I would like a guide please

[mister]

Yeah I've stopped being the pillow. I never really believed I was the pillow. It was more like I was looking at what it would be like to believe that.

[mark_tywharton]

So in a sense, you gave up being the pillow because -

obviously you aren't really the pillow, because you know you are you right?

and that's the pretence

it is where the ghost is

the whole thing

like, you would have had to have projected the idea of "I am in the pillow" onto the pillow?

[mister]

obviously you aren't really the pillow, because you know you are you right?

Well I'm hoping to get clear about that here. If it can be arbitrarily projected onto a pillow then it can be arbitrarily projected onto this body.

you would have had to have projected the idea of "I am in the pillow" onto the pillow?

Yes. The idea was projected onto the pillow. When the idea stopped, I was no longer the pillow. But even when the idea was projected it wasn't really believed. So the idea being projected onto my chest or forehead is the same thing but more believed? The thing is, it's really obvious that it is arbitrarily projected onto my chest and forehead. It can be projected onto anything.

[mark_tywharton]

Excellent.

You can start to see it as a function of imagination right?

Look at projected for a second as well.

Was there something projecting the idea "I am the pillow" onto the pillow?

In the case of the one in your chest and forehead, is a sense of it there because an awareness of that area gets noticed and focused upon. Is it just a habit?

Is there a projector behind that feeling, or is it just a feeling?

Humans (and some other animals) can think about images of things that have happened, or haven't happened yet.

It's a useful tool because it helps to plan engagements.

It is easy to see when you plan to meet a friend somewhere that the image of your friend you bring to mind in the scenario used to imagine the event is not real right?

But you use the same tool to imagine your role in this meeting.

And then you forget that this thing you create is not a thing at all, has no reality to it, yet you drag it into every scenario, bounce ideas off it "that girl I met last night was lovely, how do I feel about her" and reference all of experience through this thing that actually doesn't exist.

You are right on top of it, right now, it is being revealed to you.

If it is a real thing, then you would be able to find it.

So let's ask a direct question, is there a separate I to be found here in this place?

And really look, really be with whatever comes up for you.

Experience it out, let it do its thing and see if there are any associated memories.

There may be some powerful feelings associated with this I.

Examine and discuss.

Any concerns?

Cheers

Mark

[mister]

You can start to see it as a function of imagination right?

Yes. What the word I refers to is the thing that has this experience. Then parts of the experience are said to be this thing or are believed to contain this thing. This happens in imagination.

Look at projected for a second as well. Was there something projecting the idea "I am the pillow" onto the pillow?

No. The idea happened as part of following your directions. That thought like all the others appears out of nowhere.

In the case of the one in your chest and forehead, is a sense of it there because an awareness of that area gets noticed and focused upon. Is it just a habit?

The awareness of that area doesn't get noticed or focused upon. In fact I can't find any awareness at all. The areas get noticed and focused upon. Saying the word “me” emphasizes those areas slightly, like the volume of the sensation gets turned up a little and becomes a little more focused on. It's habitual.

Is there a projector behind that feeling, or is it just a feeling?

It's just a feeling. It happens like thought – appears out of nowhere.

Humans (and some other animals) can think about images of things that have happened, or haven't happened yet. It's a useful tool because it helps to plan engagements. It is easy to see when you plan to meet a friend somewhere that the image of your friend you bring to mind in the scenario used to imagine the event is not real right?

Yes. He's just in imagination.

But you use the same tool to imagine your role in this meeting. And then you forget that this thing you create is not a thing at all, has no reality to it, yet you drag it into every scenario, bounce ideas off it "that girl I met last night was lovely, how do I feel about her" and reference all of experience through this thing that actually doesn't exist.

In this scenario of meeting a friend, the thing meeting the friend would be this body. The body is real. The feelings that happen in it when it meets a girl are real. The memories of those feelings aren't. Neither is the girl and the body in memory. Or the imaginary future scenario. What gets put on the body in those scenarios is that the thing that is having the experience is in the body or part of it. All experience gets referenced to that thing.

You are right on top of it, right now, it is being revealed to you. If it is a real thing, then you would be able to find it. So let's ask a direct question, is there a separate I to be found here in this place?

No.

And really look, really be with whatever comes up for you. Experience it out, let it do its thing and see if there are any associated memories. There may be some powerful feelings associated with this I. Examine and discuss.

I'll ask myself “is there a separate me in this place?” throughout the day.

