Is there something anterior to the I?

[kvotski]

Hi Sunil,

Nice work. So who or what decided which flute to pick up?

With best wishes,
John

There is a thought that jumps in with " I did" but that's it. No tail behind this I, no roots no history just an empty claim. Pure b.s. No one did. It just seemed like the thing to do, right or wrong, foolish or wise.

There is a sadness creeping in with overwhelming loneliness as most connections appear false. With holiday season here, the gatherings threaten to be so fake.

A doubt rises based on previous studies. What if the things like touch, hearing or seeing as the tools to identify reality are really an illusion and what if this is indeed happening in a dream by some one who is the real I. Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it isn't there?

So this is it? Carry on this fake but tactile life until death claims the body and all goes whoosh? So sad.

Thanks John. Really appreciate your guidance.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Sunil,

Hi Sunil,

Nice work. So who or what decided which flute to pick up?

With best wishes,
John

There is a thought that jumps in with " I did" but that's it. No tail behind this I, no roots no history just an empty claim. Pure b.s. No one did. It just seemed like the thing to do, right or wrong, foolish or wise.

There is a sadness creeping in with overwhelming loneliness as most connections appear false. With holiday season here, the gatherings threaten to be so fake.

A doubt rises based on previous studies. What if the things like touch, hearing or seeing as the tools to identify reality are really an illusion and what if this is indeed happening in a dream by some one who is the real I. Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it isn't there?

So this is it? Carry on this fake but tactile life until death claims the body and all goes whoosh? So sad.

Thanks John. Really appreciate your guidance.

Understand the sadness reaction, but look closely at the ideas of things being "fake" and "false". Take a good close look and see that these too are ideas/thoughts.

So what is left when it's neither "true" nor "false", "fake" nor "real"?

How can life be "fake" other than in a thought?

You got it spot on when you said, "most connections appear false". Appearances are deceptive sometimes when taken to be real.

Check this out and share what comes up.

With best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

what is left when it's neither "true" nor "false", "fake" nor "real"?

How can life be "fake" other than in a thought?

You got it spot on when you said, "most connections appear false". Appearances are deceptive sometimes when taken to be real.]

True or false, fake or real, all labels put by a nonexistent I. No I, no labels. Without these labels, there is no question of sadness but neither is there happiness.

It turns out I may have set up expectation that finding truth will somehow help me sort out life's problems. Coming to realize that truth may have nothing to do with mind games of win lose, fake and true. The I who set up these expectations is m.i.a. Kind of like Santa this Xmas. This will take a little more gestation.

Would it be okay if I review some of the u tubes of people who have gone through the process?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Sunil,

what is left when it's neither "true" nor "false", "fake" nor "real"?

How can life be "fake" other than in a thought?

You got it spot on when you said, "most connections appear false". Appearances are deceptive sometimes when taken to be real.]

True or false, fake or real, all labels put by a nonexistent I. No I, no labels. Without these labels, there is no question of sadness but neither is there happiness.

It turns out I may have set up expectation that finding truth will somehow help me sort out life's problems. Coming to realize that truth may have nothing to do with mind games of win lose, fake and true. The I who set up these expectations is m.i.a. Kind of like Santa this Xmas. This will take a little more gestation.

Would it be okay if I review some of the u tubes of people who have gone through the process?

Sure Sunil. Feel free to make comments, ask questions as you go along. We're walking along here together. :)

With warm wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Hi John:

Big struggle inside that these millions of pages and thousands of years of spiritual search is aimed at a simple recognition that I is only a bunch of thoughts. A disbelief that perhaps the mind hasn't dug deep enough.

What about the score of reports even now by people who experience pops, visions in the sleep, kundalini awakening? Another thought comes up in defence of the simplicity that is here and that is most of what is reported is experienced by the body and mind with little to do with finding the truth which is simple no I.

The false self really feels let down as it is I who brought us to this point just to find out that it is I who doesn't exist.

I wish I did have questions but I keep coming up with answers based on this understanding. Is it just this simple? No bells , no whistles? Perhaps the experience depends upon the background charges of the individual. Had Sunil been in some real pain, this would definitely be an incredible relief almost as a pop.

