requesting an available guide to help me in this process

[arjayde]

mar 9 / 1:55 hi ray. had some time before a busy evening, so a report on (de): now...plus a few minutes.(haha). walked down lane-way very slowly. stopped; looked inside.....pause, then usually one word labels appeared. leg, drip wind, moo,breath. then focus on re-setting the system. next; open eyes... slight pause, eyes focusing, turkey track, snow, branch. re-set... slow walk (with awareness), mud sound, breeze, turkey track. stop; re-set, close eyes, then...(awareness). performed this exercise to end of lane-way and some of the way back. noticed that the labeling was simple, as in one word, maybe two. i'll call this the first phase. the next phase the one word descriptions expanded to sometimes 2 or 3 words. at some point in the second phase the word "boring" seemed to attach itself to each awareness viewing. proceeding with the exercise, continued to where the yearlings (young cows) are penned.stood against fence, re-set ; awareness.... with the new stimuli, the "boring" disappeared. continued there a long while. experience seemed "more exciting with the movement of livestock. lets call that phase 3. continued to back yard. began to notice a very distinct and intense pressure with-in the "centre" of my chest. the awareness of that "centre" was always present before any other labels.phase 4, at about that time small sentences were being formed and by the time my outside wood-stove was filled,(a chore) the mind was on a full-out dialogue ; as per what could be "normal life". i'm noticing how the mind has nicely put this experience in 'phases" as well. also as i'm writing in "now "time, the chest center thing is very noticeable. ??? too much attention, did the mind/body create its own center?... "i" ? spent about 2-ish hours for this exercise. just got your e-mail. oh! isn"t this fun. i'll send this and do the other exercise and reading tonight. time permitting. blessings, cheers and all that good stuff.r

[arjayde]

good morning ray. would like to report back regarding further investigative "de".

Choose any object, a cup, a pen or whatever. Pick it up, look at it and notice the mind automatically labeling it. Also notice the values, memories, thoughts, feelings and so on associated with those labels. Now, continuing to look at the object, let the labels fall away, let them subside. If you notice more labels take them off one by one. Sit for a while with this object that is now without name or label and write back with what you notice.

there were guests at our home at the time this part of the "de".i wonder what they would think if they saw me staring intently at my one slipper?? oh well ... think i well un-label that. anyways; focus. didn't seem to have quite the same response as my first report with "de". when looking at the slipper, the label "slipper...dummy.. the mind knows every thing about slipper" one all conclusive label. taking away the labels seemed almost weird. the mind was like ;"wait a minute ..i don't unlabel stuff." also a note here... i'd like to verify what i was trying to "do" is what you were asking. to take away the labels, what i did was image that a little pair of fingers were picking up one label that had been identified and then dragged it over to the trash bin.this was done until there there were no more labels. this was performed with 3 different items.the dragging away seemed fake/ pretend. i guess at one time the slipper felt a little bit "slipper-less" perhaps for one millionth of of a nano second. over-all i wasn't really trilled with the second "de" attempt. then i read the article by "cosmik". nicely written. thank-you cosmik. some of the imformation on the pages kind-of made sense. of course, not all.then something interesting happened. i was sitting in my comfy meditation chair,alone. the words "why don't you try to un-label yourself".hummm! sore knee.. drag and drop. full tummy..drag and drop. rob was beginning to become a un-rob. felt like a game were-by rob was experiencing a deep meditative kind of nothing- ness.. words??? to articulate well with words would be such a gift. then i heard our guests getting ready for bed and knew that they would be coming through the area were i was "disappearing". had to abort the mission until later today when when solid people are gone and i can play again. i'll send this post . if i'm on the right track; great. if you can add some more "pointers"-oh pointy one ; that would be appreciated. thanks much ray. until later, take care. r

[ray]

Hey Rob,
That's exactly what was intended.
When the I or Rob label is removed is all of DE still active (observed thoughts, senses and a feeling of aliveness) ?

More later, I'm out for a walk.

Ray

[ray]

Hey Rob,
That's exactly what was intended.
When the I or Rob label is removed is all of DE still active (observed thoughts, senses and a feeling of aliveness) ?

More later, I'm out for a walk.

Ray

[arjayde]

hey ray. listening to some soft piano music right now. heart is a little raw. body is a little shakey. labels... yes. just a check-in.do i need to ask how you are?(wink, wink).

