Thread for Ana

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:36 pm

Dearest Ana,

thank you for your reply. Its clear that you are really doing some DE kinda looking! Good for you.
Dont forget to visit or better still, walk the Abel Tasman National Park when you tour the South Island. If you dont, maybe I will stop guiding you! (just playing, but its really lovely and should not be missed out on on your tour...).
I haven't said much yet about "inside" (thoughts) and an "outside" (world), also about linear time being a vast illusion, and how I got the Ana identity. In this context I meant to ask in how much detail I should go into describing how learning who I am was drilled into me over again through growing up, school, family and society?
Ana, you can write as much as you want to. However, it may be very helpful, if you find that you have written a great deal, to DE all that you have written, over and over and over, until the essential points are clear. And then you could almost put them in a sort of bullet point style. This is to encourage further DE of your own discoveries.

If you prefer to let rip and simply write whatever comes, that is fine. We are here for you. But, do consider the above suggestion...

You are doing really well, Ana. Keep it up.

Much love,

Shell xxx

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jowate
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:22 pm

Hi Ana and Shell,

I've been travelling back from Sweden today and off again tomorrow to a week of meetings ... hopefully I'll be able to catch up with what you've been writing and re-enter the exploration once I'm settled.

Much love to you both, T.

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Ana
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:15 am

I haven't said much yet about "inside" (thoughts) and an "outside" (world), also about linear time being a vast illusion, and how I got the Ana identity. In this context I meant to ask in how much detail I should go into describing how learning who I am was drilled into me over again through growing up, school, family and society?


Dear Shell and T.,

it feels like I need to write about 'inside' and 'outside', and about linear time being a vast illusion, at the same time as I they seem to me inseparable now. Let's see if I can find words for this. Experiencing time as short or long is very common to most people, however the more I immerse myself in whatever I experience 'time' ceases to be part of it. Experiencing, although the verb suggests an element of time, just happens, it doesn't need 'time' for it to happen, it just is. However, as soon as this way of experiencing is not 'maintained' and experiencing starts looking at 'itself', this results in a split, dividing again into experiencer, experienced and experiencing and thereby creates 'I' and 'you', 'me' and the 'world', 'inside' and 'outside'. And also 'time'. As if 'time' is needed to keep the separation going, or, put the other way around, as if separation is needed to keep time going, in a way reinforcing each other.

Scary, as long as I struggle to reconcile what I tried to describe above with arguments like “but we can measure time, or, to stay with the example of Christchurch, I remember what the cathedral looked like in January 2011, and photos 'prove' that it was there, so my memory of it is 'right'. You'll go mad if you let this in.” However, I sit here, not engaging with the argument – and nothing terrible seems to be happening! This is new, somehow beyond right and wrong, as if there is no need to deny the 'me and the rest of the world' and no need to assert 'experience outside of time'. I'm at the edge of what I can say, if not slightly over it. I'll leave it here.


How did I get the Ana identity?

Thank you, Shell, for your reply how to approach this. I intend to keep it short, of course there's much I could write, but in a way there might be no need for you to know all the details, so I'll leave it up to you two to ask where needed. I'll start with what, I think, is my first memory, but then try and list events that shaped me in form of bullet points. So here goes

* first memory: I was definitely under 4 as we moved house then, but my memory suggests I was 3, maybe even younger. For some reason I was outside the house on the opposite side of the street and nearly got run over by a car while trying to cross it. I froze and squatted and the car stopped right in front of me. Next thing I remember is that I was inside the house, my parents and the driver looking at me, making me lie down on the sofa and 'rest' whereas I just wanted to get up again and play...

* happy childhood, feels pleasant overall; parents being quite consistent in what we were allowed and what not, they sometimes punished us with a hiding. Though I always felt loved by my parents. I've got three elder brothers.

