poem. Ten years ago - I wrote this poem in response. I had such an overwhelming sensation when I heard this poem - read it several times - and hence I wrote this in response.
here it is



THE GUEST HOME

The visitor has finally
Arrived-
Welcomed in at the waiting room-
She has been hovering at my threshold-
A million years to be exact-
And now she wants to move in-
Take up a tenancy in my new abode-
No squatting rights – just a deluded mind.

My last visitor arrived still-
Born
Before I took my first gasp of polluted air-
No idea how long this visitor will stay for this time-
But she is expectant of an immortal life-
Not sure how to warn that this body has suffered-
Burnt a hundred times and left to decompose-
My guest home - just a knackered body.

And now I will do another rewrite of the poem. Seeing more clearly what Rumi was pointing at.

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Detox
sorry to be throwing so much at you
i will try to slow down a bit in an attempt to create a more reflective interaction

I keep on looking and I can't find myself. And then when I think I have found myself - exactly the word think. I have begun thinking. When I think I begin to project onto the illusory self. Not deluded self - if I say deluded - than I have created a label that pertains to the fact that there must be an un deluded self. So I see self is an illusion.

Good. So you see that when thinking happens, it appears to create a self. So how does that work ?

Thoughts just "pop up" in experience. Quite often another thought will pop up seems to follow on from the first. Then another. And so on. This creates a "stream" of thoughts.

What if this creates the illusion of "me thinking" ? A sequence of thoughts appear in awareness and the mind labels this as "me thinking". Even though there is no "me thinking". There are just thoughts arising. The concept "me thinking" only exists as a thought.

Take some time to investigate this in your own experience

Even after the self is seen through thoughts still arise. Some of these thoughts will probably still create the illusion of a self. That's normal. It is not something we are doing. Just thoughts arising.

Richard

[Detox]

Good Morning Richard -- well another label as it is early evening where you are. Thank you for reminding me to take space to reflect. I realize the I has been working very hard at forcing to let go of I. And there is nothing to force. The I has had a sense of frustration of not getting it quick enough - but there is nothing to get. The I then goes into a fixed self of poor me. Richard will give up on me if I don't get this quick enough and what is there to get. So where the I has imprisoned me. I can't believe I have been chanting the heart sutra for over 20 years and that I still cling on to an I. I can see there is no me, you or I. But there is a part of me clinging on. As I walked along the beach this morning - there was sensation - it arose and the self - labelled it as sad. The thought said sad - and then I began to investigate why sad. Then I paused - and realized this sensation could have been easily labelled joy - because it was a sensation arising out of me accepting a bit more that there there is no I, me or you. I have tried looking for it - and there is body - that is the bit I cling to. The body - not surprising as the body has controlled my world in many ways - or so I have thought. So there is body - but there is no I in the body, or me in the body - but there is body. And that is what I'm clinging too.

Hi Detox
sorry to be throwing so much at you
i will try to slow down a bit in an attempt to create a more reflective interaction

Good. So you see that when thinking happens, it appears to create a self. So how does that work ?

By the me labelling. Whenever I label something I am creating self.

Thoughts just "pop up" in experience. Quite often another thought will pop up seems to follow on from the first. Then another. And so on. This creates a "stream" of thoughts.
What if this creates the illusion of "me thinking" ?

But there is no thinker - so me thinking is me labelling. When I think - I can not find the thinker - I'm trying to find the thinker now and it is stressful. I can't find the thinker. But I can hear thinking going on as I write. But no thinker.

A sequence of thoughts appear in awareness and the mind labels this as "me thinking". Even though there is no "me thinking". There are just thoughts arising. The concept "me thinking" only exists as a thought

.

huh--- yes me thinking is a thought. that is all it is. A thought that becomes a label.

Take some time to investigate this in your own experience

There is no thinker right now. Thoughts arising and ceasing and I can't hear them. But you know when I meditated this morning. I was so aware of such unrelated thoughts popping up in my head. Where on earth did they come from. Just thoughts nothing to do with me. As soon as I became aware of such thoughts I moved back to sensations. But I was aware of these thoughts. I have been aware how sometimes in meditation I get thoughts and I think where the hell did they come from? of course I let them go once I hear them . A sequence of thoughts appear and I become acutely aware that there not even my business. So why do these thoughts arise. Do they really arise out of nothingness?

Even after the self is seen through thoughts still arise. Some of these thoughts will probably still create the illusion of a self. That's normal. It is not something we are doing. Just thoughts arising.

[richardcooper2k]

I can see there is no me, you or I

Right, good looking - if "I" only exists in thought then it is the same for "others".

I have tried looking for it - and there is body - that is the bit I cling to. The body - not surprising as the body has controlled my world in many ways - or so I have thought. So there is body - but there is no I in the body, or me in the body - but there is body. And that is what I'm clinging too.