Thanks again. this is good stuff.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

Hi John:

Big struggle inside that these millions of pages and thousands of years of spiritual search is aimed at a simple recognition that I is only a bunch of thoughts. A disbelief that perhaps the mind hasn't dug deep enough.

Tell me about it. :D

One day, a young monk came by to pay homage, saying, "I beg you, Master, to show your compassion and lead me to the Dharma Gate of liberation." "Who has bound you?" asked Seng-ts'an. "Nobody has bound me." answered the monk. "That being the case," said the master, "why should you continue to seek for liberation?"


So yes, the same basic seeing has been going for a while. And this is a first step, a beginning, but let us continue a while and see what else awaits to be seen. :)

What about the score of reports even now by people who experience pops, visions in the sleep, kundalini awakening? Another thought comes up in defence of the simplicity that is here and that is most of what is reported is experienced by the body and mind with little to do with finding the truth which is simple no I.

There are so many variations on this. Some see in one big bang. We did a little survey at Liberation Unleashed and, from memory, it was about half and half on the "bells & whistles" front. Many continued to see more and more as the obstacles to seeing, which the "I" story brings, falls away.

The false self really feels let down as it is I who brought us to this point just to find out that it is I who doesn't exist.

You see the story there about the "I" story bringing you to this point. Was that really the case? Have a good look.

I wish I did have questions but I keep coming up with answers based on this understanding. Is it just this simple? No bells , no whistles? Perhaps the experience depends upon the background charges of the individual. Had Sunil been in some real pain, this would definitely be an incredible relief almost as a pop.

All is commentary. :)

Let's explore here and now.

Close the eyes and check, if there anyone to think thoughts, are thoughts showing up to anyone?
Close the eyes and sense any separation between you and life, life and you.

Open the eyes and notice any subtle sense of separation, any sense of a you looking, a you over here and the world/objects over there. If there, look deeply at what this "sense of separation" is made of. Likely it's a subtle feeling/sensation. Acknowledge that and "look at it" clearly till it's completely seen through, formless and form.

When Sunil is gone, what's left?

WIth best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

[Close the eyes and check, if there anyone to think thoughts, are thoughts showing up to anyone?
Close the eyes and sense any separation between you and life, life and you.

Open the eyes and notice any subtle sense of separation, any sense of a you looking, a you over here and the world/objects over there. If there, look deeply at what this "sense of separation" is made of. Likely it's a subtle feeling/sensation. Acknowledge that and "look at it" clearly till it's completely seen through, formless and form.

Ok, so not sure what I say here is a thought, an experience or both. There is no thinker here. Sunil as a thought is denied existence as soon as it wants in. Since there is no I how can there be a separation. Life is just feelings, sensations and thoughts happening continuously with occasional attempts by me to take ownership and then denied internally for the foolish attempt.

I will have to work on this sense of separation. Eyes are still very powerfully real and lasting. Touch and thoughts and most other senses have no sustenance, they come and vanish. Vision too when I close the eyes but it is so real and separating. Will Report when I find something.

What seems to be left after Sunil is gone, is a bunch of thoughts, feelings and sensations most of which come and go, day and night, lots of dreams which seem real, but open eyes feel separate.

Thank you John. You are really very helping.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

[Close the eyes and check, if there anyone to think thoughts, are thoughts showing up to anyone?
Close the eyes and sense any separation between you and life, life and you.

Open the eyes and notice any subtle sense of separation, any sense of a you looking, a you over here and the world/objects over there. If there, look deeply at what this "sense of separation" is made of. Likely it's a subtle feeling/sensation. Acknowledge that and "look at it" clearly till it's completely seen through, formless and form.

Ok, so not sure what I say here is a thought, an experience or both. There is no thinker here. Sunil as a thought is denied existence as soon as it wants in. Since there is no I how can there be a separation. Life is just feelings, sensations and thoughts happening continuously with occasional attempts by me to take ownership and then denied internally for the foolish attempt.