* loved primary school, sports, playing and sometimes wrestling in the schoolyard (I remember myself as second strongest kid)

* learnt to play table tennis at the age of 10, soon started to play competitions with varying success

* at the age of 10 or 11 first sexual encounter with my brother, lasted 1-2 years; a secret I only shared with friends in my early twenties; felt very very embarrassed at first, though feel 'through with it' now

* around the same time became self-aware of my face blushing very easily, got teased about this from school and club mates; being asked to read aloud in the classroom reinforced the embarrassment

* interested in boys early on, many boyfriends, most of my adult life in relationships, up to today

* with 19 bought and started riding a motorbike after the split up with my first more serious love (he had the same bike …), kept biking for good ten years

* studied pharmacy (on suggestion of my aunt, I didn't know what to do after school) and became a pharmacist. Ended up in a big hospital pharmacy cum school for pharmaceutical technicians, though challenging, I loved it and felt appreciated, my boss put a lot of trust in me, more than I did myself

* with 30 went to my first meditation class at fwbo/triratna, got interested in Buddhism a year later and asked for ordination the year after. Entered the order in 2000. Left my job with 33 and have worked and lived in the context of this movement since, of which I spent most of the past 8 years abroad (during my time in the Spanish mountains I took on the name Ana for the sake of convenience)

I'll leave it here, it's an interesting process to write this down. There's so many details one could write about or leave aside. Sometimes a voice seemed to be telling me 'this is important, you need to mention this' or feeling anxious that things might get misunderstood. Ah well, selfing at work. Over to you.

Much love

Ana

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:01 am

Ana dear, thank you very much for your reply.

Exercise: look at these three words: table, university, Batman.
Now, all of these three words are simply labels. Only one of them is a lable of something "real" (for the purpose of this exercise). Clearly, the word Batman points to something non-existant, a story figure. Look closely at the word "university". Does this word point to something exact? What does the word "university"
point to? Anything as "real" as a "table"? Does the word "university" serve a purpose? If so, what?

Exercise 2: Look at the word "I". Is it any more personal than "university"? Does the word "I" point to anything specific, like "table"?

When, in your life, did you learn that "I" was you? Work it out, look deeply. Instead of a language based on sentences like, "clouds are clouding; drops of water are falling; reading is happening; eating is happening; playing is happening (etc); a sensation of heat is felt on the skin of the body", how and when did it happen that we learnt, "I am reading"; "I am eating"; "I am playing"; and "I am uncomfortably hot! MY body feels uncomfortably warm"".

What purpose did the lable, "Ana" serve?
What ensured that you came to believe that "Ana" is WHAT YOU ARE?
How did the belief that you are "Ana" become so deeply ingrained that you dont even know anymore that it is a false belief and not true at all, but instead, absolutely true for you and of you?

Much love,
Shell and T

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Ana
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:28 am

Dear Shell and T.,

just to say that I've just read your post - thank you.

My mind went blank when reading your questions. But I know that response and just have to be patient and come back to it tomorrow. I'll take my time and report as best as I can.

Much love

Ana

P.S.: I will be travelling the north island of New Zealand this time. The closest I got to the Abel Tasman National Park two years ago was sea kayaking near Marahau, and seeing a bit of it from above in a 10 minute tandem hang-gliding flight from Motueka. Not exactly the same than walking it, maybe one day.... I hope you'll keep guiding me regardless ;-)
I do appreciate your guidance immensely.

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:02 pm

Hey dear Ana,

you wrote, "My mind went blank when reading your questions".

Good. If you continue to ask the one thing for answers (mind) that can NEVER answer (mind) you will be fighting an impossible battle.

Jolly glad the mind went blanjk - it did because it CAN NEVER ANSWER what "you" want to know. So go with the DE, dear and report as and when you can.

(ps...thank you for telling me about your experiences in Marahau with the sea kayaking, etc. I spent the entire early part of my life in that playground, give or take 50 kms in all directions) xxx

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Ana
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:10 am

Dear Shell and T.,

Looking at the word “university”, it seems to symbolize something potential like a certain way of life, fun, hard work, knowledge, career, status, etc.. It implies a future. It doesn't point to something as “real” as the word “table”, unless you mean the building itself. There are many tables and many universities, so in that sense none of them point to something more “real” than the other, they just categorize and say it's “university” not “school” or it's a “table” not a “chair”.

The word “I” points to the person that is using this word. It is self referential, pointing to a living body interacting with the world around it through its senses (including thought). Although “I” does feel more personal, it is no more personal than the word “university”, it's just a word or a symbol. Again, although “I” feels more specific it doesn't point to anything specific in the sense of fixed or unchanging. It points to a conglomerate of physical and mental processes.

