For Perrym Getting started

[perrym]

:-)

wonderful image - spot on.

perhaps something shifted?

feel free to ignore my post if you would like to explore something more immediate

x
Perry

[Amara G]

hi,

Today has been interesting.Last night and and today til about 4 o'clock there was a real sense of my molecule's being rearranged. A clarity that there is no self. A sense of being released from prison. Although there was some doubts 'i've been here before, this is just a 'state' it won't last.' It's hard not to get identified with the feelings that arise on the basis of this. Either... 'this isn't a big enough experience' or 'this pleasant expansive non stickiness, is too good to last' Wasn't able to recongnise these both as stories.

its hard to see how having the kids get enough sleep, get to school on time and practise their instruments does not depend on an I in charge!

Perry:
So what would "I" contribute to all this? Which element of the process requires "I" for it to happen?

Been thinking about this... as tomorrow I have to get packed up, me and 2 children to go to a small retreat which I am leading ( with others). Both these things I have believed involve 'inchargeness'. What does that mean? What element of the process requires I for it to happen..." Well All of it. If I didn't get out of bed it wouldn't happen. It comes back to that perceived necessary tension. I can feel tension creeping into my body at just the thought of 'having' to do these 2 things. Get us on the road and leading the retreat. Perhaps 'I' for me on these occasions means having a plan that I have confidence in. But it does have the feeling of needing a military operation to get it to happen.(effectively or to my satisfaction)

ok - so just saw that the 'military operation thing' is a conditioned response to certain stimuli - thoughts. It is not 'me'
there is fear and if I create tension it gives me the illusion of being solid and existing. A strategy which is suppose to be helpful but just ends up causing me tension and a headache sometimes. Then I can claim credit or be smug about how well something turned out. There can be an idea of what needs to happen.... car pulling out of drive. Then there can be the observing of what actually is happening. The thought arises....'well what am I responsible for then.....'

Tomorrow will unfold on the basis of conditions...this can either be seen or not. One produces more stress in the body than the other.

AAAAHHHHH it's like some kind of jelly like cling on, that wants to return to its habitual place of residence.

Anyway...I may well not post again until monday. Or I may take my computer?????

Thanks for reading

A

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

A clarity that there is no self. A sense of being released from prison. Although there was some doubts 'i've been here before, this is just a 'state' it won't last.'

The distinction between 'realisation' and 'a state' can be useful ... a state in which the sense of self falls away is not the same as realising that there is no self.

.... and yet, as you describe it, this was a 'clarity that there is no self', which seems to be pointing in the right direction

Could I ask: was this clarity that there is no self - and that there never has been? I assume so...

In which case, when doubts arose .... how could they contradict this? Doubting thoughts are just doubting thoughts, arising without a thinker

Or do doubting thoughts come cloaked in a such a pungently familiar sense of self that you did not notice that they were 'just thoughts'? I guess this is what you mean by "Wasn't able to recongnise these both as stories."

So the clarity IS there (sometimes) ... but there is some aspect of the 'doubting thoughts' that is still not seen through, that still seems substantial, to be "I". What is it? Can you go through the aspects of the direct experience and identify what 'hooks'? What seems to be there that is 'more than' another passing thought, feeling, impulse or sensation?

'inchargeness' [...] 'military operation'

So "I" is what makes decisions, "I" is that which wills, plans and makes things happen....

To go back to my earlier question .... which of these things actually requires "I"?

Take decisions ... do these really require an "I"? Or do they arise naturally out of conditions, without a 'decider'? Well, you know the answer intellectually, but what do you find in direct experience?

Try a wee exercise:

Sit with your hand on your leg. Decide that your hand will rise at some point in the next minute or so, but do not decide in advance exactly when. Observe what happens.

x
Perry

[Amara G]

Hi Perry,

Hoping you are well.

Sit with your hand on your leg. Decide that your hand will rise at some point in the next minute or so, but do not decide in advance exactly when. Observe what happens.

Just spent the last 10 minutes with this exercise. I sat with my watch in front of me. Told myself to raise my hand sometime in the next minute. Nothing happened. Did this for 4 minutes each time saying I will raise my hand within the next minute. Nothing happened. So then I said I will raise the hand when the clock hand reaches 11. And the hand did raise then. Did it again 3 times. In the first 'round' I had made the decision initially - generally and then waited for the hand to rise by itself. So the 'I' that is identified was the thought. So my decision that the hand would rise at some point did not produce action. The more specific thought did. 'I shall wait for the hand to rise by itself' which it did not. But when there was the more specific thought then there was the sense and reality that 'I' had made that happen.

