The Gate

Hi Robert,

Good morning, John... or at least it is here in Texas.

Yes! This is how it is. No thinker and yet thinking happens. No reader and yet reading happens. No seer and yet seeing happens. So where do you reside?

Well the obvious answer to where I reside is no-where since there is no self to do the residing. However, my experience keeps saying "I" reside in my awareness. But I took your advice and examined this awareness closer.

Good. This is part of the basic illusion - the experience of being located in space. The experience is real, the conclusion needs to be checked out. :)

What I learned is awareness is a product of experience rather than cause. Awareness can only happen when there is something to be aware of. How do I know this... when I go to sleep and body/mind shuts down so does awareness. Of course when I dream the mind/thoughts are at play and again awareness arises. Mathematically speaking object X subject = awareness.

Good looking Robert. You'll appreciate that in these Strawberry Fields :) it can never be described. But good to explore and see the limits of concepts and logic.

Hope this makes sense. I'm going to continue to drill into this.

If you're going to drill, keeping looking for the one apparently, pre-supposedly, holding the drill.

What if everything had no label. What if you knew the name of nothing. Looking around, nothing had a name.
What if you too had no name?

So the answer here is things get pretty quiet. Without labels and name there isn't much to think about. In fact thinking becomes nearly impossible. This actually is fairly easy for me to do since it's an exercise I've been working on for a number of years now... not the no label part but the not thinking part. Though I will say when I approach it from the no label angle it seems much cleaner and less effortless.

Great! In any room, take a few minutes to settle down - and then slowly look around and, one by one, take off the labels from what is seen. By labels, I mean a "sense of knowing" of what is being seen. So even if "cup" is set aside, there may still be a "sense of cup" - set that aside too. The objects, the walls, the windows. All labels set aside.

If in the mood, turn this 180 degrees around and take the labels completely off that which is apparently looking.

Speak soon,
John

Some additional thoughts here.

It seems the closer I examine this no-self idea the more disheartening it becomes. As much as I read about it, and thought I believed it, I guess I never really examined it. To be honest I'm finding the whole thing a little sad. It's almost like mourning a death

And of course this no-self idea brings out a whole host of other questions. If there is no self, what the hell is there? I almost feel like I'm back at square one where I didn't believe in anything. Oh well, no big deal.

Hi Robert,

Some additional thoughts here.

It seems the closer I examine this no-self idea the more disheartening it becomes. As much as I read about it, and thought I believed it, I guess I never really examined it. To be honest I'm finding the whole thing a little sad. It's almost like mourning a death

And of course this no-self idea brings out a whole host of other questions. If there is no self, what the hell is there? I almost feel like I'm back at square one where I didn't believe in anything. Oh well, no big deal.

Sadness is very common. As is fear. All pretty much comes with the territory.

I felt sad too. Although, once it's seen for what it is, the sadness can turn to amusement.

To continue, check each thought and see if there was "you" that thought it up. Or whether that was only just another thought showing up to no-one. Thoughts apparently show up unbidden. Have a look.

With best wishes,
John

Hello John,

Just a quick update before trotting off to work.

Great! In any room, take a few minutes to settle down - and then slowly look around and, one by one, take off the labels from what is seen. By labels, I mean a "sense of knowing" of what is being seen. So even if "cup" is set aside, there may still be a "sense of cup" - set that aside too. The objects, the walls, the windows. All labels set aside.

If in the mood, turn this 180 degrees around and take the labels completely off that which is apparently looking.

Really enjoying this exercise. So simple and subtle, yet exceptionally powerful.

I'm working on letting it occur as naturally as possible too. Trying to take the mind out of the equation. A simple pointer I'm using is whenever my head starts to hurt I know I'm concentrating too hard and back off. When I let the exercise flow there is a feeling of beauty and grace.

Through it all I'm getting a better understanding how the mind tries to control the experiences. I have found no "ghost in the machine"... but have discovered a pesky little machine in the ghost.

To continue, check each thought and see if there was "you" that thought it up. Or whether that was only just another thought showing up to no-one. Thoughts apparently show up unbidden. Have a look.

I do see this and think I have for quite some time. The difference now is I better understand the implications of it. There are changes going on in my perception. It is noticeable and encouraging. It feels like I'm making real progress here.

Thank you for giving me your valuable time, John. It has not been in vain. You, this site, and everyone involved are worthy of the old zen masters' respect.

Warmest Regards,
Robert

Hi Robert,

Hello John,

Just a quick update before trotting off to work.