I can't tell when exactly I learnt the “I” was me, but maybe that's not what you're asking. It seems to me that language is a crucial factor in this. Being called by the same name repeatedly, eventually responding to it and starting to speak by picking up and using the words I've heard. Learning how to read and write must have solidified this process, giving me 'tools' to differentiate things more and more detailed and express that both verbally and in writing. Operating in different languages later on made me aware of different types of grammar and idioms, different ways of communicating the same thing. I first became more aware about the deviding power of language some years ago, it usually deviding into subject, object and an interaction between them. Language is bound to be dualistic and creates a persuasive self referiential loop ... unless used more in a poetical way.
So by using the name I was given by my parents all over again, together with referring to me as “I” I identified with it in an unquestioning way. Actually, there were times when I used to introduce myself by deliberately saying “hello, I am ….” instead of “my name is ….”. When getting a buddhist name, my identity shifted away from my previous identity, but in many ways just became a slightly different identity. It's different with 'Ana' which I chose in order to provide a pronouncable lable for me when operating in different languages/countries. It shakes up my sense of self but by no means eliminates it.

I'll leave it here, this got already longer than I thought it would.

Much love

Ana

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:24 pm

Dear Ana,
We really appreciate your sincerity and your answers. Thank you.

1) Ana, do you now realise that addressing you as "Ana" is simply a convenient form of communication in the world, but that you are NOT Ana?

2) Ana, are you the human body and so-called mind? Please look directly and dont answer from an obviously impressive intellectual stance. If you have the feeling that you reside somewhere in the body, please look very directly and tell us where that feeling of you resides (between the ears, somewhere in the head, heart, or nowhere).

This wont take a long answer to answer. Just tell us what your DE is.

Much love,

Shell and T xxx

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:11 am

Dear Shell and T.,

1) Yes, Ana is a lable, it's not me.

2) No, I could neither find anywhere in the body nor in the mind where I reside,.
However, as I sat with this, a memory popped up reminding me how uncomfortable it can feel when the body is in danger. I once cut my thumb badly so that I feared that it was damaged irreversibly. In that moment, and for a while frequently again, 'I' seemed to be in the thumb. I don't know how that goes together with my response from DE right now. Well, I was talking from memory, I'm not in that situation at the moment, so can't really tell. Yet it somehow feels slightly different now that I've seen directly that I don't reside in the body or the mind. If, say, I cut myself again, I probably would still be anxious, but, actually, I could just experience anxiety happening with out identifying with it. Wow! Anyway, I'm speculating here and will need to see for myself.
Last thing to report ist that, although I couldn't find I in the body or the mind, I was also left with a feeling of presence, though it's not I, it's somehow impersonal, yet very much alive.

Much love

Ana

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:24 am

Guten morgen, liebe Ana!

Great DE work happening now, Ana. I'm happy for you.
No, I could neither find anywhere in the body nor in the mind where I reside,.
However, as I sat with this, a memory popped up reminding me how uncomfortable it can feel when the body is in danger. I once cut my thumb badly so that I feared that it was damaged irreversibly. In that moment, and for a while frequently again, 'I' seemed to be in the thumb. I don't know how that goes together with my response from DE right now. Well, I was talking from memory, I'm not in that situation at the moment, so can't really tell. Yet it somehow feels slightly different now that I've seen directly that I don't reside in the body or the mind. If, say, I cut myself again, I probably would still be anxious, but, actually, I could just experience anxiety happening with out identifying with it. Wow! Anyway, I'm speculating here and will need to see for myself.


Question whether this is really true, Ana, that you might be in the injured thumb? What is REALLY noticed in this situation? Its a good example that you have brought up here.

Can you "go through" this example again (cutting the thumb)...but this time, look very very directly at it (not think about it)...just list what is sensed as this situation occurs. Draw on all 5 sensory perceptions and list what appears to be experienced by these five senses (perhaps the sense of smell wont be playing a part here, unless perhaps smelling blood is happening).

