looking to get this done

[Ingen]

There isn't actually any decision making process to bring forth the thoughts or emotions

"Yes, I can see this when I look. It is yet to be a permanent experience, though. I have been turning my mind to this concept (that everything is happening on it's own without a decision maker) as often as I can and a bit of space seems to have opened. There seems to be more space in the head/chest region, sensations feel a bit less solid than before, if that makes sense.

Sometimes there is sensation of space, sometimes there is pressure. Both appear and disappear, without a you being involved in this process. Don't worry about achieving a permanent experience. Relax and watch the process, without trying to change it.

The primary sense of me seems to be 'the watcher' or 'awareness'.

There is no awareness, only "awareness of [insert whatever]". There is no watcher – there is only watching, while it happens. Don't believe me, look for yourself.

Thoughts don't seem to be the primary sense of 'me', although they do support and increase it, through generating more bodily sensations. A sense of me seems to be increased by a more dense energetic feeling in the body.

Bodily sensations are real. A sense of "me" – of this body, of preferences, is real. Habits are real. They change over time. They get influenced from outside.

The phrase 'Me going through fear' is as a common use of language that is ingrained through many years of habit.

The assumed self has much to do with language. "I" is a story told by your parents and by everybody else. And you and everybody else believe in it.

Does the story of you refer to something real?

[thewanderer]

Sometimes there is sensation of space, sometimes there is pressure. Both appear and disappear, without a you being involved in this process. Don't worry about achieving a permanent experience. Relax and watch the process, without trying to change it.

I think I have been too intense with my looking at times, expecting a shift to happen. Probably comes from my background in Vipassana where not a second should be wasted in order to attain stream entry. To combat this, I if I find myself getting too intense/expectant I take a few deep breaths and allow an open receptive feeling. Then go back to looking. It's working quite well.

There is no awareness, only "awareness of [insert whatever]". There is no watcher – there is only watching, while it happens. Don't believe me, look for yourself.

Okay, I hadn't thought of it like that. This is definitely my sticking point, 'the watcher' feels very real. I've started to ask the question "who is watching"?

The assumed self has much to do with language.

This is very useful. Everytime I catch myself referring to 'me', I now correct myself. So 'I felt tense' now becomes 'there was tension'. I'm starting to notice that using language that refers to 'I' actually supports the sense of self.

Does the story of you refer to something real?

From other people's point of view, I will have certain attributes that will come to mind when they think of 'me'. E.g. 'he' is kind, he is 'grumpy' etc etc. This will vary from person to person. So a person that I have done a good deed for would see me as a nice person, whereas someone that I have wronged will see me as a nasty person. So there is all these different view points about who I am, but each of them only point to a part of me. And even the same person will see me differently at different points in their life and depending on what mood they are in.
From my own point of view, I have an identification with my past, how I grew up, whow I did in school, what career path I took. As well as how my personality has changed over the years. Looking back to when I was a child, I cannot say that is the same person as 'me' now. I guess the same could be said for me yesterday, it is a totally different person to 'me' today.

[thewanderer]

Right after I submitted that last post, I felt a sadness come over me. It was almost grief-like. And the cause was tha paragraph I wrote about the 'story of me'. It was like I'd given a very good case as to why 'I' don't exist and my 'self' has been shaken up by it. It feels like my 'identity' has taken a real beating.

[Ingen]

if I find myself getting too intense/expectant

It could be very useful to state your expectations. List them all, so you get them out of the system. We'll take a look at them later.

I've started to ask the question "who is watching"

"who" implies there is someone. Look if there is a watching entity when [insert whatever] is coming into focus. Is there someone "doing" perception?

Everytime I catch myself referring to 'me', I now correct myself. So 'I felt tense' now becomes 'there was tension'.

You are on the right track, but there is no need for changing your semantic habits. Just notice them. Notice how tension appears, and how the label for it appears afterwards.