What I notice is that there are thoughts and sometimes they appear to produce action and sometimes they don't. Sometimes 'I' or the thought appears to have produced an action and sometimes there is just noticing that something is happening. I no longer get into a battle with myself about getting up in the morning, there is just noticing that getting up is either happening or it is not.

In the workshops that I run with people we look at how the stories we tell impact our actions. Noticing the story and what the effects of the story are, gives us the possibility of creating different stories that then create more helpful actions. This can imply there is someone to be aware of the stories and then someone choosing to see through and/or create more helpful stories. So, is it that this is happening on the basis of conditions rather than on the basis of a 'controlling I'? I have the experience of noticing thoughts that are unhelpful and then looking for a new way to think of it. Choosing happens and creation happens but on the basis of conditions not on the basis of an 'I'.

The distinction between 'realisation' and 'a state' can be useful ... a state in which the sense of self falls away is not the same as realising that there is no self.

Thanks this is helpful. I think both have occurred but important distinction! The realisation is as you said to DJ having glimpsed the palm of your hand but not knowing how to find it easily again.

Could I ask: was this clarity that there is no self - and that there never has been? I assume so...

No the second bit 'and there has never been' does not ring true yet.

Doubting thoughts are just doubting thoughts, arising without a thinker

I think doubts arise on the basis of sensations not according to expectations. If 'I' don't feel right then IT can't be right.
So paradoxically the 'state' seems more 'real' than the realisation. And so the illusion persists!

So "I" is what makes decisions, "I" is that which wills, plans and makes things happen....

Yes i think this is strong. Having said that, leaving the house for the retreat went amazingly well, having decided I did not have to be 'in charge' in order to have it all happen. (A small miracle which my children applauded me for!)

I have been working for a while with Byron Katie's " you do not make decisions... decisions make you" but this needs to be observed repeatedly I think to really sink in.

That's all for now.

Metta

A

[Amara G]

hi

At this moment 'I' is heaviness in solar plexus and the thinking that resists the heaviness. 'I' is the awareness of the heaviness and the movement of hands on keys. These are the sense of self which when not investigated are assumed to be self but which dissolve under closer inspection. Thoughts and actions gives 'me' a sense of existence. Without these their is a weirdness in not existing. More thought and sensations - in the arising. "i'm getting bored and impatient with this game now" "I should be in a different place by now"....'Not true, not true' .Resistance and rebellion help to maintain solidity.
Felt a bit alienated today. Nice chat with DJ helped. Fear... sticking with it.

A

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

Oops, I've not been getting notifications of your posts, the system must have broken... fortunately I dropped by for a look just in case! I'll reply later this evening

x
Perry

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

Just spent the last 10 minutes with this exercise.

nice work :-)

when there was the more specific thought then there was the sense and reality that 'I' had made that happen.

OK, so using the 'when the second hand gets to 11' method, there is an opportunity to look really carefully at what is going on that 'makes it happen' .... let's put 'in-charge-ness' under the microscope!

Look really carefully - what is the 'I' in 'I made it happen'?

This can imply there is someone to be aware of the stories and then someone choosing to see through and/or create more helpful stories.

Yes, 'imply' is exactly right ... our job is to question whether the implication is really true.

So, is it that this is happening on the basis of conditions rather than on the basis of a 'controlling I'?

Really good question. If it is all happening on the basis of conditions, what then is the sense of 'controlling I'? Is the sense of 'controlling I' also happening on the basis of conditions? What would this be like?

Is there anything in immediate experience right now that cannot be happening on the basis of conditions?

There is more I'd like to respond to, but maybe that is enough for the moment....

x
Perry

[Amara G]

hi Perry,

Look really carefully - what is the 'I' in 'I made it happen'?

Today lay down on the floor to rest and investigate. Lifting hand up. Really trying to see what is going on ...'who is lifting the hand?' Went into it a deep inquiry/meditation. The hand is not the hand that is known, it is a memory. The sensations present, the knowledge of everything that has come to make that hand. The hand rises, and then this plump childlike voice says "I did that".... And it is so patently absurd "no you didn't" comes the riposte. I burst into laughter and giggle for a few minutes. How can words move a hand? Another image comes to mind. A fresh steaming cow pat, a fly lands on the cow pat and says. "I did that". There's a kind of innocent bluster of a child that's kind of a lie, kind of just truly having convinced itself.

So what is the 'I' in 'I made it happen'? well it's a label that occurs after the event. It's one of the conditions that conditions what arises. Sometimes it will seem like thought causes action sometimes all the thinking in the world cannot make what 'I' want to happen to happen.