Great! In any room, take a few minutes to settle down - and then slowly look around and, one by one, take off the labels from what is seen. By labels, I mean a "sense of knowing" of what is being seen. So even if "cup" is set aside, there may still be a "sense of cup" - set that aside too. The objects, the walls, the windows. All labels set aside.

If in the mood, turn this 180 degrees around and take the labels completely off that which is apparently looking.

Really enjoying this exercise. So simple and subtle, yet exceptionally powerful.

I'm working on letting it occur as naturally as possible too. Trying to take the mind out of the equation. A simple pointer I'm using is whenever my head starts to hurt I know I'm concentrating too hard and back off. When I let the exercise flow there is a feeling of beauty and grace.

Wonderful. Yes, just ordinary, plain, raw, soft, seeing and any sense-of-knowing the object, SWISH it aside. As less and less is known about the object, you may find the focus retreats a little from the object to mid-distance.

Through it all I'm getting a better understanding how the mind tries to control the experiences. I have found no "ghost in the machine"... but have discovered a pesky little machine in the ghost.

LOL :) What a great quote!!!

To continue, check each thought and see if there was "you" that thought it up. Or whether that was only just another thought showing up to no-one. Thoughts apparently show up unbidden. Have a look.

I do see this and think I have for quite some time. The difference now is I better understand the implications of it. There are changes going on in my perception. It is noticeable and encouraging. It feels like I'm making real progress here.

Nice work.

Thank you for giving me your valuable time, John. It has not been in vain. You, this site, and everyone involved are worthy of the old zen masters' respect.

Thank you. It's a pleasure.

With best wishes,
John

Hi John,

Been a busy day but wanted to get in touch so you don't give up on us. ;)

There are changes, major changes... At least it feels that way. Hesitant to say I'm at the gate but there certainly has been a shift in perspective or experience.

• -The frustration in gone.
  -Intellectually I know 100% there is no self.
  -Experientially? Not even sure what that means or what to look for anymore.
  -Contentment. Nothing to find and I'm totally cool with that.

So that's kind of how things are feeling now. Will try to get more detailed tomorrow when there's more time. Look forward to following up with you on this.

Warmest Regards,
Robert

BTW - I recall reading you had three separate instances where seeing became apparent. Do you mind if I ask what that means? Can you describe what you "saw"?

One last observation tonight.

I was walking the dogs in the woods today. While strolling in complete thoughtlessness there was a sudden sound of rustling in the bushes and flapping wings as a startled bird took flight. Immediately, and without effort, a single word popped into my head... "Dove!" Afterwords it struck me how profound the experience was. I saw, in clearest detail, the automatic labeling the mind performs with everything that comes into its view. Lesson learned.

Hi Robert,

Hi John,

Been a busy day but wanted to get in touch so you don't give up on us. ;)

There are changes, major changes... At least it feels that way. Hesitant to say I'm at the gate but there certainly has been a shift in perspective or experience.

• -The frustration in gone.
  -Intellectually I know 100% there is no self.
  -Experientially? Not even sure what that means or what to look for anymore.
  -Contentment. Nothing to find and I'm totally cool with that.

So that's kind of how things are feeling now. Will try to get more detailed tomorrow when there's more time. Look forward to following up with you on this.

Warmest Regards,
Robert

Wonderful! :)

BTW - I recall reading you had three separate instances where seeing became apparent. Do you mind if I ask what that means? Can you describe what you "saw"?

Happy to share the story, once we're done. :) Don't wish to influence your own lovely seeing unfolding.

With warm wishes,
John

Hi John,

Happy to share the story, once we're done. :) Don't wish to influence your own lovely seeing unfolding.

I'm not sure, but I think we are done. Need to take a couple of days to let things "unfold" as you say. I'm off work right now so I will be able to focus 110%. Get back with you soon.

Humbly,
Robert

Hi Robert,

Hi John,

Happy to share the story, once we're done. :) Don't wish to influence your own lovely seeing unfolding.

I'm not sure, but I think we are done. Need to take a couple of days to let things "unfold" as you say. I'm off work right now so I will be able to focus 110%. Get back with you soon.

Humbly,
Robert

An excellent idea. Life may appear to come to and through where you once were.

Have fun. Stay light. :) And speak soon.

With warmest wishes,
John

Dear John,

A few years ago I was contemplating the nature of seeking when a thought occurred to me – “Just change your perspective.” I knew this was a huge revelation and somehow the key to finding what I was looking for. Unfortunately, at the time, I had no idea what it meant.