Right after I submitted that last post, I felt a sadness come over me. It was almost grief-like. And the cause was tha paragraph I wrote about the 'story of me'. It was like I'd given a very good case as to why 'I' don't exist and my 'self' has been shaken up by it. It feels like my 'identity' has taken a real beating

yes, you did a good job with that! Let the grief be there and watch it. There is not really something to grief about, though. This thing about " your ego has to die" is all wrong. There is no ego to start with, it is all a story. Seeing this is a relief.

You are doing great! (Is there somebody who can do anything?)

[thewanderer]

It could be very useful to state your expectations. List them all, so you get them out of the system.

My expectations at the start were:
1. A major shift in perception
2. That some hard work will need to be put in before the shift will happen.
3. The shift will have a build up to it.
4. After the shift, suffering will have reduced and negative emotions will have less hold over me.

I've changed my mind about number 3, due to my experience of writing 'the story of me'. It feels as if something has fallen away after that. The identity is still intact but there has been a slight shift in perception. This experience was very sudden, happened without a build up and happened when I was least expecting it.

"who" implies there is someone. Look if there is a watching entity when [insert whatever] is coming into focus. Is there someone "doing" perception?

Yes, when I ask 'who is watching' I can't find anyone.

You are on the right track, but there is no need for changing your semantic habits. Just notice them. Notice how tension appears, and how the label for it appears afterwards.

Okay.

There is no ego to start with, it is all a story. Seeing this is a relief.

Yes, I don't feel sadness anymore, in fact, I feel a bit lighter.

I'm thinking about how to progress from here and am going to focus on the following things:
- Whenever there is a sense of the watcher, remind myself that there's just watching.
- Notice that all sensations, emotions and thoughts are just there, just happening by themselves.
- Look at the identity. Am I the same person I was yesterday, or an hour ago, or a minute ago, or a second ago?

[Ingen]

It feels as if something has fallen away after that. The identity is still intact but there has been a slight shift in perception. This experience was very sudden, happened without a build up and happened when I was least expecting it.

Interesting :) :) :)

I'm thinking about how to progress from here and am going to focus on the following things:
- Whenever there is a sense of the watcher, remind myself that there's just watching.

What happens to the imaginary watcher when you don't remind yourself?

- Notice that all sensations, emotions and thoughts are just there, just happening by themselves.

yes.

- Look at the identity. Am I the same person I was yesterday, or an hour ago, or a minute ago, or a second ago?

Look IF you can find a person now, or yesterday, which is more than a label, a story. Close your eyes (or not) and contemplate your self in your direct, first person, immediate experience: is there a something defining a you? A name, or several, might have changed over time? A passport number? How many toes do you have? Where is the boundary to the rest of life? Is there a you deciding which thoughts to let in (in where?).

[Ingen]

Hi wanderer, I just wanted to let you know that i am traveling the next 2 days and don't know when I am going to have internet access. I'll try to check in here when I can.

[thewanderer]

Ok no worries Ingen, thanks for letting me know. My schedule has picked up a little bit as well. I'll keep replying here anyway as sometimes things sink in better when I write them down.

What happens to the imaginary watcher when you don't remind yourself?

Woah, this is a great pointer. When I don't remind myself, the watcher isn't there! The only time the watcher isn't there is when there are thoughts occurring. So, there seems to be two modes of experience - The Watcher and Thoughts. The watcher feels like 'me'. Thoughts don't feel like 'me' but they feel like 'mine', like they are an expression of me that has been produced by 'me'. I guess there is an assumption that the watcher has produced the thought.

is there a something defining a you? A name, or several, might have changed over time? A passport number? How many toes do you have?

I looked at many things but none of them persisted over time. My hair - changes over time, my opinions - change over time, my mood - changes over time. From first person experience, there's just a bunch of sensations (i.e. an awareness of the sensations).

Is there a you deciding which thoughts to let in (in where?).

No they just appear of their own accord, but there's seems to be an identification with them that happens after the fact. The thoughts tend to cause an emotional repsonse of some sort and this further supports the sense that the thought was 'mine'.

[Ingen]

 I found some internet!

The watcher feels like 'me'. Thoughts don't feel like 'me' but they feel like 'mine', like they are an expression of me that has been produced by 'me'.