When the I or Rob label is removed is all of DE still active (observed thoughts, senses and a feeling of aliveness) ?

literal translation of question?.. hey dude are you there yet?. quick answer...no,but maybe the door is pretty close. ? guests just left. perhaps some rob articulation is needed. if only for rob.regarding chest sensation. upon investigation, it seems "i" needs a reference point.else no i can exist. the chest sure seems like a "my place" when i asked "well what's under this. the word pride can up.humility came up as the fulcrum word. Love is. got to go slow. heard the words, "look at the word pride". pride=pr+ i +de. hummm! look how the i is nestled right in the middle. take away the "i"..and pr+de. pre - "de" = direct experience. interesting.to answer the above quote/question more fully.at this moment there's fear. death- no. the fear is the stepping into surrender, acceptance, humility. summed up;stepping into love.is there more? certainly.. the voice box.(not now kato... focus) going for a walk. now-ness moments are more rare while sitting directly in front of computer "figuring-out" what keys to press.(at least for the experience labeled; rob) light moment...scotty says to captain kirk " i'm give- en- er- all she's got captain,the dilithium cystals are about to explode. she's get-en pretty shake-ee. blessings unto thee my brethren ray. later dude. r

[ray]

Hi Rob,
Thanks for focusing so well on the labeling exercise. The mind does a wonderful job of labeling objects and experiences and is useful in all sorts of ways, helping navigate the world and planning etc.
Stripping away the labels lets us see in a more direct and innocent way. Glad you had fun :-)

what i did was image that a little pair of fingers were picking up one label that had been identified and then dragged it over to the trash bin.this was done until there there were no more labels

That really makes me smile. I've heard it described as peeling of yellow post-it notes and throwing them away, but I like your imagery more.

Notice how the mind/the self wanted to take control again by categorizing (phase 1, phase 2 etc) and maybe trying to make it into a puzzle to be solved. rather than simply being an experiential exercise.
I don't want to rush you to the gate. There are plenty of more angles to explore, which can be games to be played.

.scotty says to captain kirk " i'm give- en- er- all she's got captain,the dilithium cystals are about to explode. she's get-en pretty shake-ee.

... continuing the Star Trek metaphor. Do we need to be traveling at Warp speed, or is the destination right here, right now? Warp drive is not needed, not even impulse power. Manoevering thrusters will do, and we can take a good cool look at the stars. Wow!
And what's that Scotty? We've been zooming along with the I-shields up! And not a Klingon in sight. That uses loads of energy and the shields just distort the view. Also they will deploy automatically if there is any real physical danger. So Rob, as you said elsewhere, just slow down. Actually there is no goal to reach and no rush to get there. After some more looking the I-shields can be lowered and you'll see there was no-one to get there either. But there's no rush. Enjoy the ride.

Close your eyes and point to "I". Where are you pointing?
I think your pressure in the centre of your chest (I trust you are NOT having a heart attack!!!), and feelings of fear, are tension and an emotional reaction to the work you are doing.
Please do the following for the pressure and any fearfulness. When you feel that feeling, welcome it. Let it come close and look at the feeling with acceptance. Look behind the feeling. See what is there. This should lessen and release the feeling. Take some time to do this and let me know how this goes.

When that has calmed down a bit try this game a couple of times.
Think of a number between 1 and 20
Did you know the number before you chose it? Can you spot the point where choosing happens ar see where the choice comes from.
You can try this with other things as you go about your day. Example: put 2 pens on the table and choose 1 of them.
On your walk turn left or right. Can you describe what influences choosing?

Have fun,
Ray

[arjayde]

hi ray.thanks once again for your guidance and insight. your star wars metaphor is spot on. (borrow your words) i must have missed that episode,but am looking at its wisdom now. also, i'm giving this process 100% honesty. even if that means the stuff i write is absolute bs or does'nt make any logical sense whatsoever. i'm not here to win any prize or impress anyone.how could i impress anyone anyhow? if ever you feel offended or wronged in any way, please know that that is not ever my intention. i feel a deep respect and gratitude for your assistance.thanks. onward. what the hell happened yesterday.( rob question). i awoke this morning, after some very crisp distinct dreams, but felt absolutely flat. what's flat? no place to put the air hose? the mind had no place to start labelling? this was not particularly a good "place". however, i had previously read your post and was pondering the advice "acceptance". even to "accept" that trying to figure-it-out doesn't (really) work.it's like being in a really complex labyrinth that you tried to figure your way out of, but could'nt. then just sat down and said "i am in acceptance of what-ever this is". acceptance! i greatly despise that word. like it implies failure, our a complete and utter waste of time. thank you ray.(that's not sarcasm) i think i'd like to send some time with that theme/word. may-be for today. i'll look at the mind labeling exercise a little latter. i can report something about the mind that was observed this morning while in bed. it seemed the mind didn't know what to label. kind-of like overload..? my wife was leaving the room and asked a question. it was like "a possible response" slid into the center of the mind. i'd like to call it " virgin response" (no sexual implication) it was like pure, without any emotional attachments. just there. and!!! rob didn't supply "it" ttfn. r

[arjayde]

hi ray. had some time to ponder and reflect.