Any concerns?

Would you tell me if there is some misunderstanding with my answer in the bit about meeting a friend?

Thanks Mark. Oh and my name is Tom by the way.

[mark_tywharton]

You can start to see it as a function of imagination right?

Yes. What the word I refers to is the thing that has this experience. Then parts of the experience are said to be this thing or are believed to contain this thing. This happens in imagination.

Go back over this again please.

Is there a thing having the experience?

The misconception is that because there is an experience there must be a thing having it.

In the experience right now, the eyes are seeing, the ears are hearing, there are sensations from various different systems, all unique experiences - there are thoughts - biochemical exchanges - electrical exchanges (muscles moving) - magnetic exchanges of energy between the objects of the physical body and what it appears to be separate from.

Agree?

So in that set of experiences, is there a single entity, an I, having the experience?

The information is stitched together.

But does it make a THING of is the THING imagined?

Can you find the THING?

[mark_tywharton]

In the part about meeting a friend, notice you picture the scenario - play out a visualisation before you actually do it - probably picture the train you will ride - picture some of the features of the place you will meet etc - your friend's face?

In the scenario you place yourself, but as your view of the world is from the eyes looking out and at best you see your hands and the tip of your nose, the you in the scenario of meeting a friend gets pictured as an invisible space.

When you see the friend in the flesh so to speak, you drop the imagination of the friend and interact with the physical form of that person right? It would be weird to communicate with your visualised representation of them (you might as well stay home).

However when you communicate with yourself, you will probably find that you don't drop the imagination of you, you still try and interact with yourself based on your invisible visualisation of you. The false I.

As a thought experiment think it through and see if you can see how you represent yourself in visualised scenarios.

Then notice wether you drop the representation out here in the world.

And then if what represents you, for you, is still present and life is referenced though it, is it real?

I know it sounds counter intuitive, but this is about identifying what you think of as "I" and then seeing if it is real.

Hi Tom, pleased to meet you :)

[mister]

In the experience right now, the eyes are seeing, the ears are hearing, there are sensations from various different systems, all unique experiences - there are thoughts - biochemical exchanges - electrical exchanges (muscles moving) - magnetic exchanges of energy between the objects of the physical body and what it appears to be separate from.
Agree?

Yes. The eyes seeing and the ears hearing aren't actually in experience. There are sights and sounds and sensations and thoughts.

So in that set of experiences, is there a single entity, an I, having the experience?

No. There is just the experience with sights and sounds etc.

The information is stitched together. But does it make a THING or is the THING imagined? Can you find the THING?

Does the sights and sounds make a thing? There is an image of the body in direct experience with arms and legs and a little bit of torso. It has no face. But the body is experienced. It's not the thing that experiences. Every single thing that can be focused on will be an experience. The notion that this body is hearing and seeing and feeling the sights, sounds, sensations, or thoughts is imaginary. i can't find the thing that is having the experience.

I'll look more closely at the friend scenario.

[mark_tywharton]

So in that set of experiences, is there a single entity, an I, having the experience?

No. There is just the experience with sights and sounds etc.[/quote]

This sounds like you are separating out experience from sights and sounds?

Each thing perceived is an experience.

Is there anything else?

You say the body is not the thing that experiences?

Explain why.

Can you find anything other than the body which is having a sensation?

Or are the sensations happening at the point of contact?

Scientists tell us that signals go to the brain but science does not really know what those are yet.

So forgetting everything you learned at school about brains, where does the experience happen?

What is experiencing it?

Consider that if you say YOU can't find it, then that might be a place to look as well.

Is there really a YOU there which can't find it?

Or is there nothing?

Again, this is not about taking something away.

It is about finding out something we think of as common sense is not what you think it is.

[mark_tywharton]

Again (for clarity)

So in that set of experiences, is there a single entity, an I, having the experience?

No. There is just the experience with sights and sounds etc.

This sounds like you are separating out experience from sights and sounds?

Each thing perceived is an experience.

Is there anything else?

You say the body is not the thing that experiences?

Explain why.

Can you find anything other than the body which is having a sensation?

Or are the sensations happening at the point of contact?

Scientists tell us that signals go to the brain but science does not really know what those are yet.

So forgetting everything you learned at school about brains, where does the experience happen?

What is experiencing it?

Consider that if you say YOU can't find it, then that might be a place to look as well.

Is there really a YOU there which can't find it?

Or is there nothing?

Again, this is not about taking something away.