Concurrently, list the various thoughts that pass through. Just like making a shopping list or ticking off an inventory, not delving into the content of the individual thought itself. ie thought 1) ....; thought 2) ....

eg...1) "Oh Noooo! I will never be able to work and pay for my rent!"
2)....
Last thing to report ist that, although I couldn't find I in the body or the mind, I was also left with a feeling of presence, though it's not I, it's somehow impersonal, yet very much alive.
Ana, of COURSE there is a feeling of presence that is very very very much alive! This DE work (discovering beliefs and questioning them through DE removes the blocks or barriers to this presence...). So you are right on track...

Looking forward to the results of this next DEing exercise,

Much love,
Shell and T xxx

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jowate
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:52 am

Hi Ana (and Shell)!

I’ve finally managed to catch up with what you’ve both been writing (it’s pretty full-on here, I’ve only managed to get out on my bike once)! Excellent guiding Shell - and I've enjoyed the sub-plot of your work on behalf of the NZ tourist board :)

Ana, I’ve been finding your responses very encouraging, as well as engaging. Actually, I just logged on and found more, but I think what I wrote below is still very much in the direction of what Shell has been pointing to:
The word “I” points to the person that is using this word. It is self referential, pointing to a living body interacting with the world around it through its senses (including thought). Although “I” does feel more personal, it is no more personal than the word “university”, it's just a word or a symbol. Again, although “I” feels more specific it doesn't point to anything specific in the sense of fixed or unchanging. It points to a conglomerate of physical and mental processes.
This is right-on. So if ‘I’ refers to a conglomerate of processes, can you find any actually existing ‘entity’ to which it refers?
  • When the ‘feeling’ of self or selfing arises ... or even ‘selfishness’ ... is an actual ‘I’ to be found, anywhere?

    You could try thinking a ‘me’ thought such as ‘I really want this to happen’ ... or simply notice when such thinking or emoting arises. Can you find an actual self or ‘I’ there when this is happening? What is actually happening?
Love,

T. and Shell

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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:26 am

Dear T. and Shell,

thank you for your encouraging words – somehow I don't dare to think that I might be on the right track, as I'm afraid that this might just boost my ego.

Ah, here we go, T., a kind of selfing thought that you suggested DEing. Let's see. The first thing I realize that I've let myself being drawn into the content of the thought which asserts that there is an ego that can be boosted, but through the last exercise from Shell I already saw that I couldn't find an “I” in my name, nor my body nor my mind. There is a feeling connected with this thought which is of a contracting nature and is located at the throat area. However, looking at this feeling I can only find sensations that make up the experience of a slightly contracted throat, but there is no “ego” or “I” in there – it's just sensations.

This is interesting as this somehow questions the standards, ideals, beliefs or values I hold, in this case that it's 'better to keep the ball flat' to borrow an expression from football. Ooooh, dangerous! So would that mean that all my values had to go out of the window? Looking at it again, I don't think so. What I see is that those values are not “I”, they are ideas suggesting certain standards of behaviour, but that's all. I can take them on or not, in a way it doesn't matter, it's besides the point. Identifying with a thought (or another sensation) seems to create a sense of self, but what is actually happening, to stay with the example of values or beliefs is 'valuing or believing' – no”I” needed for that.

Shell, ironically I pinched my thumb this morning, so had a bit of first hand experience again...

Though I'll decided to stick with the incident when I cut my thumb. Not sure if you meant two separate lists, I just do one

* seeing knife tip slip of the vegetable into the thumb
* hearing the sound this made
* hearing myself scream 'aaaah'
* feeling a short pain
* 'damn, I knew it! I shouldn't have pushed the knife this way!' (thought 1)
* seeing blood dripping
* 'I need some kitchen towel'(thought 2)
* 'damn it!'(thought 3)
* 'I don't dare looking at it, I just hope I didn't damage the joint'(thought 4)
* seeing more red on the kitchen towel
* ' oh I don't dare looking at it, I might not be able to use it anymore'(thought 5)
* 'I need my thumb! Without it, I won't be able to work with my hand as before'(thought 6)
* 'can I move it?'(thought 7)
* seeing the kitchen towel bend and stretch
* feeling some pain in the thumb
* sense of relief
* 'let's just hope it'll heal ok, I need my thumb.'(thought 8)

Looking at this list, I can't say that I was in the thumb. All the sensations and thoughts I experienced in that instance were concentrated around the thumb. However, fearing to loose the thumb as it was, I seem to regard it as 'mine' or 'part of me' - which is just another thought, it's not “I”.