;)

Thanks for the question!

A
(for Arise-ling)

[perrym]

Hi A,

lovely, lovely, lovely!

I have a bit of cough at the moment, and this

A fresh steaming cow pat, a fly lands on the cow pat and says. "I did that".

provoked a lengthy coughing fit, hilarious!

I'll be in touch again soon,

P

[Amara G]

Hi P,

Funny/interesting how clarity and confusion can co-exist in stripes. Today moments of stillness where everything is just happening. Also clarity when the busyness of pushing and pulling with it's pain and heaviness arise.
Moments with my friend of there being only looking with no-one there. Moments when the being just feels like contorted chicken wire. Tiniest edge of being able to be aware of this as it is happening. tiniest fraction of not exactly turning towards but at least not walking out of the room and slamming the door!
Tomorrow a challenging day full of my favourite 'in-chargeness' conundrum.Stories of what the day 'should' be. The remaining 'I' longing for some solitude, longing to find rest, to stabilise in clarity, to be directed from the inner 'neutral'.

With love

A

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

So what is the 'I' in 'I made it happen'? well it's a label that occurs after the event.

This is a really valuable discovery ... so is 'I' EVER more than this? For example, when you wrote earlier:

At this moment 'I' is heaviness in solar plexus and the thinking that resists the heaviness. 'I' is the awareness of the heaviness and the movement of hands on keys. These are the sense of self which when not investigated are assumed to be self but which dissolve under closer inspection.

... so there are these sensations, the components of a 'sense of self'.... what turns these sensations into a belief in the reality self?

x
Perry

[Amara G]

Hi Perry,

See you've turned red! Phew...It's quite a commitment ....Thank you.

Experiencing a centre of gravity changing somehow. More awareness of the mountain rather than the snow on the mountain. Attention and significance has been overwhelmingly with the thinking mind as if that was the thing itself - the 'I'.Which always had a sense of superficiality about it. Or just 'not itness'. Now when there are the sensations that get labelled 'not itness' It makes more sense. Letting go of 'in chargeness' worked again today.(how can it not work? as it is the nature of reality!) But every time I let go and the imagined catastrophe doesn't happen it helps to see it a little more clearly. Not knowing what is going to happen next - even what is going to come out of my mouth.

so there are these sensations, the components of a 'sense of self'.... what turns these sensations into a belief in the reality self?

What a great question!!
Not sure.... sitting here pondering for quite a while. It's like I don't know where to look. ('I' can't look, so what is looking?) Awareness is looking in past knowledge for an answer. Redirect to direct experience. Is belief something that has to keep being believed over and over? Or once it is believed it's just in the habit life.?

Today sensations of anger arose and passed, I stayed with them as much as I could without the storyline. But noticed that my body posture was still very defensive. Which indicates that the belief in an 'I' that needs defending is still there. Perhaps not? It could be an awareness of the illusion in play. But the first seems truer.

I think 'what turns these sensations into a belief in the reality of self' is the need for solidity, and then it becomes a habit. But however much solidity we create, it's never enough. (We can never get enough of what we don't really want)

What is a belief? how is it different from a thought? Is it just thought + enough evidence? or is thoughts + conditions that create a sense of threat to survival so it gets physiologically logged as necessary for survival. A bit like a fear of bats or something. You know they are not going to harm you but physically you respond as it your life is in peril.

I would like to be able to 'catch' this happening. Happy will have the opportunity for more meditation as I will be going on retreat this Friday.

All the best

A

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

Letting go of 'in chargeness' worked again today.(how can it not work? as it is the nature of reality!) But every time I let go and the imagined catastrophe doesn't happen it helps to see it a little more clearly. Not knowing what is going to happen next - even what is going to come out of my mouth.

Letting go of 'in chargeness' works - great!

So .... was there ever any entity in charge? Who or what is it that lets go?

x
Perry

[Amara G]

Hiya

Just typed a post and server timed out.... so lost it! Annoying.
But helpful as it makes the point about seeing versus remembering.

So .... was there ever any entity in charge? Who or what is it that lets go?

No never was entity in charge just conditioned arising. This I see but also feels like it's impossible to fully comprehend as it turns everything upside down. Especially all those acts of will i'm so proud of. This needs sitting with.....

Is letting go possible? No. No one to let go. There is just what is seen or not and then falling either happens or it doesn't.

X
A

[perrym]

Hi Amara,

This I see but also feels like it's impossible to fully comprehend as it turns everything upside down.

... or perhaps .....turns everything the right way up?

x
Perry