Fast forward to today I know exactly what it means thanks to the help of this wonderful group of folks here at LU. It means to not see life from the perspective of the fictional character I called “me”. It means to see through the illusion of an independent entity know as Robert. It means to experience life in its purest form as life just being life.

There is no Self!!! The idea is so unbelievably simple I’m almost embarrassed I didn’t get it so many years earlier. To think of all the struggling; the pain; the anxiety; the hundreds of dollars on books; the countless hours reading, all the contemplation and meditation; all of it… all of it pointless. Or was it?

Looking back I can see how the journey has been chipping away at the idea of self all along. The problem is that up until now it was the self that was in charge of the looking. That’s kind of like asking the monkeys at the zoo to find out who’s been stealing the bananas. It’s just not in the self’s best interest to turn itself in.

That point really hit home when I truly examined the idea of no-self and terror punched me in the stomach like a cannon ball. And when that fear turned sadness I could, for the very first time, see how the preservation of sense-of-self is such a controlling factor in all our experience.

I see now that the “Self” is much like an egotistical, spoiled little brat. No matter what the experience it always tries to insert itself into the middle of it. The “Self” believes it is the center of the Universe and does everything it can to perpetuate the myth.

So I guess the bottom line is it feels like I have finally seen through the illusion. I know there is still much to go through as life adjusts to this new perspective. I do understand this is not the end but a beginning. In fact, that’s what makes it so wonderful. At 52 years old I feel like I’ve been born all over again. There is a brand new life in here to experience. And I’m sure it promises to be an amazing ride.

Through all the calamity of this experience there is another truth beside no-self that I have discovered. And that is the credit for this seeing is not my own. It is the amazing work and love of everyone involved with this site that facilitated this breakthrough; and specifically you John.

You are such a kind and gentle soul. To be honest, I had my doubts at first about your approach. I thought I needed someone to confront my beliefs, yell at me and kick me in the balls. Instead, you gently and lovingly guided me to do the work myself; to see with my own eyes what had been in front of me all along. And for that John, I will be forever grateful. You were without a doubt the right teacher for the right student at the right time. Funny how things work out that way.

And now it's time to go wash the dishes.

Yours Truly,
Robert

Hi Robert,

Dear John,

A few years ago I was contemplating the nature of seeking when a thought occurred to me – “Just change your perspective.” I knew this was a huge revelation and somehow the key to finding what I was looking for. Unfortunately, at the time, I had no idea what it meant.

Fast forward to today I know exactly what it means thanks to the help of this wonderful group of folks here at LU. It means to not see life from the perspective of the fictional character I called “me”. It means to see through the illusion of an independent entity know as Robert. It means to experience life in its purest form as life just being life.

There is no Self!!! The idea is so unbelievably simple I’m almost embarrassed I didn’t get it so many years earlier. To think of all the struggling; the pain; the anxiety; the hundreds of dollars on books; the countless hours reading, all the contemplation and meditation; all of it… all of it pointless. Or was it?

Looking back I can see how the journey has been chipping away at the idea of self all along. The problem is that up until now it was the self that was in charge of the looking. That’s kind of like asking the monkeys at the zoo to find out who’s been stealing the bananas. It’s just not in the self’s best interest to turn itself in.

That point really hit home when I truly examined the idea of no-self and terror punched me in the stomach like a cannon ball. And when that fear turned sadness I could, for the very first time, see how the preservation of sense-of-self is such a controlling factor in all our experience.

I see now that the “Self” is much like an egotistical, spoiled little brat. No matter what the experience it always tries to insert itself into the middle of it. The “Self” believes it is the center of the Universe and does everything it can to perpetuate the myth.

So I guess the bottom line is it feels like I have finally seen through the illusion. I know there is still much to go through as life adjusts to this new perspective. I do understand this is not the end but a beginning. In fact, that’s what makes it so wonderful. At 52 years old I feel like I’ve been born all over again. There is a brand new life in here to experience. And I’m sure it promises to be an amazing ride.

Through all the calamity of this experience there is another truth beside no-self that I have discovered. And that is the credit for this seeing is not my own. It is the amazing work and love of everyone involved with this site that facilitated this breakthrough; and specifically you John.

You are such a kind and gentle soul. To be honest, I had my doubts at first about your approach. I thought I needed someone to confront my beliefs, yell at me and kick me in the balls. Instead, you gently and lovingly guided me to do the work myself; to see with my own eyes what had been in front of me all along. And for that John, I will be forever grateful. You were without a doubt the right teacher for the right student at the right time. Funny how things work out that way.

