Looking for guidance

[dreamer]

here they come



1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

[nenad]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There isn't. There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It is an idea that there is an entity called 'I' wich thinks thoughts, makes disicions and moves "it's" body any way it wants. It apperas to be able to do all of this independently of anything that happens "outside" of it.
It starts very early, before memories can reach, beacouse all of the memories refer to 'me'. However, memories prior to entering pre-school don't provoke a sense of self as firm as the sense of self triggered by memories from pre-school, school and later.
This illusion works beacouse all the thoughts, in one way or another, refer to I as a key figure. (Eg. If there is a thought "Australia" it refers to an image of Australia, but not just any image of Australia, it is "my image of Australia"-this refers to a memory of 'me' imagining Australia.) Conversations between people create entire story around this I. This story appears to be real beaucouse thoughts (statements contained in them) seem to be real. This is beaucouse thought always contains two opposite statements. (Eg. "i am going to stand up now" and "No, I Am not going to stand up now.") So, whatever happens one of the statements is true, and that is how thoughts always "get confirmed by reality".

) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

There is this feeling of deep restfullness. It provides joyfull, relxed energie for evereyday activities. It is not always obvius, but when there is a doubt ("is it still here?" "Was it just a temporary thing?") it ussually "presents itself". It is as if it is proving itself to be real whenever necessary. There are moments in wich it doesn't appear to be there. Then I ask myself *:"Does it need to be here? Does anything need to change?"
Many feelings are the same as they used to be, but sometimes they "disolve" themselves into this deep restfullness.
Thoughts still come in series, but these series often get interrumpted by one of the questions you have asked, or with one of the realisations trigered by them.
This deep restfullness also makes feelings and thoughts more relaxed and injoyable.
A sense of self is still firm, especially when I look myself * in the miror. It feels the same as before, and there are thoughts like: "There I am, I am still here". That is ok. Those are just fellings and thoughts.
* It also feels very natural to use sentences like "I ask myself". However, it often provokes a question: "Do I reaaly mean that or is it just a figure of speach?". It is a figur of speech and it also goes along with the sense of self.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

"Of course you believe in a separate self. We all have a sense of self, every thoughts implies a self, and conversation would be practically imposiblle without the word 'I'. An idea of self can be very usefull. However, does this mean that self really exists? Can you find it somewhere, except inside a thought?"

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

When you asked me how do I experience a choice when there is no controller in controll, I waited for a thought wich implies a choice. And it came: "I am going to stand up now." (thought No1) and: "No, I am not goingto stand up" (thought No2). It was always like this, it is just that I always assumed that I have a choice - I can either obbey thought No1 (stand up in this case), or I can think thought No2. And then an idea occured: "What if there are always 2 thougts, no matter what. what if thought No2 is there even if "I do obbey" the thought No1?" I checked it in a couple of situtiotions after that and it was clear that there really are 2 opposite thoughts each time.
Next morning, when you asked how does it feel to see thet there only seems to be a choice, this feeling of deep restfullness apeared. During the day "I realised" that it is ok to feel like there is a chice, it is still clear that there isn't. However, it still feltlike something else needs to happen.
In the evening, when you asked if there is anything miising in seeing trou the illusion of 'I', it was clear that there isn't. "Nothing is missing", "Nothing else needs to happen", "It is fine now". :))

Again, thank you so much :)

Greetings, Nenad

[dreamer]

Thank you so much for your answers
I will bring them to other guides and you will hear from me ASAP

warm regards Vivi

[dreamer]

We would like you to answer some more questions:

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Thank you

Vivi

[nenad]

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

I refer to thoughts that seem to be actively thought by someone (me) (as opposed to toughts that appear to intrude, to come ininvited). Of course, these only seems to be soo. Thoughts in both groups just come out of nowhere. I also refer to this "headless body" (:P) around me. Also, I refer to the sum of all the memories. More precisely, this picture of 'me' (looks either like the apperance in the mirror or like 'me' on 'my' photographies) in those memories.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

There is only experience.

Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

The body is part of the experince. (Though, it is the most constant part of the expreience. Whenever I look for it, it is always around, unlike the monitor or the building across the street. However, they are all part of the same experience.)

) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

As I said there were 3 key moments, but let us say the 3rd one was the awekening. I was very surprised that nothing is missing any more. It was was amaying how this constant feeling of something missing dissapeared, and I didn't even notice.

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

When I went to bed last night, the feeling of deep restfullness wasn't there. A thought occured: "Maybe this wasn't awakening after all." And there was a bounch of other thoughts explaining that meybe 'this isn't it'. Nevertheless, the honest answer to the questions: "is anything missing?" "Does anything need to change" was still no.
After that 'I noticed" that my body doesn't feel all that separated from the bed or the air around. I had similar experinces before, but this time it was intersting that when I tried to locate a sense of self, it cept "sliping", I couldn't actually locate it.
This morningy brother woke me up to clean our dog's poop, after a while he brought the dog to my room, so I couldn't sleep further. But, non of this realy bothered me. And also, the feeling of deep restfullness was there again :)

Greetings, Nenad

[dreamer]

Thanks :)

You will hear from me

[nenad]

Ok

Thank you :)

[dreamer]

Hi nenad

Could you clarify this a bit

A sense of self is still firm, especially when I look myself * in the miror. It feels the same as before, and there are thoughts like: "There I am, I am still here". That is ok. Those are just fellings and thoughts.

Greetings Vivi

[nenad]

Hi, Vivi,

Could you clarify this a bit

A sense of self is still firm, especially when I look myself * in the miror. It feels the same as before, and there are thoughts like: "There I am, I am still here". That is ok. Those are just fellings and thoughts.

Sure. I mean, I don't feel wierd when I look at the miror. I just did that now (went in front of the miror and looked).
There is stilll a thought: "This is me". However, I also noticed an opossite tought: " This feels like I am looking at someone (else). Not in a wierd way, just interesting." And I realised: "Of course there is an opposite thought. There always is. Both toughts are equally relevant. And they are just thoughts."

Greetings, Nenad

[dreamer]

Thank you :)

[nenad]

Thank you :)

Wellcome :)

[nenad]

Could you clarify this a bit

A sense of self is still firm, especially when I look myself * in the miror. It feels the same as before, and there are thoughts like: "There I am, I am still here". That is ok. Those are just fellings and thoughts.

Sure. I mean, I don't feel wierd when I look at the miror. I just did that now (went in front of the miror and looked).
There is stilll a thought: "This is me". However, I also noticed an opossite tought: " This feels like I am looking at someone (else). Not in a wierd way, just interesting." And I realised: "Of course there is an opposite thought. There always is. Both toughts are equally relevant. And they are just thoughts."

Maybe I should also clarify what it actually is. It is an apperance in the mirror. Just that :)

[dreamer]

Exactly :)

[dreamer]

Hello Nenad

How is others experienced?

Warm regards Vivi

[nenad]

Hi Vivi,

How is others experienced?

Well, there are stories about others, about "my mom" "my brother", 'my father", "my friends". All these stories are based on how those people interact with "me". There are lot of our memories together. There is physical perception of their bodies. Feelings can be trigered by their presence. I didn't try to look if they have a separate self. Should I?
Does that answer your question or I missunderstood it?

Warm regards, Nenad