requesting jowate

[Budo]

Ok, so looking without any need to identify it as 'me'...? Indeed how can a thought look/ Maybe as a question ? That is a question .
I sense some change but it is impossible to describe.

I'm glad that you think i'm doing well.

This is such a new kind of enquiry......wonderful !

[jowate]

You are!

Keep 'observing' thoughts, the process of thinking, mental activities in general.

They just arise, there is no 'self' doing them, just a sub-thought after the event 'I' 'me' 'mine'.

So look: is that the case really - can you see directly that this is the case?

Thoughts aren't aware of anything; they are just objects arising in awareness.

Can you see directly that this is the case?

Keep up the enquiry - focus is the key!

[Budo]

maybe it's lack of focus?

So yes I see the thing about sub-thoughts, In the moment it's altogether 'bigger' than a thought.

There really is no 'self' doing the thinking ! Fear arises.... I can see why people don't want too look too closley at this stuff....which of course is just another thought !

I'm off now for a couple of days so will have more free time for reflection.

[jowate]

Good one. Ok, keep with the questions above over the weekend and let me know your findings when you get back to a computer.

[Budo]

I'm almost in tears, this is SO amazing!
No-self...'I' want to go and shake everyone! LOL.
Thank you.

[jowate]

Great! Do you want to say any more about that? Is the 'self-view' gone / seen through? Is there anything at all to which 'self' or 'I' etc. applies? Was there ever?

[Budo]

So ..."Is the 'self-view' gone/seen through?"....hard to say....there has been a dramatic shift of perspective, more than an altered state.
"is there anything at all to which 'self' or 'I' etc applies? ...again everything seems SO different... like life is doing me...if that makes sense.
"Was there ever?".......sure wish I knew?

[jowate]

Good stuff! 'Life doing me' ... yes, that definitely sounds like what we're looking for.

Can you say what exactly that 'dramatic shift of perspective' is & how it differs from an 'altered state'?

[Budo]

So the dramatic shift of perspective...everything has opened up, as if anything could happen. There is a continuing sense of unfolding, a sort of surrender to the awakening as it unfolds. Dukkha still perfumes things but a profound anxiety has gone. In the past altered states were blissfull and seemed real at the time, with time of course it went , transient gone. What is happening now is much more open , really open.
I sense that this is possibly a change that goes deeper.

[Budo]

Exactly what the dramatic shift of perspective is...it feels 'total',a radical change of how things present themselves.
It's not easy to convey the emphatic way that my inner experience has expanded.

It's like my mind just got clear like never before.

Obstacles (If there are any) seem to have dissolved.

[jowate]

Hi Dharmavira,

So the dramatic shift of perspective...everything has opened up, as if anything could happen. There is a continuing sense of unfolding, a sort of surrender to the awakening as it unfolds. Dukkha still perfumes things but a profound anxiety has gone. In the past altered states were blissfull and seemed real at the time, with time of course it went , transient gone. What is happening now is much more open , really open.

This looks very promising – you’re doing well! So, ‘altered states’ are always temporary experiences, whereas ‘the gate’ is not an experience, more, it’s a direct irreversible knowing that ‘self’ is nothing but a story which thoughts are constantly telling themselves. Outside of this – and in fact ‘in’ this as well – there is no separate ‘self’. And just to be clear, there is no non-separate ‘self’ either!

So when you say

What is happening now is much more open , really open.

I’m taking it that you mean ‘bound-less’ – open in the sense of non separation. Is that what you mean, or something different?

Exactly what the dramatic shift of perspective is...it feels 'total', a radical change of how things present themselves.
It's not easy to convey the emphatic way that my inner experience has expanded.

It's like my mind just got clear like never before.

Obstacles (If there are any) seem to have dissolved.

Again, excellent! A radical shift of perspective is what we’re looking for (a ‘turning about’). I’m also interested to hear some more detail about what ‘Obstacles (If there are any) seem to have dissolved’ involves. If you have actually gone through the gate, what you write here suggests what I’d expect to see, but I need some more description to be sure.

Keep up the good work!

T.

[Budo]

Bound-less could be a good word for it or emptyness in an almost paradoxical 'full' sort of way.
Non-separation seems to whats happening.
I am trying to describe whats happening...sights present themselves,sounds likewise etc,the thoughts roll on breathing sensations everything continueing along with the occasional sense of opening in the centre of my body an unfolding expanding sense.
I'm in it and theres no way out.
as for 'obstactles' dissolving,not just the hinderances ..there is no separation....there is really no self.
I'll try to describe more.
My conciousness is immediate, sense impressions continue, everything is just how it is,real but ephemeral.
I feel very emotional.

[jowate]

It's looking good. One query:

I'm in it and theres no way out.

Could you expand on this a bit? - I assume you don't exactly mean 'I'm in it' ... I get a sense of what you're saying here but it could do with clarification.

[Budo]

No 'I' don't mean 'I'm' in it.
The experience it total,complete,whole,everything is contained in the present moment...not there really is a present moment...it's all flow.

[jowate]

It looks to me that you've 'seen the point'. Are there any doubts?

Next thing (assuming not doubts - and I'm happy to continue until you are sure) is that I post a set of questions that I and other guides will use for confirmation. That means that other guides will review the thread and 'confirmation questions' and either suggest further questions, or confirm that you've passed the 'gateless gate'.

So - as I say - any doubts or questions?