The Gate

ps i don't view the process to be a thing in itself of which other things happen to!

Hi Jaya,

It a label I lazily used to describe a changing process which is happening to changing process- ie a spiritual life happening to Jaya.

There is nothing happening to Jaya. Only new thoughts arise, thoughts strung together become concepts, then disappearing as life goes on living itself. Experiences of the senses happening, smelling, seeing, hearing, touching, eating, this is what is happening. Energy, transforming, consuming, shaping and then dissolution. Then transforming again. Is there a separate spirit called Jaya or is this another more subtle self? Or is it only mind grasping, ego trying to maintain control of the maya or illusion? Love, Metta

HI Metta,

There is nothing happening to Jaya. Only new thoughts arise, thoughts strung together become concepts, then disappearing as life goes on living itself. Experiences of the senses happening, smelling, seeing, hearing, touching, eating, this is what is happening. Energy, transforming, consuming, shaping and then dissolution. Then transforming again.

yes! this is it put succinctly- this describes the process that i call me.

Is there a separate spirit called Jaya or is this another more subtle self? Or is it only mind grasping, ego trying to maintain control of the maya or illusion?

no, the suble sensations that come and go only imply continuity, a linking up. It is so subtle that it feels that there is nothing to be investigated and so to allows the assumption that there is no gross self maybe a subtle one. i experience these sensations as very fine and very impermanent. it is the reassuring answer to the question- there must be something!? But such answer cannot found. if there was a subtle self it would stand up to repeated and prolonged investigation but it doesn't. Even the how mind grasps changes between grasping, it is not one continous event, led by a continous thing. wanting reassurance, getting it , grapsing, getting it- all separate mind moments not linked and not controllable.
kind thoughts
Jaya

Hi Jaya,

So there is awareness there is no person Jaya, just experiencing Now. There is existence . What exists? So a few more questions, are there others? If someone were to say, " Jaya!!, you are making me angry!!" , is this true? Love, Metta

HI Metta,

There is existence . What exists?

awareness and mental events arise together and disappear. followed by another and another. I don't see a thing that exists or a being that exists. theres is existing but not a thing call existence as a guaranteed fixed event

If someone were to say, " Jaya!!, you are making me angry!!" , is this true?

hmm. This seeing that there is not me not self is really tested when things like this happen. when events happen as above, the event that made someone react initially has passed, the moment and incident has passed. there are then new mind moments that come from that . Such situations really test is there a fixed me,in this case the emotions, reactions,feelings, speech all arise and pass like they always have done. In this case more quickly and with more energy. As i have said previously mental moments that pass quickly can give the illusion of me like a sparkler gives the illusion of a ring if moved quickly in the air. So no "I" cannot not "make" you angry - it is also the seeing that they are not themselves, not fixed also a changing process.
kind thoughts
Jaya

Hi Jaya,

Nothing arises together there is only awareness. There is no separation between thoughts and awareness. Yes, there is existence , it is not a separate thing. Good.

There is no I to make angry, this is only an illusion. No one can make you angry as there is no one to anger. This is correct. good. Though the illusion as was pointed out is a good one.

Are there others? Other I's ? If there is no self, can there be other self's?

With Regards, Metta

HI Metta,
forgive me, you asked this question in your last post and i missed it

Are there others? Other I's ? If there is no self, can there be other self's?

yes there are others but not other fixed "i" s and no other self's. if there was such a thing then there must a self here in me which there isn't. To realise there is no "I" and thus realise there is no "you" follows. again on saying this, the beliefs and thoughts and memories of others being fixed, static and knowable are again impermanent sensations. When i write this there is a gladness that occurs and then a sadness, - glad that others like me are not fixed and thus this opens the way for wonder and sad as i become aware that the arising thoughts, pictures of others are just that, which then fade replaced by more pictures images thoughts. hope that makes sense.

ps thank you for clarifying nothing arises together there is only awareness. on reflection i see this to be true
kind thoughts
Jaya

Namaste Jaya,

if there was such a thing then there must a self here in me which there isn't. To realise there is no "I" and thus realise there is no "you" follows. again on saying this, the beliefs and thoughts and memories of others being fixed, static and knowable are again impermanent sensations. When i write this there is a gladness that occurs and then a sadness, - glad that

I totally get that feeling of joy and then sadness that there is only One and nothing is permanent. Is there anything else that needs to be discussed, I think there is understanding and it is possible that you are ready for the final questions.


