seperation sucks

[Anja]

It is also an illusion that you are in control of the situation.
What feelings appear when you read this?


I can feel the contraction in the body – the areas which get tense when there is a „control issue“ - the body does not feel entirely relaxed at this message. In the past I have many a times at the point of „being powerless“, a complete breakdown of this „system“ which forced a letting go and going slower in life. Until „I speed up again“ and it is bang again forced to fail. Yet I am still a big believer of control, loosing this „faith“ will cost me my membership as part of the root family, let alone being part of this society.

Fact is, I am part of this family and I am part of this society. And there are times when I notice I get stressed, I remind myself that I have no control and out of that state of relaxation action happens.

I am getting the impression, waht I am writing is a mix of experience and teaching. Story, Story Story, thinking, not getting to the point... of looking

I am noticing thoughts of defense and I am letting them pass by..

and then „oh well, if there is nothing I can do, then RIGHT NOW there is nothing to do, not even „a believing that has to happen. Just noticing what happens. … Feeling relaxed..

Just witnessing what happens next – kinda nice.. not worrying that nothing will get done (because it will or it will not, there is no control over that). That way the day's events will be a surprise!

Is there a „witnesser“? As soon as this idea of a doer comes up, the whole relaxation is destroyed. It's wonderful without a „doer“ - it takes all the stress away. Nothing to „stick“ something on. No doer, no blame – resulting in „just is“. I recall a situation last night, my friend „doing some odd things“ - the idea of there being „ a doer“ brings me stress and seperates me from him. The „I“ Illusion shows itself strongly in the way i perceive and judge others, sometimes I notice it strongly .. „why on earth did she do that?“ „she must be stupid“ and thinks like that“ (most promiment belief system in my family).

With there being no „doer“ - this automatically reduces my stress about „others“. If this „one“ cannot control it's actions, then the others cannot either and this brings compassion and „oneness“.

Good to know/to be reminded.

I practised just to wait and see what happens... and something happens, or not. Currently the mind keeps reminding me to „take charge of certain things“ - and I will only know when to „do it“ when I do it – how else is this possible, if there is no doer?

Who is writing this?

Thoughts are revolting against this notion! (do not let „them“ take control of you – they will, if you give up your sovereignty..) .. this thought is no longer causing stress, because I have experienced life without a „doer“ - and i prefer that!

Reading your text again, I take a deep breath and relax.

The „nothing will get done“ thought is an old one and also does not „rock my boat“ anymore. „With control nothing will get done“ is much truer.

Do you see „no doer“ in every moment?
„Once you see it you cannot unsee it“

seems to suggest that – wow to be living that way all the time.....

[Jorge786]

Hi Anja

Look, who is part of that family?, who is part of this society?... stop... you do not exist, and therefore no one is in control of what happens, not even your brain. Who is the one in control of what happens?, when a need arises (eg hunger or thirst) then happen to drive the mechanisms to meet that need, but everything works as a mechanism, look who is taken the glass, look who is walking, look who is moving the finger, the hand, look at your hand, it's your hand?, it's belongs to you?.

This is not about to be more relaxed and have better feelings, this is about ending illusion of "self". this is not about putting on a ramble about "it" may be.
It's "look" deeply if there is an "I"
If there is a "doer"
If the past exists, or if there is a future.

Look again ... who are you?, your senses? your body?, your memory?, analyze that one at a time, If you are anything of those things, then when you lose a sense or part of your body would also have to lose some of your "I", or not?

If there is a witness, there is also a observed?, This would mean that two things and they are not, there is only one in multiple forms, if there is no "I" in here, there's nothing more... just one thing.

Once you saw Santa does not exist, all the discussions about whether ... drink milk or not, wears red or green, has a wife or live alone ... and all other discussions ... these ... are finished

best wishes
Jorge

[Anja]

I do not know what to write at the moment - very exhaustet at looking - resisting (anger, frustration) - there is no point in discussing - I just have to look deeper (then I feel under pressure "to perform" - then there is resistance "if control is an illusion how can I look". Sadness @ "there is no hope for me". The most honest answer I can come up with to all these questions is: I do not know. Sorry, Jorge, I am very confused at the moment...

[Jorge786]

Hi Anja, I understand you, believe me.

Be confused... hmmmmmm. I think that's good,
someone told me at some point... "Hang on!!!"