Close your eyes and point to "I". Where are you pointing?

when the body is calm there doesn't seem to be a "spot". as for when the sensation was in the chest, it feels like "i" is there. this morning when i used the term "feeling flat", the observation is/was the collection of labels,ie ball, tree, home, etc. had all been challenged. and found to be lacking in truth. therefore, the mind was not knowing which labeling to start. during that time "i" was not noticeable.

I think your pressure in the cente of your chest (I trust you are NOT having a heart attack!!!), and feelings of fear, are tension and an emotional reaction to the work you are doing.
Please do the following for the pressure and any fearfulness. When you feel that feeling, welcome it. Let it come close and look at the feeling with acceptance. Look behind the feeling. See what is there. This should lessen and release the feeling. Take some time to do this and let me know how this goes.

some time was spent looking at acceptance.on the surface, i could say there is acceptance.for example, going to the dentist office.but upon deeper reflection there is/was a deep reluctance to accept because of something that has been hidden from my conscious mind, until now. until today. fear is also included.fear and inability to accept something that happened a long time ago that has been buried from conscious memory. incidentally, this explains the need to figure stuff out. summary; seem to have reconciled with fear/ acceptance. also have modified the "click/drag/and trash" to a more loving/gentle imagery.

Can you describe what influences choosing?

no, not really.just like i can't describe what influences word pictures, or song lyrics, or ideas that pop-up for the direction to proceed in fixing the lawnmower. hope that's ok for now. thanks. r

[ray]

Hi Rob,

I really appreciate your honesty and openness on this. It gives me great pointers on how to guide you. It's rather like a dance, with you guiding me to guide you!
There's another of those fun word coincidences there too...GUI-DANCE.
A GUI is a computer graphical user interface, like that one you are using, with a mouse as a "pointer". tee hee.

Thanks for your earlier post asking how I am. Life's still delivers its ups and downs, but it's all OK. Nothing special. But please note that my wife and I are going away on a canal boat holiday for a week from this Saturday. I'll have limited access to the internet, but I should still be able to check in with brief messages most days. Alternatively one of the other guides could work with you for the week I am away - I will keep in the loop. What would you prefer?

i'm giving this process 100% honesty. even if that means the stuff i write is absolute bs or does'nt make any logical sense whatsoever. i'm not here to win any prize or impress anyone.how could i impress anyone anyhow? if ever you feel offended or wronged in any way, please know that that is not ever my intention.

Great, but do not worry about offending me. Just give it me the way it is and if I've rattled your cage just shoot from the hip. There is no one to impress or upset.

i awoke this morning, after some very crisp distinct dreams, but felt absolutely flat. what's flat? no place to put the air hose? the mind had no place to start labelling? this was not particularly a good "place". however, i had previously read your post and was pondering the advice "acceptance". even to "accept" that trying to figure-it-out doesn't (really) work.it's like being in a really complex labyrinth that you tried to figure your way out of, but could'nt. then just sat down and said "i am in acceptance of what-ever this is".

Good work with acceptance. Just letting it be can be healing. Surrender is another one. It sounds like "giving up", but is it actually embracing what is, and being the space for that to be expressed?

my wife was leaving the room and asked a question. it was like "a possible response" slid into the center of the mind. i'd like to call it " virgin response" (no sexual implication) it was like pure, without any emotional attachments. just there. and!!! rob didn't supply "it"

Cool :-)

when the body is calm there doesn't seem to be a "spot". as for when the sensation was in the chest, it feels like "i" is there. this morning when i used the term "feeling flat", the observation is/was the collection of labels,ie ball, tree, home, etc. had all been challenged. and found to be lacking in truth. therefore, the mind was not knowing which labeling to start. during that time "i" was not noticeable.

Going well. Let me know if the feeling flat is an issue.

Please do the following for the pressure and any fearfulness. When you feel that feeling, welcome it. Let it come close and look at the feeling with acceptance. Look behind the feeling. See what is there. This should lessen and release the feeling. Take some time to do this and let me know how this goes.

some time was spent looking at acceptance.on the surface, i could say there is acceptance.for example, going to the dentist office.but upon deeper reflection there is/was a deep reluctance to accept because of something that has been hidden from my conscious mind, until now. until today. fear is also included.fear and inability to accept something that happened a long time ago that has been buried from conscious memory. incidentally, this explains the need to figure stuff out. summary; seem to have reconciled with fear/ acceptance. also have modified the "click/drag/and trash" to a more loving/gentle imagery.

