The Gate

Well no there is no thing to speak of these experiences are just experienced in which respect awareness and experience occur together, but if I am not something then what is registering these experiences? Surely the awareness within which the experiences are experienced is therefore what I am. The space where the experience occurs. Previously therefore when thoughts have arisen in the space they have totally distracted or attracted me to them in turn leading to the network of thoughts/beliefs building into this character that I thought I was.....

My mind has gone very quiet after thinking these thoughts.

If it is ok for me to ask a question at this stage. there is no self behind the thought. Yet if "i" am not then why does it not feel like I am one with all else that is?

Well no there is no thing to speak of these experiences are just experienced in which respect awareness and experience occur together, but if I am not something then what is registering these experiences? Surely the awareness within which the experiences are experienced is therefore what I am.

If awareness and experiences are not separate, then how can you be awareness and not be experiences? Look into this :)

If it is ok for me to ask a question at this stage.

Yes, it is ok to ask a question at any stage. But I will probably answer with question :) Like this:

there is no self behind the thought. Yet if "i" am not then why does it not feel like I am one with all else that is?

Are you something that is one with ''all else'' that is?
Doesn't that imply that there are two separate entities: "you" and "all else'' there is?
Look into this.

Hi Matt,

This is also important:

If it is ok for me to ask a question at this stage. there is no self behind the thought. Yet if "i" am not then why does it not feel like I am one with all else that is?

We are not looking for a specific feeling or experience here. Feelings and experiences may come and go as a consequence of seeing. But if you focus on them you are missing the seeing itself. Let us just look into this reality that is already here now, ok? :)

Warm regards,

Nenad

Ok nenad thanks.

Since reading ur MSG last night I have felt a bit down and grumpy if I am honest. My defences have come up and I woke up in the night stressing about money and work etc which is not like me. When I look at this I feel I may be scared of relinquishing the belief that I ah e control over my life as my brain has tried to kick in in overdrive taking control of any worries I have. Is this part of the process and how do I get past it?

Is this part of the process and how do I get past it?

Let it be. Welcome everything that appears. Is any of that personal?

When I look at this I feel I may be scared of relinquishing the belief that I ah e control over my life

Nothing is going to be relinquished. It is just going to be seen for what it is - a belief.

as my brain has tried to kick in in overdrive taking control of any worries I have

Can your mind control anything? Does control exist in reality?

Walk slowly for a minute. Look what happens. Is there anyone controlling the walking or is walking just happening?

Walking just happens.

How are decisions made? If I have options open to me say choices on a
Menu that I can evaluate and then decide what i would like to eat that feels like I am making a choice.

With thanks
Matt

Hi Matt!

Walking just happens.

Yes :)

How are decisions made? If I have options open to me say choices on a
Menu that I can evaluate and then decide what i would like to eat that feels like I am making a choice.

Yes, it feels like you have a choice. That is ok. It is a feeling. But, in reality, is there a choice?
If you are not thinking thoughts, then what is choice?

My mind has gone very quiet after thinking these thoughts.

Is there mind that is thinking thoughts?

or

Do thoughts just appear one after the other without anyone or anything thinking them?

How is mind experienced in direct moment-to-moment experience?

Much Respect,
Nenad

Let me consider these questions and I will reply tomorrow . Best wishes

Ok. Thanks for maintaining the daily comunication. Best wishes.

OK so I have been considering your questions and this is what was found.

Q. Yes, it feels like you have a choice. That is ok. It is a feeling. But, in reality, is there a choice?
If you are not thinking thoughts, then what is choice?

A. If there are no thoughts then things just happen. I can see now that the thoughts arise from the action or experience. For instance I got to get a cup of tea and the thought arises I will have a cup of tea. I open the cupboard and see different types of tea and the thought comes which tea shall I choose? I select a chamomile tea bag and the thought comes, I will have a chamomile tea. No choices are made, but the thoughts like to take ownership of the actions/experiences that are happening.

Q. Is there mind that is thinking thoughts?

A. Thoughts arise out of experiences whether those experiences may be seeing, hearing, feeling etc. The experiences sometimes, but not always produce a thought. These thoughts then lead into emotions for instance if the phone rings and the thought comes "I am too busy to working to take the call", Stress/anger arises. Whereas if the phone rings and there are no thoughts the phone is just answered.

Q. Do thoughts just appear one after the other without anyone or anything thinking them?

A. The thoughts just appear one after the other. I cannot predict what the throughts will be, but I see that they arise out of some kind of experience although that experience might itself be a thought.