Come back when you feel better

Love
Jorge

[Anja]

Hi Jorge,

thank you for bearing with me. I had a great day watching the early sunrise on a mountain top and afterwards a day at the Sauna (Ilona said this is where the shift happened). It helped me relax and keep investitigating. I have been pushing myself too much, making this something to achieve originating from this superiority thing that I told you in my first post... a lot of thoughts turned up.

You said to ask

„what is the thought that makes you sad?/Why are you afraid?

I am familiar with this as part of the work of Byron Katie. A turnaround „happened“ which helped me see the truth and set me free of my anger and frustration.

You also suggested:

What gives you worth?

I am not sure what this means. Can you explain?

Here are the results of yesterdays and todays looking:

Whenever this word „who“ turns up, there is confusion – I felt the confusion and resistance very strongly yesterday. The whole question somehow did not make sense.
So here is my best shot at it:

Look, who is part of that family?

right now none exists
or..
„who“?

who is part of this society?

- irrelevant in this moment

... stop... you do not exist, and therefore no one is in control of what happens, not even your brain.Who is the one in control of what happens?

I do not know
maybe the body controls the body
thoughts have an impact on the body
I cannot find an „overall ruler“

when a need arises (eg hunger or thirst) then happen to drive the mechanisms to meet that need, but everything works as a mechanism, look who is taken the glass, look who is walking, look who is moving the finger, the hand, look at your hand, it's your hand?, it belongs to you?.

Again, it is weired, but the question "who" seem so irrelevant. So there is a hand, why does it have to belong to anyone? comes up.

It's "look" deeply if there is an "I"

- a what?

If there is a "doer"

- what is that?

If the past exists, or if there is a future.

believing reports about, memories and fotos there would be a past – but right now, no past.
the future, which is now, feels ok, just like the past, or the present.

Look again ... who are you?

- there is no "who" - so this question seems irrelevant

your senses?

- there are senses, but no owner

your body?

- there is a body

your memory?

- memories /thoughts exist, I cannot see any owner

If you are anything of those things, then when you lose a sense or part of your body would also have to lose some of your "I", or not?

Cannot follow this -

there is only one in multiple forms

wow - love it. This accompanied me today and it was great observing "the others" under that premise.

if there is no "I" in here, there's nothing more... just one thing.

need more time with this.. and the mind will not grasp it, I guess. I will have to wait to see it again.

Once you saw Santa does not exist, all the discussions about whether ... drink milk or not, wears red or green, has a wife or live alone ... and all other discussions ... these ... are finished

yes, I have had moments where this has been true.
And then again I am right back in it sorting thru „Santas“ - wasting my time and energy with fiction.

Oh yes: a prominent thought has been: it is only logic for there to be a doer!
Well, Jorge, now you know ;-))

Feeling more relaxed,
Anja

BTW: Is it ok for me to continue reading in „gateless gatecrashers“ - or shall I continue be completely „sober“ about readings, inputs?
I have noticed how much I have been an „input junkie“ - always listening or reading something about non-duality etc.
I would understand if you said no, because of course, these days are exclusive for looking directly... ? Yes?

[Jorge786]

I'm glad you had a good day and also glad to see you've done a great job investigating.

I have been pushing myself too much, making this something to Achieve Originating From this superiority thing ...

Already you realized, the truth is that there is nothing to achieve, you're already here, you're already in the perfect present, nothing to achieve, nowhere to go, it's more about "removing" something to get something

What gives you worth?
I am not sure what this means. Can you explain?

Do you feel affliction?, If so, what causes it and who is affected?, Can you investigate that?.

Many of the answers you have given below in your post come from a person who has seen something, can you explain what you saw?

Come to this first
and then I would like to see the issue of "doer" you mention.

I prefer you to focus on this and avoid readings, if you feel pressure just sit for a few minutes with your eyes closed, "perceives" the environment, hear, feel calmly what happens around you and feel your body

Best wishes
Jorge

PD: if you think something is not clear enough about what I write, let me know (do not say "all"... please)

[Anja]

Hi Jorge,

it's so amazing to have you doing this with me!

What gives you worth?
I am not sure what this means. Can you explain?
Do you feel affliction?, If so, what causes it and who is affected?, Can you investigate that?.

Ah, yes, I get it.

Many of the answers you have given below in your post come from a person who has seen something, can you explain what you saw?

Actually I was afraid to give those answers, but then decided to really be honest and those answers felt most honest. For once I wanted to literally write uncensored and not have a motive of pleasing, doing it right, or a "I will look like a .. if I write this".

Ok, so I will try to explain what I saw:

It's like an „at the end of the day“ - there is always THIS – it all comes down to THIS.