Sounds like there is something from the past that wants to be examined. It is outside the scope of what we do at LU for me to work that through with you. But you can look at it. It is feelings arising in the present form situation(s) that happened in the past. Can you see that fear is a projection, a reflection of what is "in here"?

Today's exercise...Please look at observing thoughts. Memories and feelings are thoughts and they are thoughts linked to other thoughts and labels. Notice thoughts arising and falling away. Where do thoughts come from and go to? Tell me what you notice.

If there is something that you have a deep reluctance to accept, can you accept that that is the way that it is and let that be! Sit with it.
Can you change something in the past? Is it attachment to a notional self that enables the past to continue to cause suffering in the present?
I had a "something" that I had to work through on my journey through the gate. I had to let go of that before I could move on. It may be like that for you.
Whatever time you need. Let me know how you get on.

Love and blessings,
Ray

[arjayde]

good morning ray. lots to report from "yesterdays" de. hmm. doesn't that sound funny. (yesterdays de) actually, could say something about that right now before i respond to your post. when experience is being noticed in the now, and i'm thinking about "the story" of what is happening... so i can report back.... thinking effectively diminishes a direct knowing of the experience.(for me and my understanding of it today)

It's rather like a dance, with you guiding me to guide you!

exactly! yesterday, before your post, the de was a heightened sense of awareness about just that. that when a question is formed the answer is already there. in fact, the answer and the question are one. experience is.when a individual asks a question about something, anything; experience has already answered. we walk around in life looking for the answer to our question when in fact experience is lovingly screaming back unto us the answer we seek. "self referring holographic mirror". those words sound kind-of gimpy today. yesterday they were powerful.so... yesterday morning before your post, there was a knowing about what would be written and that you would be writing something about this.there was such excitement for me. as this is being put to paper (humm..screen) i'm getting a close-ness to the knowing that ray and rob are /..1+1=0. experience + experience = only experience. how could it not be otherwise ????? + ???? = 0 = everything. there is kind-of a moment happening here: now! (de). looking at the screen, watching the "flashy" line thing on the screen. sitting. looking. the mind would like to get-to-post. can both happen? de and writing at the same time. this is very interesting for me right now.because "minding" isn't "i"- less- ness. writing has much to do with 'minding", labeling hummm!???

going away on a canal boat holiday

that is most excellent ray. all that i can say is have fun, enjoy, relax. my preference is to stay the course with you on the process. lets just totally trust in the experience, including yours. if you have a chance to post me .. great. if not.. great; i'll practice de, or looking at sensations with-in the body, or what's behind impatience.or something real fun like posting directly onto experience without the computer.sounds like a neat experiment.are you up for it? ..just having fun here,although "i'm" sure it's possible.how do mothers feel their babies pain even from great distances??

if I've rattled your cage just shoot from the hip

just gratitude and appreciation.even if it's challenging.

Let me know if the feeling flat is an issue.

quick answer. all is good @ now. two days ago was experience of flat and life review and summation. yesterday was university course in understanding of flat. i could write about it later but right now it's a distraction. wow! it's so easy to have dangly carrots

Sounds like there is something from the past that wants to be examined

yesterday. was aware. mind wanted to write "about" aware. the mind expended so much energy around stories. noticed strong sensation with-in chest, but did'nt have time to look.(distractions) getting home after a busy 12 hours in town, the sensation seemed huge. then while looking at home, a huge "block" of fear released. like a pop. no content to observe. just a release of ?? emotion. it is all good within me at this point. my/the understanding is that clearing could/can happen. for now long ?? who cares. trust the experience, patience, surrender, acceptance, and of course de. always de.as i write this, the sensation is again noticed within the chest. going to take a little break. be back in a bit. (back again) chest sensation represents fear. rushing or being forced.( no, you are not forcing me ray nor is experience.) remembering the other day; "click and trash" .. it felt like the body was going to disappear. the more the sensations were removed ,less of the body was felt. that experience kind of stopped when awareness was at the neck and head. somehow seeing "i" represents disappearance of body....... also.. an understanding that when great trauma is felt/experienced the body clicks off. a survival mechanism. whats that called,, disassociation. so... seeing "i",kind-of represents great trauma. (all is ok ray. experience wanted me to add that for your now moment called "reading these words")?? all is now. could we go back to..."trust the experience, patience, surrender, acceptance, and of course de." once the "i" is exposed there is only trust, patience, surrender, acceptance... perhaps love. however, their could be emotional clearing... yes, and re-balancing. am i there yet? no the writing of these words are pointing to...not yet! it's like the friend or foe button on this LU web-site. participation with those buttons dosen't show if your liberated. it might help to point to where you are with-in the process.

f there is something that you have a deep reluctance to accept, can you accept that that is the way that it is and let that be

yes.