I got a bit interrupted when doing this post, but that's it for today.
Much love und tschüss

Ana

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Shell
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Shell » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:17 pm

Hello dear Ana,

Good DE work. Thank you.
Looking at this list, I can't say that I was in the thumb. All the sensations and thoughts I experienced in that instance were concentrated around the thumb. However, fearing to loose the thumb as it was, I seem to regard it as 'mine' or 'part of me' - which is just another thought, it's not “I”.
Yes, Ana...just another thought....just another cloud passing by...has nothing to do with what you Are. Or does it? Keep DEing this way, Ana.

Ana, do you control the thoughts that appear? Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Much love,

Shell xxx (and T, who Im sure will pop in to respond to your answers soonest)

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jowate
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby jowate » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:11 am

Dear Ana,
Ah, here we go, T., a kind of selfing thought that you suggested DEing. Let's see. The first thing I realize that I've let myself being drawn into the content of the thought which asserts that there is an ego that can be boosted, but through the last exercise from Shell I already saw that I couldn't find an “I” in my name, nor my body nor my mind. There is a feeling connected with this thought which is of a contracting nature and is located at the throat area. However, looking at this feeling I can only find sensations that make up the experience of a slightly contracted throat, but there is no “ego” or “I” in there – it's just sensations


Good observation there - just a thought, and some sensations, no ‘ego’. Notice in direct experience that thoughts are also just sensations – a certain kind of mental sensation with conceptual content. When the thought “that was ego boosting” comes up, notice directly that it’s nothing other than an thought-sensation labelling a previous thought-sensation.

Notice, again in direct experience, that all ‘I’ thoughts only seem to be ‘self’ because of this kind of labelling – it’s like a little ‘sub-thought’ that is easy not to notice as just another thought, so habitual is it to ‘believe’ it.
This is interesting as this somehow questions the standards, ideals, beliefs or values I hold, in this case that it's 'better to keep the ball flat' to borrow an expression from football. Ooooh, dangerous! So would that mean that all my values had to go out of the window? Looking at it again, I don't think so. What I see is that those values are not “I”, they are ideas suggesting certain standards of behaviour, but that's all. I can take them on or not, in a way it doesn't matter, it's besides the point. Identifying with a thought (or another sensation) seems to create a sense of self, but what is actually happening, to stay with the example of values or beliefs is 'valuing or believing' – no”I” needed for that.


Yes, you don’t need to be concerned about ‘values’ in this direct enquiry / looking process. Once you’ve ‘gateless gated’ it will become clear, but at this point it’s a distraction.

Anyway, you can well do the direct experience enquiry I’ve suggested above in conjunction with those just suggested by Shell – they should work well together. You’re doing well!

Love, T. and Shell

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Ana
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Re: Thread for Ana

Postby Ana » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:57 am

Dear Shell and T.,

Do I control the thoughts that appear? Am I the thinker of thoughts?

In addition to this I re-read what I had written on 3rd January in order to review it in this DE as well:
Thoughts come and go, like everything else, though they can be so tempting to identify with. Looking at this I realize that I have no control over them really. They are not mine, and even though most of the time I assume I can, I can't make them happen. I don't know where they come from or where they go. Most of them seem to arise on their own accord without any evident reason or context. When I'm thinking about something, most of the time this means some form of indulgence in thoughts and concepts and the emotional element that so often seems to be connected with them, being caught up with their (literal or emotional) content rather than what they might be pointing towards – this way only more 'selfing' is happening. DE seems to subside conceptual thinking. And describing what one is seeing involves a reverse process of finding words to point at the seen.
Looking at this again, it feels that I can keep it shorter now and say that I'm not the thinker of my thoughts and that I have no control. Stating that so bluntly feels quite sobering, it throws up further questions about decision-making, will, etc.? What sems to be dawning on me is that this whole concept of self, be it fixed or changing, permanent or transient, that this in itself is just a thought - things just happen, no "I" or "self" needed for that. However, what I'm still left with is this sense of presence, that I mentioned the other day, a sense of presence of aliveness that is not "I" and yet is me.

T., I will reply to your post later. It's bedtime for me now.
Much love

Ana


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