Who is the one in control of what happens?

Looking results in Feelings of excitement and amusement. It is FEELINGS mainly, I see – it is hard to describe – an easy and simple life without this „error of perception“ - without a story.
Originally this question stressed me (the mind?) - now I read it and I love it, it's like a „complete joke in one sentence“.

When I scrolled up to read „who are you?“ - I burst out laughing and wiping away my tears.

„Is there an I?“

now this one is making me curious. After a while I notice a pressure rising in the body – a sadness? - a grieving perhaps? Then I look and cannot find the „I“ - only those sensations..

Senses/Body/memories – I read these words with more „distance“ - they are delightful to read, but I guess, there is less „attachment“??

a little „rainy showerfront“ (right word?) just happened – clearly identifying the root thought that causes so much of my suffering in the past „I am not good enough“ - it passed thru without delay ;-))

Sorry, not much explaining yet of what I saw.
I will come back to the „doer“, past or future in my next post and try to explain more.

I prefer you to focus on this and avoid readings, if you feel pressure just sit for a few minutes with your eyes closed, "perceives" the environment, hear, feel calmly what happens around you and feel your body

Perfect, that feels just right! Thank you.

Generally today:
There are still thoughts that feel true and „heavily attached“ and then I had some entertaining thoughts, where I had to laugh instantly as I could see an „I“ story claiming ownership!

It's really a funny thing this „I“ claiming ownership.

PD: if you think something is not clear enough about what I write, let me know (do not say "all"... please)

Strike! Well done, for a while you were really pointing at a „me“ ;-))
This comment helped to really bring the above mentioned dearly held belief to the surface. Thank you again.

Love, Anja

[Anja]

Hi Jorge,

just missed “checking in” for the “31stDec”. I went to rest and look with pains in head and abdomen, fell asleep and woke up by all the fireworks etc at midnight!

My day started and continued much throughout the day with “outbursts” of laughter and joy. I heard the pastor on the radio briefly speaking about “forgiving the other” and I could not comprehend who should forgive who.
I had a thought about my sister-in-law “she is arrogant” and next thing the “doing” disappeared and with it the “you(-ing?)”.

There were a few other things that I wrote down this morning, but I do not feel confident to write this now.

Is this “my” body?, my “pain”?

Just this for now, love,
Anja

[Jorge786]

Hi Anja, I've been a little busy today.

answer your post tomorrow more extensively.

The "states" of the mind, are just that, are temporary and unimportant, but in my view they can be the result of seeing something.
seems that something is changing
Can you watch without labeling things?

thoughts arising about one thing or another are just that, some thoughts.

pain, laughter, joy, these things happen, just happen, this does not happen to "you"

see you,
enjoy!
Jorge

[Anja]

Hi Jorge,

I had a long post written about my experiences thruout the day when I realized a resistance and all of a sudden it appeared all like a story, very tiring, analysing.
When instead I can be experiencing „this“ moment – giving me a hint of excitment.

Watching without labeling appears to happen, especially in nature. Sometimes with people and it is a lovely experience of „not being there“ - „not having to do something“ - just watching if „this SHE says something or takes action“.

Looking forward to your post,
Love, Anja

[Jorge786]

I see you in line at the moment, how you doing?

[Jorge786]

Generally today:
There are still thoughts That feel true and "heavily attached" and then I had some entertaining thoughts, where I had to laugh as I could instantly see an "I" Claiming ownership story!

It's really a funny thing this "I" Claiming ownership.

This happened a couple of days ago, how you are seeing now, the thoughts are still feeling "heavily attached"?.
The thoughts are often a fun, is like a funny friend who was saying, and at some point may seem real, but simply do not own and do not necessarily reflect reality.
carefully observe your thoughts, can you control them?, can you know what the next thought?, can you decide what to think for several minutes?, No? then why do you think those thoughts are you or part of you?

Watching without labeling appears to happen, Especially in nature. With people and Sometimes it is a lovely experience of "not being there" - "not having to do something" - just watching if "this SHE says something or takes action".

Yes, I know that feeling of "not being there", is a bit strange, no?, But you know you're not there, now complicate; (seems that I love to complicate things), who is "not there", is that a "not-me"?, how your perceives what is "not there"?