That is the illusion we are trying to see through. Are they all originally yours? Did't they come from outside? Is there a boundary?

I guess there is an assumption that the watcher has produced the thought.

You are guessing right. An assumption. 

What is the  (fictional)  watcher doing exactly? Don't things appear completely without help of a "watcher"?

The much-used metaphor of awareness being like a screen on which things appear is misleading. There are ONLY things (perceptions, thoughts, whatever), appearing. No screen. No watcher. Samsara is Nirvana. Yes, it is dizzying...

Have we talked about the fiction of free will? Trace your actions and decisions back to the outside impulses that triggered them. have you ever done anything because YOU decided to? Take in account your ( your?) genes, your upbringing, the wheather, all.

[thewanderer]

That is the illusion we are trying to see through. Are they all originally yours? Did't they come from outside? Is there a boundary?

They seem to be like alien invaders that come in and take over my mind! I find it difficult to see a thought come into being, it only seems to be half way through or after the fact that there is an awareness of the thought.

What is the (fictional) watcher doing exactly? Don't things appear completely without help of a "watcher"?

Yes, I can see that the watcher is separate from the thoughts. It's a backwards rationalisation that the watcher produced the thought.

The much-used metaphor of awareness being like a screen on which things appear is misleading. There are ONLY things (perceptions, thoughts, whatever), appearing. No screen. No watcher.[/qoute]
Yes, I have heard this through my vipassana practice - e.g. "there is only sensations".

Samsara is Nirvana.

Nice! Heaven is here on earth of only we can learn to see it (I'm trying!)

Have we talked about the fiction of free will? Trace your actions and decisions back to the outside impulses that triggered them. have you ever done anything because YOU decided to? Take in account your ( your?) genes, your upbringing, the wheather, all.

I've been trying to think of a time when I employed free will. I remember there being a crossroads in my life - 'Go back to Uni' or 'Continue doing what I was doing'. This was a decision that I thought long and hard about, which could be considered as me employing free will. But what caused me to plump for the decision I made? It was definitely influenced by outside factors. The prospect of earning more money etc. In fact, now I think about it, there were a lot of outside influences that caused the idea of going back to Uni. I.e. not much prospects in my current job, the thought that I could be enjoying another job more etc. So, in reality, it seems that it was a chain reaction of events, external factors causing thoguhts to arise.

On a more mundane level - do I choose to go take a drink. I would have to say no, either I get thirsty and this causes thoughts and emotions to arise that make me want to go get a drink. I could resist the impulse but again, that would be a thought that caused me to do this.

Looking back, so much of my decisions in life have been driven by fear. Fear of consequences, fear of what people think, fear of letting people down, fear of not being a 'good' person. The list goes on and on. Has it serveed me well? Yes, I've done ok, but I don't think I could call call it free will. One of the things I hope I can do one day is live life and make decision without fear.

[Ingen]

One of the things I hope I can do one day is live life and make decision without fear

.
Life is living itself. Nothing can be different than it is. You are not going to make the right ore wrong decisions, because they will always be caused by something. There is no you to decide anything. There is just this incredible intricate web of impulses. Can you see that?

[thewanderer]

Life is living itself. Nothing can be different than it is. You are not going to make the right ore wrong decisions, because they will always be caused by something. There is no you to decide anything. There is just this incredible intricate web of impulses. Can you see that?

Two things came up while looking into this:

1. I was looking at how life is living itself, how all of my actions were taken due to outside impulses and something hit me - "I'm not actually in control of my life"!!! This was a scary thought! The instant response that arose was "but I WANT to be in control of my life"!!!

2. This one is more philosophical, so we can set it aside if you think it's a distraction or not useful. I got to thinking about blame. If we are not in control of our life, then how can anyone truly be blamed for anything? It doesn't sit well with me. Rapists, murderers etc - are their actions not their fault!? I can see how someone's environment and upbringing (which aren't chosen) will make them more inclined to do wrong. But does that excuse the wrong doing? Hmmm.

[Ingen]

I was looking at how life is living itself, how all of my actions were taken due to outside impulses and something hit me - "I'm not actually in control of my life"!!! This was a scary thought! The instant response that arose was "but I WANT to be in control of my life"!!!