Lets have a closer look at this. Is "body" another label ? Can you find anything else in experience other than sensation and what is seen, heard, tasted, touched ?

You may be familiar with the Bahiya sutta ? In the seen only the seen, in the heard only the heard, in the sensed only the sensed, i the cognized only the cognized.
Does it make sense now ?

Investigations are coming along nicely :-)

Best regards, Richard



A mysterious sense of "I amness" may remain. Does it need a label ?

[Detox]

Lets have a closer look at this. Is "body" another label ?

yes body is another a label

Can you find anything else in experience other than sensation and what is seen, heard, tasted, touched ?

No I can't right now. I am going to investigate this more. Interesting I am away from home til monday - no private space and as I write there is conversation going on. No private space to get away - sharing a friends room and in communal house and all what is heard is sensation. So right now trying not to make sense of words or hear the words - and all that is felt is sensation. All that is tasted is sensation be it bitter, sweet, pungent, astringent. spicy. touch is most definitely sensation - that is all it is. Seeing is sensation - I look at things and have different sensation.

You may be familiar with the Bahiya sutta ? In the seen only the seen, in the heard only the heard, in the sensed only the sensed, i the cognized only the cognized.
Does it make sense now ?

Yes I lament why can't I get it right on the spot just like Bahiya did when he heard those above words. Do I need to be driven by fear to get it like he was? And what is there to get? I haven't realized it yet. I feel like something is hovering on the thresh hold of something. Hovering and clawing on to the fragility of the fixed self which refuses to let go. I am afraid. Fear has arisen. And this fear is holding onto the notion of body. The mind is taking hold of an illusion. Fear is latching. This fear is fear of change - I can't believe I have fear of change - afraid that I will have to let go of what I have always known. Afraid I will have to let go of what I am doing right now with my body (interesting i wrote body when i meant to write life so i won't correct it). The hindrance of ill will has arisen today and ceased several times the mind latching on to a scenario that the fixed self obviously has not let go of. But i didn't get caught in the tape loop. I see craving loosening too. The mind not habitually acting on craving. I can feel something changing and it is scary and I am trying to hold on. There is stillness now and the sensation is calm once again. Time to pause.

Thank you - for your questioning it is most helpful - thank you



Best regards, Richard



A mysterious sense of "I amness" may remain. Does it need a label ?[/quote]

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Detox
Thank you for the openness of your answers, it is very helpful
Hope you are having a nice time with your friends

The way i read the Bahiya sutta, it is pointing to reality being sensation and thoughts , rather than the belief of thoughts which are just labels.

You don't need to let go of anything (how could you). Just notice what is already happening - the way things already are.

Fixed self only exists in thought - it can't do anything. That's all we are looking to see here

Ill will, craving, etc will probably carry on arising for the time being (which seems the case here (for me) although, like you have noticed, they may have weakened). If you are familiar with the 10 fetters model you can see the fetters of ill-will and craving are usually broken later. Self view is the first.

Fear has a job to do. It's job is to tell us when the body is in physical danger. Look to see if this is true. Then you can embrace fear, thanking it for protecting you and see if it wants to relax.

Let me know what comes up and about any remaining doubts

Richard

[Detox]

Thanks Richard there is nothing to get. The charge has gone in the sense of the goal for entering the stream. I can see how I was grasping after something. Today I was walking in urban nature at dusk and I caught myself labeling ocean and I just said it's an illusion. And guess what when I Got closer up all it was - was the wooden panels of three houses. I laughed in that moment I could see how I have labeled things in the past and clung onto my thoughts.

Ive been reciting the heart sutra these past few days - learning it like an actor - so not rote learning the lines - but understanding the subtext of each line.

What the mind takes hold of

Now I understand that all my mind has been doing is taking hold of stuff.

Holding to nothing what ever - But dwelling in pranja wisdom is freed of delusive hindrance rid of the fear bred by it and reaches clearest nirvana

When I let go of holding onto all my thoughts and fixed identities fear just slips away. The crunch line comes for me earlier - It was as if I was hearing it for the first time

Not even wisdom to attain - attainment too is emptiness

Its like a welcomed relief. I've over identified with the mind - thinking the mind will lead me to wisdom. My senses would lead me too. But there is

no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, no colour, sound, smell, taste or touch or what the mind takes hold of not even act of sensing

Yes I am familiar with the ten fetters - When I came along to my sangha 22 years ago people spoke of stream entry - entering the stream and I had no concept of what they were talking about. And over the years I began to understand but it became a goal - there is no goal now

Hear and believe its truth -

I have no doubt in the dharma - in the teachings of the buddha and I do not see rights and rituals as guarantee to spiritual progress - and so I have been flummoxed because the first fetter I was still attached to permanent self. Saw it as linear - if I can't see there is no permanent self - then do I still have doubt - and as I asked that question - of course I did have some doubt - as the first fetter is the third lakshana - third mark of human existence. And although I understood the first suffering and the second impermanence. I struggled with the third. And now see that actually I was suffering and not really seeing through impermanence while I remained attached to the first fetter.