Love, metta

HI Metta,
thanks for your kind guidance. i re read the ongoing conversation between u sand believe i am ready for the final questions. I have to say "are there others question" has really done something i didnt expect it would. It was admitting that there is no self "in here" so to speak nor none "out there" in others.

Namaste
Jaya

Hi Jaya,

There is no self, but something does exist, doesn't it. Okay here are the questions, take your time with them.

I will check back tomorrow if you are finished. There is an aftercare group where you may continue with exploring.

Kind Thoughts,

Metta

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

HI Metta,

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no there isn't. The search could go on indefinitely. no there was never a "me" to be found or to find

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

the illusion of self is that must something or someone who thinks feels experiences etc. ON investigation there are thoughts, feeling experiences which arise and pass away. When these experiences happen thick and fast they give the illusion of there being a separate self. it starts - well in my experience with growing up. i needed a name to identify this changing body to make things less complicated in the world. Likewise i was brought with labelsto describe objects and situations . In both cases reliance on the labels has been unreliable as things do not stay the same or last. The illusion of the separate self is east to maintain as i never investigated my experience of phenomena directly. Logic, beliefs and intellect al support the idea that there must be a me, i. However when this is directly investigated this is seen not to to be the case. even in my case when the self was seen through both in sitting meditation and walking about after realizing this, the intellectual views remained and so convinced. to see through the illusion honest direct experience of what is actually happening is required. With an mind that is not investigated memories, thoughts.images all strung together give the illusion that this is me, mine. But this events arise and pass and cannot be possessed. once gone there are gone.

How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

it doesnt' feel weird at all. there are thoughts images, event that all arise then pass. What changes that is that these things are not clung to and called me. note even " clinging to" is an impermanent event. emotions, events all come go but are not seen as the end in itself. there is awarness that arises- it is easy to interpret this as a nihilistic view but this is not the case -awareness arises but it has no edge. it is not as i am saying nothing arises there is nothing. that is daft. so how it feels to see this changes as well.
more a bit later
with love

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it

I would say look at your experience openly without thinking , without books what is really seen. Are memories, thoughts, words, ideas emanating from somewhere. In awareness thoughts etc happen by themselves are not controlled by a thing inside. My description would read more like an try and see in your own experience exercise than a description of what i have experienced. otherwise i think it would sound like all the other self help, buddhist books- just a load of excited clever words which make me sound good and lead the reader nowhere.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

I think the seeing no self was gradual. I had done a lot of vipassana practice for the last three years which had and continues to change my perception of what daily life is. I had never described in such a structured way and having this thread has brought out obvious parts of my experience of life now. I see things occur and look carefully as they fall and pass away replaced by more experience. it is more a direct experience now rather than a intellectual idea that this happens. This is still soaking in so to speak and is not complete. i appreciate i may have been pushed over but now it seems there still more appreciate and investigate with a sense of wonder.
i hope this answers the questions Metta- i don't wish to write any more from now unless you want further clarification on anything
with kind thoughts
Jaya

Thank You Jaya, I will submit your answers and will get back to you. Once in awhile a guide may have a further question. Peace, Brother.

Congratulations Jaya,

I will be putting you on the confirmation list and you will be able to guide if you wish. Your name will be changed to blue color. Someone will contact you about aftercare group. I would like your name and FB link to put with confirmation unless you don't wish that. Also, you may have my FB link if you wish for any further comments or questions for me you might have. Let me know. Respectfully and Namaste, Metta <3

Hi Jaya,

That is very kind of you and I am happy to keep in touch. Here is my link on FB.

https://www.facebook.com/Metta.Del Send me a friend request and I will accept. As soon as I list you for confirmation someone should contact you about the aftercare group. Blessings and Light, Metta777