And now it's time to go wash the dishes.

Yours Truly,
Robert

Thank you for the kind words. :) There was certainly a recognition of many aspects of the journey here.

Ok Robert, here are some questions which are great to help you to clarify the experience as it's unfolding and us to see what more needs to be explored, if any. So please just write what shows up in response. Have fun! :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

With warm wishes,
John

Hello John,

Let's see what we have here:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

"Me, a name I call myself" -Do-Re-Mi

Me is a label for Self and Self a label for thoughts pointing to experience. Self is a construct of the mind. It consists entirely of thoughts. There is no being or entity behind the sense of self. There is no separate self. The illusion of self happens when thoughts of self are perceived as a real entity.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The automated process of the mind constantly labels everything that is experienced by the body (the mind/body relationship). When there is pain the mind labels it as "I hurt", joy = 'I'm happy", anger = "I'm mad". Even thoughts are given ownership to the centralized experience as in "I think...". Eventually this story is believed. Experience is experienced from the perspective of the imaginary self; much like the narrator of a story. I suspect this illusion begins with the use of, and is entirely dependent on, language.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Relief that the seeking is over. If there is no seeker there can be no one seeking. Contentment. The feeling there is nothing to search for, no secret to expose. I believe there is still a great deal yet to experience but it will come by itself. There is no self who has to make those experiences happen.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I might first discuss the philosophy, logic and science behind it. I might explain how it has been pointed to throughout the ages in every school of art, thought and religion. I would lastly direct them to look for themselves and explain how utterly simple it is.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

Looking back it was that moment when I deeply entertained the idea there was no self and was struck with that "I'm about to die" level of fear. Up until then I believed I had no fear of liberation. I had so often contemplated the idea of losing myself, of dying as the price to pay for seeing the truth, I was convinced there was absolutely no fear left in me. I thought I was willing to give up everything for the truth; career, family, security. And then with that one moment of fear it became clear it was all a story; a big fat lie I told myself to hide me from the truth. Afterwords is when I think no-self became a reality and not just another concept. It was even further solidified by the sadness experienced at the loss of "self control".

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

"I" refers to the story of Robert. It is a label to the memories and processes that seem to revolve around this central experience. It's an organizational tool much like naming a folder on your computer so you can later find the files you store. Without the use of the label "I" things would get rather confusing in a hurry.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

With no self there can be no experiencer. There is only the illusion of experiencer because experience appears to be centralized to the body. When a car is seen it is from the perspective of the eyes. If a bird chirps it is experienced from the perspective of the ears. Experience or awareness is complex in that it requires both subject and object to be present. If there is no one in the forest to hear the tree fall then there is no sound. Conversely, if no tree falls when there is someone there to hear it there also is no sound.

8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

Neither, experience belongs to itself.

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

Oddly worded question... one that would imply there was someone to awake. Now if we are referring to the moment the illusion of self was seen thru then there wasn't one. No aha moment here. I wish there was. It would make for a much more interesting story.

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

There is a lightness to life that previously wasn't there. The most noticeable change in experience is during "zen practice". I was never a big fan of formal sitting meditation so a few years ago I decided to try meditating all the time - while walking, sitting, driving, whenever. The main focus was in trying to stop the thinking process. I actually got pretty good at stilling the mind for minutes at a time. Yet it always required effort, great effort in fact. Enough effort it would make the head hurt. Since seeing through the illusion there has been a noticeable shift in the experience of this exercise. It comes with ease now. No more headaches. Yesterday in particular there was an almost bliss like feeling while doing the exercise. I can remember saying it was the closest I've come to the eye opening experience of 8 years ago. I was walking around feeling electrified, goosebumps covering my body.

So there it is. I will be happy to elaborate further if there are any questions. I look forward to working on anything you feel I may have missed.

Warm Regards,
Robert

As an addendum to question 10, there's a line from the song Schism by Tool that's been playing over and over in my head these last couple days. The line is: "I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down". May not mean anything at all but it sure is a damn good song. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1I6pFbwhWU

Hi Robert,

As an addendum to question 10, there's a line from the song Schism by Tool that's been playing over and over in my head these last couple days. The line is: "I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down". May not mean anything at all but it sure is a damn good song. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1I6pFbwhWU

Thank you for the responses! Shall pass those for the other guides to take a look and comment.

Great video by the way!!! :)

With warm wishes,
John