There was a time and place where people had certain rituals every day for making the sun rise again. They thought they had control over the sun's behavior. And to them it was so obvious: their rituals did work after all!

Drop this clinging to a control you never had.

You have already seen it all. I quote:

(...), due to my experience of writing 'the story of me'. It feels as if something has fallen away after that. The identity is still intact but there has been a slight shift in perception. This experience was very sudden, happened without a build up and happened when I was least expecting it.

Thoughts seem to be like alien invaders that come in and take over my mind ( note: they are your mind)

From first person experience, there's just a bunch of sensations

Thoughts just appear of their own accord, but there's seems to be an identification with them that happens after the fact. The thoughts tend to cause an emotional repsonse of some sort and this further supports the sense that the thought was 'mine'.

 
You are doing great. Take your findings serious, and don't try to work on something which doesnt require work. There is no special state of egolessnes. It is already true. 
Identification is a habit which doesnt stop, at least not immediately. but if you see it as that, (and not as a substantial self), it is recognized as just another thought pattern. A (deeply ingrained) belief among many others.

Consider it might be true what I am saying. How does it feel to not exist?

[thewanderer]

Consider it might be true what I am saying.

I guess I have been doubting that the recent shift in perception was 'it' because I still have some self identification. I think part of my expectations were that after the shift, seeing 'no-self' would be a permanent state of mind. The change of perception from my recent shift feels more prominent sometimes and less so at other times. So, I guess I'm wondering if there will be another shift that will make 'no-self' be seen permanently?

How does it feel to not exist?

My ongoing experience is definitely different to what it was this time a week ago ...

The first thing I noticed (possibly due to the cause of the shift), is that I have much less identification with all the "me's" from the past. Thinking back to my childhood, that person doesn't feel like 'me', it just seems like life doing it's own thing. And the distance into the past doesn't seem to matter either, the 'me' from 5 minutes ago also just feels like a bunch of sensations doing their own thing. There is the overall feeling that I have been pulled more into NOW.

I had an argument with my other half and it was really interesting because I still got angry during the argument. But after it, I didn't keep going over and over it in my head as I usually would, it was much easier to let it drop. Whilst I was reflecting on it, there was less identification with 'my' point of view and there wasn't so much inclination to apportion blame.

I've also noticed that there's less identification with my name. When I think of myself as 'John' it just doesn't seem right, like it's not a true representation of me. It's just a label. When I say my name and try to think of it as 'me', it won't stick, it just slides right off.

It's so much easier to see cause and effect in action now. When thoughts arise, I can easily see the triggers that have caused them to arise. Thoughts also don't cling as much, they feel less sticky. In the past an unpleasant thought could get in my head and I would keep turning it over and over, thought feeds emotion, emotion feeds thought, viscious circle that just keeps going around. That hasn't happened since the shift because I can see the mechanism, I can see what causes thoughts to arise. It's really, really fun and interesting to see life in this way!

Another thing I have noticed is that my spiritual quest doesn't seem like so much of a big deal anymore. Previously there was a massive sense of urgency and a lot of my sense of self-worth invested in being a good and diligent meditator, beating myself up for missing a days sit, worrying about the fact that I am unable to go on retreats and stressing about whether I would ever hit stream entry. I feel that I can relax now.

[Ingen]

I guess I have been doubting that the recent shift in perception was 'it' because I still have some self identification.

Is there someone who "has" self identification? Or is the  thought pattern "self-identification" happening?

The change of perception from my recent shift feels more prominent sometimes and less so at other times--- 

How is it exactly when the shift feels less prominent?

You know where the bathroom in your house is located, right? You just know it. But this knowing is not always prominent. It feels more prominent sometimes, and less so at other times. But is it gone when it is not "there"? Do you have to get into a state of permanent knowingness about the bathroom location? ;)

...worrying about the fact that I am unable to go on retreats and stressing about whether I would ever hit stream entry.

What does "I hit stream entry" mean?

I feel that I can relax now.

I think so, too! 
Is there a you in any shape or form?