Can you change something in the past

no, only accept.

Is it attachment to a notional self that enables the past to continue to cause suffering in the present?

sure seems like that's the truth. shall i investigate that?

Whatever time you need. Let me know how you get on.

all is @ good for this moment. until later, love and blessings. r

[ray]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the update on what's being experienced.

have fun, enjoy, relax. my preference is to stay the course with you on the process. lets just totally trust in the experience, including yours. if you have a chance to post me .. great. if not.. great; i'll practice de, or looking at sensations with-in the body, or what's behind impatience.or something real fun like posting directly onto experience without the computer.sounds like a neat experiment.are you up for it? ..just having fun here,although "i'm" sure it's possible.how do mothers feel their babies pain even from great distances??

While I'm away I'll post occasionally, probably not every day and the posts will be shorter. That could be an interesting dynamic. I don't know about "posting onto experience", there's some speculative thoughts sneaking in there. No harm, but let's stick to what's here and now for this investigation!

...yesterday. was aware. mind wanted to write "about" aware. the mind expended so much energy around stories. noticed strong sensation with-in chest, but did'nt have time to look.(distractions) getting home after a busy 12 hours in town, the sensation seemed huge. then while looking at home, a huge "block" of fear released. like a pop. no content to observe. just a release of ?? emotion. it is all good within me at this point. my/the understanding is that clearing could/can happen. for now long ?? who cares. trust the experience, patience, surrender, acceptance, and of course de. always de.as i write this, the sensation is again noticed within the chest. going to take a little break. be back in a bit. (back again) chest sensation represents fear. rushing or being forced.( no, you are not forcing me ray nor is experience.) remembering the other day; "click and trash" .. it felt like the body was going to disappear. the more the sensations were removed ,less of the body was felt. that experience kind of stopped when awareness was at the neck and head. somehow seeing "i" represents disappearance of body.......

This process is different for everyone, but there is seeing and unfolding. It happens naturally.

ray wrote:Is it attachment to a notional self that enables the past to continue to cause suffering in the present?

sure seems like that's the truth. shall i investigate that?

Yes, take at look at how attachment to thoughts of the past and expectations for the future affect experience in the present. Look at how the story of the self gets attached to those thoughts.

Take it easy,
Ray

[arjayde]

greetings ray.

but let's stick to what's here and now for this investigation!

rein it in. sharper focus. good pointing. thanks ray.

It happens naturally.

yes. acceptance is somewhere between impatience and excitement.

Look at how the story of the self gets attached to those thoughts.

i seems to be created when experience wills a label closer or whats to push one away. then the experience called earth, solidifies the concept of "i" with the notion of "i-full-ness" which seems to be ever present. practicing succinctness. take care. r

[ray]

Hi Rob,
Lets say something is real if it is still there when you stop thinking about it. So think about the following,
1. A table.
2. A High School
3. Yogi Bear.

The table persists, whether you think about it or not.
A High School is a group of buildings, also a numerous processes and proceedures and also a lot of people who behave and react in various ways.
Yogi Bear is a fictional character in a story.

Describe the "self" in terms of the above.

--------------------------------------------------------

Now close your eyes. Holds your hands in front of you and imagine holding a large watermelon. Feel its, size, shape, weight, smell etc. Do this long enough to let it feels real in imagination.
Then open your eyes.
It seemed so real, but now you can see that nothing is there.

How do you see the self? Is it anything like the watermelon?

Have fun,
Ray

[arjayde]

hi ray

Describe the "self" in terms of the above

yogi bear.

Describe the "self" in terms of the above.

same as yogi bear. later. r

[ray]

Hi Rob,
Incredibly short reply . LOL

Yesterday you wrote,

remembering the other day; "click and trash" .. it felt like the body was going to disappear. the more the sensations were removed ,less of the body was felt. that experience kind of stopped when awareness was at the neck and head. somehow seeing "i" represents disappearance of body.....

Clearly the body does not disappear! But this feeling is interesting to work with. Is it more correct to say "This is my hand" or "this is a hand", "this is my leg" or "this is a leg" and so on. What's being looked at here is attachment to the idea of ownership.
Is that body yours, or is it a body.
The same with your senses.
Is this my hearing or is it hearing,
I see, or there is seeing,
I am tasting, or there is a taste,
I feel, or there is a sensation,
I experience, or there is experiencing.
Can anyone really own anything?

Report back with what you notice.

Warm regards,
Ray