Love
Jorge

[Anja]

Hi Jorge,

this morning waking up there was this experience of „can I really let go of this?“ and a „yes“ happened – a confirmation – all of this more like a feeling in the body. Then some stories started, and I noticed the mind „reaching out“ or „grasping“ wanting to work on it/analyse, but it collapsed or rather there was nothing to grab anymore. That is when „it is an illusion that you are in control“ popped up again and it somehow had a different quality of „pointing“. When stories collapse, this „there is nothing to do“ happens – a peaceful feeling – i felt it particularly strongly on saturday, I could have quite easily just sat on a park bench all day...

Thoughts have not been „heavily“ attached since then, however there has been a subtle sadness – a grieving? - over why „I fell for this all this time“ and I notice how again the I is claiming. Funny thing this „ how could „I“ not notice that „I“ do not exist?“. Yes, this „I“ friend certainly has a sense of humour.

Maybe what is happening is some kind of gradual process? It appears that way. Gradual, gentle. The „I“ has been wanting it to be fast and radical (remember it wanted a „terminator“?)

The thought „I do not want to be hurt“ just happened and a sensation which I have learned to be sadness. „People can hurt me“ - another story. It caused a bit of heaviness and holding my breath/contraction. It appears to be easing now.
Like a short but „intense“ rain shower. The thought happened, No other thoughts feeding into it, making it a bigger story, getting entangled.

carefully observe your thoughts, can you control them?, can you know what the next thought?, can you decide what to think for several minutes?,

There is no „I“ or „you“ here to control. I cannot find an observer or controler, knower of the next thought, or decider what to think for the next several minutes.

No? then why do you think those thoughts are you or part of you?

Good question. First reaction: all these “you's” are very confusing because I cannot find where they are pointing to/at. And then something does grab my attention here and I should like to spend some time with this..

Yes, I know that feeling of "not being there", is a bit strange, no?

Yes- indeed. Do you have it all/most of the time?
When it happened the last time – I had to laugh because I have always been wishing to be “invisible” so I had to giggle that this wish sort of came true ;-)
Maybe “this place” can be called “perfect emptiness” - what do you think?

But you know you're not there, now complicate; (seems that I love to complicate things), who is "not there", is that a "not-me"?, how your perceives what is "not there"?

Yes, this is my experience too that the “I just loves to complicate things” ;-))

Love your question and really made me laugh, the “not-me's” etc. There is no “who” - no “not-me”, no nothing.
Same with “not-there”.

I have sat with the last question a while longer, initially I would embark on going into the question, but it really does not make any sense making a story of this and making the “not-there” another entity. And yet, if you are referring to the “absence”, then it is what we talked about above.

Thank you, Jorge, I love your questions and will look at the:

No? then why do you think those thoughts are you or part of you?

some more today...

Love,
Anja

[Anja]

More on

carefully observe your thoughts, can you control them?, can you know what the next thought?, can you decide what to think for several minutes?, No? then why do you think those thoughts are you or part of you?

Thoughts cannot be part of a “me”, because there is no “me”.
So thoughts just are.
That they have an origin, or belong to “someone” is just another story, that I have never questioned. Since there is no “I” - all that is left are “thoughts”. Maybe life needs “subtitles” I don't know... ;-))

Appreciate another question on this if you have one. This is not so clear for some reason.

[Jorge786]

Anja Hello!, I'm glad find you within the Emptiness, (despite you were never elsewhere ;-) ).

The "I" and "you" are only conventions that we do to communicate because the common language works differently and it would be too long and confusing express without using these pronouns.
it's a bit difficult to maintain looking when one is talking about this subject in that way.

The mind tends to analyze, label and store, that is their job, let it do its function, that is not you;
As an exercise: silently watches what it says, do not interfere or think that are your words, "you" are not thinking, your brain is emitting some thoughts, think calmly about it (I know... it's a paradox), watch the thoughts as they appear (as watching TV, LOL).
You say it was stronger on Saturday, is correct, that the sense of "non-being" can be stronger at a time and very weak in others, it is normal, especially at the beginning, please do not worry, just look.

Maybe what is happening is some kind of gradual process?

Yes, there are all the cases as I know, but at one point you can see with certainty that there is no "I".

Maybe "this place" can be called "perfect emptiness" - what do you think?

oh yes!, that seem a "Perfect name" to me

but it really does not make any sense making a story of this and making the “not-there” another entity

right!, nothing, nada, zero, but I wonder, what about "everything"? what do you think? (remember we love complicate things)

Ok!... lets go... go outside... can you?... take a walk, pay attention to every step you take, pay attention to how your body moves, your arms... before each step, is anyone there ordering to take the step?
looks at other people, seem to have an "I"?


well... as you want, I can put the last questions of rigor

Best wishes
Jorge