Thank you for reminding me about the fourth and fifth fetter that of course they will still arise - I know that and had a sharp realization in January. In brief it was as if my life of craving unfolded in front of me. It was an oh my god moment - not sure if i was awake of if the words woke me up - but i saw clearly how i had come into the world with such strong craving more than the average new born - due to the conditions of my rebirth and childhood and adolescence. And as I saw it - I realized then - no wonder craving has had such a strong pull over me - and it will take time to loosen - but in that moment it had loosened a samskara uprooted - and of course I will have to experience more craving and ill will arising - but i can be with it now much more compassionately.

Nor is there pain, or cause of pain, or cease in pain, or noble path to lead from pain - no wisdom to attain -

Its corny - but I feel liberated - and that will change as there is no I. But the sensation of freedom is arising in my heart/mind - as a dharma practitioner there is still a journey.

My one question is - how do I keep this alive in my practice? let me write that sentence again - how do the five skandhas that makes up the body - make sense of it as they continue to exist in this body?

Not wanting to grasp - but not wanting to loose this realization of no I, me exists. That there is nothing to take hold of - how does that stay alive as life continues to unfold?

Thank you so much for this guiding - I was not expecting to be pointed back in the direction the moon - this time not looking at the finger pointing at the moon - but gazing beyond the moon -and found myself gazing beyond the heart sutra - it's as if knowing has been staring me in the face for many years. Ten years ago at plum village - I gasped - that's it. The heart sutra its in the heart sutra. (I had been reciting it for ten years all ready). Ten more years in ignorance

No ignorance or end of it, nor all that comes from ignorance, no withering, no death, no end of them

huh and i'm still hauling the water and chopping the wood. But with a bit more clarity and different perspective.

Can one give dana to this site?

And one day I would love to help share this gift - of training to be a guide. When the time is right - and it is seen that I am ready to take this next step.

Thank you - with much gratitude

[richardcooper2k]

Ive been reciting the heart sutra these past few days - learning it like an actor - so not rote learning the lines - but understanding the subtext of each line.

Ha - yes, the Heart Suttra takes on a new beauty when read post gate - it did for me at least.

My favourite line - "The Bodhisattva, holding to nothing what ever - But dwelling in pranja wisdom is freed of delusive hindrance and rid of the fear bred by it"

One thing to note is the tendancy of the mind will try to "get" it and reduce it to a conceptual understanding.

My one question is - how do I keep this alive in my practice? let me write that sentence again - how do the five skandhas that makes up the body - make sense of it as they continue to exist in this body?

Not wanting to grasp - but not wanting to loose this realization of no I, me exists. That there is nothing to take hold of - how does that stay alive as life continues to unfold?

Just the noticing of life continuing to unfold. There is nothing to loose and nobody is doing it. Nobody practicing. Practicing just happens. The skandhas can't choose to do anything can they ?
Thoughts of "me" may arise, but how are they different in essence from anything else ?
Now the illusion has been seen/recognised, it cannot be unseen.

I find meditation useful as when the mind calms down, noticing seems to happen more readily.
It is interesting to see if there is anything meditating. Is it just a habit ? Is anything doing the adjustments (posture, directing the mind, etc) or is experience and "meditation" just happening ?

I can certainly recommend guiding - i feel lucky to have this opportunity

I will ask about dana

Richard

[Detox]

I find meditation useful as when the mind calms down, noticing seems to happen more readily.
It is interesting to see if there is anything meditating. Is it just a habit ? Is anything doing the adjustments (posture, directing the mind, etc) or is experience and "meditation" just happening ?

experience and meditation just happening - everything could be called meditation - mindless meditation or mindful meditation.

So is this it - do we have more work to do? happy if we have more work to do - please advise - be good to have some clarity

[richardcooper2k]

OK, if you are satisfied that seeking has finished, there are some set questions
Other guides will look at your answers and may have more questions for you

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Take your time, no rush
Please answer without Buddhist jargon as not all guides are from that background
I will be interested to read them too :-)

[richardcooper2k]

Forgot to mention - i asked about donations and got the following answer :

We don't have registered organisation, so no, there is no LU that can take donations, it is very rare that people would offer that. Thank the person kindly and if you are both comfortable with that, accept his donation to you, since it was you that guided him. Also, say that there are ways to contribute- like helping someone else by pass this gift forward.

I am not comfortable accepting money so you will just have to pass this gift forward. In fact that would be the biggest gift you could give me as well. :-) But no pressure. Only when you are ready.