It is about finding out something we think of as common sense is not what you think it is.

[mister]

This sounds like you are separating out experience from sights and sounds? Each thing perceived is an experience.

This was bad wording on my part. Sights and sounds are experience.

Is there anything else?

Other than experience? No.

You say the body is not the thing that experiences? Explain why.

It's made out of experience. It's made from sensation and images.

Can you find anything other than the body which is having a sensation? Or are the sensations happening at the point of contact?

The body isn't having sensation. It is sensations (this includes sights, sounds, smells, tastes). The sensations happen. All objects (including the body) are interpretations of sensation. Two objects touching each other would be an interpretation of sensation. All of this is experience.

where does the experience happen?

There is no way to answer this. "Here" might be the best answer. But experience is what here is made of.

What is experiencing it?

There is no way to answer this. There is no way to look for this. There is experience. Parts of experience can be focused on. Like the hands, the location of the head. But all of this is just more experience. There isn't a thing experiencing the experience or parts of it.

Is there really a YOU there which can't find it?

Is there really a me here that can't find that which experiences this experience? This just gives me a headache. There isn't anything that experiences this experience. There is just experience happening. Thoughts and sensations. That's it. So is there a me that discovered that? No. Here's the hands. Here's the typing. Here's thoughts about experience which is just more experience. No experiencing experience. Just experience.

Or is there nothing?

There isn't nothing. There's everything. Just no one to experience it.

[mister]

The friend scenario.

Okay when I imagine going to meet my friend tomorrow (which is an actual plan). The imagination of me riding my bike. Here it's the imagined version of the experience: the feeling of pedals moving. The feeling of the handlebars. Images of my legs pedaling. Sensation of looking up from that seeing the road move. What part of this imagination is labelled me? The sensation of the body is the most me part.

Being at my friends house. His face. Probably a conversation on how we'll move his stuff and what the overall plan is. The me part? Maybe my hand shaking his.

remembering talking with my father just now on the phone. I remember paying more attention to thoughts about this stuff and missing what he said. Some feelings of annoyance about something he said about overpopulation. Feelings of regret for being harsh with him. It's hard to sense what part was me.

Me is mostly the imagined feeling of this body in different scenarios.

However when you communicate with yourself, you will probably find that you don't drop the imagination of you, you still try and interact with yourself based on your invisible visualisation of you. The false I.

I'm having trouble following this. What do you mean by communicate with yourself? Or interact with yourself? Like talking to yourself? I imagine having conversations with others but not with myself. I suppose I tell myself stuff. Like "Tom, you fool" when I do something stupid. Or when bike riding, "Come on Tom push it." if I'm running late.

I think I'll need some help doing this one step by step.

[mister]

I still believe I'm me=this body. I can't help it.

[mark_tywharton]

It's hard to sense what part was me.

All of it was you, or none of it, it is the same thing...

However when you communicate with yourself, you will probably find that you don't drop the imagination of you, you still try and interact with yourself based on your invisible visualisation of you. The false I.

I'm having trouble following this. What do you mean by communicate with yourself? Or interact with yourself?

Okay, to put it another way. When you think about your friend in planning, your friend appears in the imagination. When you think about you in planning, you appear in the imagination. When you meet your friend, you interact with your actual real friend. But continue to interact with the imagination of you and not your real body. Everything goes through this filter "I". Can you find that filter?

I suppose I tell myself stuff. Like "Tom, you fool" when I do something stupid. Or when bike riding, "Come on Tom push it." if I'm running late.

So who are you talking to?

Have you found out that there are a whole load of interactions with something that is not really Tom?

[mark_tywharton]

I still believe I'm me=this body. I can't help it.

In all likelihood there is a body.

But who are you to take ownership of it?

That is very selfish don't you think?

There are colonies of bacteria working to keep the body alive. Literally thousands of processes which take place without your say so.

You're like a maladjusted king, full of your own importance, under the illusion you are ruling over all these processes.

And you don't really exist.

Keep looking.

You believe you are you?

So is it the body?

Okay, so if your arm was ripped off by a bear, one one level it would be true to say "a part of me is missing"

And if you cut your finger nails, on one level it would be true to say "parts of me are missing"

But if you cut your finger nails you would not relate to your "self" as incomplete

Look at that relationship (use different analogies)

How much of the experience of you is based on circumstantial evidence or prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation?

Looking directly at the way the body and thought relate, what can be seen?