Q. How is mind experienced in direct moment-to-moment experience?

A. When I try to watch "my mind" it goes quiet and there is nothing. When thought arises the train of thought will continue until it is either interupted by another thought or it is dropped.

What I am still struggling with though is if a line of thinking begins for example " I am so busy at work I don't know how I will get everything done today" then the thought is dropped as it is just that a thought and it is only creating unpleasant emotions like stress who or what causes the thought to be dropped as before I became more aware I would get lost in thoughts whereas now through meditation practice etc I am constantly noticing thoughts for what they are and just letting them go. Who or what is observing the thoughts and dropping them. This still feels to me like a presence that exists behind the thoughts.

OK so I have been considering your questions and this is what was found.

Q. Yes, it feels like you have a choice. That is ok. It is a feeling. But, in reality, is there a choice?
If you are not thinking thoughts, then what is choice?

A. If there are no thoughts then things just happen. I can see now that the thoughts arise from the action or experience. For instance I got to get a cup of tea and the thought arises I will have a cup of tea. I open the cupboard and see different types of tea and the thought comes which tea shall I choose? I select a chamomile tea bag and the thought comes, I will have a chamomile tea. No choices are made, but the thoughts like to take ownership of the actions/experiences that are happening.

Q. Is there mind that is thinking thoughts?

A. Thoughts arise out of experiences whether those experiences may be seeing, hearing, feeling etc. The experiences sometimes, but not always produce a thought. These thoughts then lead into emotions for instance if the phone rings and the thought comes "I am too busy to working to take the call", Stress/anger arises. Whereas if the phone rings and there are no thoughts the phone is just answered.

Q. Do thoughts just appear one after the other without anyone or anything thinking them?

A. The thoughts just appear one after the other. I cannot predict what the throughts will be, but I see that they arise out of some kind of experience although that experience might itself be a thought.

Q. How is mind experienced in direct moment-to-moment experience?

A. When I try to watch "my mind" it goes quiet and there is nothing. When thought arises the train of thought will continue until it is either interupted by another thought or it is dropped.

Nice observations!

No choices are made, but the thoughts like to take ownership of the actions/experiences that are happening.

Exactly!

If there are no thoughts then things just happen.

Don't things just happen even when there are thoughts? Regardless of them
Check it in experience.

whereas now through meditation practice etc I am constantly noticing thoughts for what they are and just letting them go

Do you choose to meditate?
Or does it just happen?

When meditating next time check:

Do you choose to sit down and meditate?
How does meditation happen?

This still feels to me like a presence that exists behind the thoughts.

Close the eyes.
Point with the finger to this presence.
Open the eyes.
What is the finger pointing to?

Again let me consider these questions carefully and I will get back to you when i have found answers.

many thanks
matt

Good.Take the time to check it all in experience :)

Don't things just happen even when there are thoughts? Regardless of them
Check it in experience.

Yes things just happen, sometimes thought arises sometimes it does not.

whereas now through meditation practice etc I am constantly noticing thoughts for what they are and just letting them go

Do you choose to meditate?
Or does it just happen?

When meditating next time check:

Do you choose to sit down and meditate?
How does meditation happen?

Informal meditation happens all the time when thoughts cease and attempts at manipulation through thought cease and a lightness comes over the body. I will observe the next time formal meditation occurs and observe and answer the same question.

This still feels to me like a presence that exists behind the thoughts.

Close the eyes.
Point with the finger to this presence.
Open the eyes.
What is the finger pointing to?

I close my eyes. There is sensations in different parts of the body, but no presence therefore there is nothing at which to point.

A short while ago before you replied a sudden but very noticeable lightness came over me making me smile and there was a feeling of a weight being lifted. There was not really any thought surrounding the experience just sensations. is this relevant?

Yes things just happen, sometimes thought arises sometimes it does not.

Yes.

Informal meditation happens all the time when thoughts cease and attempts at manipulation through thought cease and a lightness comes over the body.

Yes, it just happens.
Describe this attempts at manipulation further.
Look during the day, especially in stressful situations:
In direct experience, can there be found anyone/anything trying to manipulate?

I will observe the next time formal meditation occurs and observe and answer the same question.

When observation happens, check:
In direct experience, can there be found anyone observing?

A short while ago before you replied a sudden but very noticeable lightness came over me making me smile and there was a feeling of a weight being lifted. There was not really any thought surrounding the experience just sensations. is this relevant?

Relevant or not, it is nice experience :)
Of course, this inquiry is not about any experience.