I will have to work on this sense of separation. Eyes are still very powerfully real and lasting. Touch and thoughts and most other senses have no sustenance, they come and vanish. Vision too when I close the eyes but it is so real and separating. Will Report when I find something.

What seems to be left after Sunil is gone, is a bunch of thoughts, feelings and sensations most of which come and go, day and night, lots of dreams which seem real, but open eyes feel separate.

Thank you John. You are really very helping.

As you say, eyes and what is seen can seem a powerful separation. Me-in-here, the world-out-there.

Imagine a world without names. Imagine you didn't know the name of anything at all, nothing. Look around at what is seen when you don't know the name of anything at all. All unknown, unknowing.

Have a play...share what shows up.

With best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Hi John

Unknowing is still un reachable. Tried many tricks like quick flutter of eye lids, sleep yoga. All I got is more lucid dreams. Feels like very close but may be trying too hard. Listened to a fellow named Rupert spira, he sounds so much like you. Just wanted to report and maintain my agreement. Will keep trying.

Thanks again.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

Hi John

Unknowing is still un reachable. Tried many tricks like quick flutter of eye lids, sleep yoga. All I got is more lucid dreams. Feels like very close but may be trying too hard. Listened to a fellow named Rupert spira, he sounds so much like you. Just wanted to report and maintain my agreement. Will keep trying.

Thanks again.

You'll notice that there are certain ideas about how this comes about which are subtle assumptions in the background e.g. the assumptions behind "Unknowing is still unreachable".

These assumptions/thoughts/beliefs shape and name the world, form a perception if you like, through which the world is seen.

Each time we notice an assumption/thought, we can acknowledge it and put it to one side. Even to call something "unknowing" can trip us up because it'll never be found. :)

The awareness of looking and the apparent looker are both being explored. Awareness of experiencing, seeing that there is no separate experiencer, only experience. Noticing, for example, that awareness might feel like it's located in/around the body/mind - and yet, we look and cannot find a location for awareness. Have a look and see.

This awareness is always on, and rather than looking for it, it's sitting back and letting it come to you. Sitting back and seeing there is no seer. Sitting back and noticing the appearances just there, given, the sheer givenness of them, here and now.

And then, in awareness, looking for any traces of "Sunil" and acknowledging them and seeing they show up to no-one. And feeling the lightness of that.

In writing this Sunil, it's an expression of a feeling that I hope is coming through. :)

So, sit back, have a play and speak soon.

With warm wishes,
John

[kvotski]

Hi John,

Nothing new but yes, the lightness comes every time I am reoriented towards the calm and peace within which seems synonymous with awareness of everything. If the body stays still, it dissolves along with all its perceptions like touch, smell even thoughts. Sunil is actually activated by external stimuli, my car, my lamp, my chores, my yoga. Stay quiet and he too dissolves.

Oh yes, about the only sense that seems to be always present is the ringing in the ears and breath. I can see why the ancient ones focused on breathing.

Thanks John.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Sunil,

Hi John,

Nothing new but yes, the lightness comes every time I am reoriented towards the calm and peace within which seems synonymous with awareness of everything. If the body stays still, it dissolves along with all its perceptions like touch, smell even thoughts. Sunil is actually activated by external stimuli, my car, my lamp, my chores, my yoga. Stay quiet and he too dissolves.

Oh yes, about the only sense that seems to be always present is the ringing in the ears and breath. I can see why the ancient ones focused on breathing.

Thanks John.

Great. It's often the case, that after seeing through the "I", that the "I" story kind of shifts and retreats into being the one who has seen through itself. So, explore the here and now of experience. Notice any subtle or not so subtle sense of there-being-a-me-seeing-this.

When this subtle "me" is seen, turn the focus on the apparent seer! Who is seeing this? What "me" is seeing this? And sit with the sensation of "me" and ask:

What is it like if this IS me?

What is it like if this IS NOT me?

The approach is to see the residues of self and then turn to the apparent seer, in case the "I" has hidden there. :)

Have fun!

Best wishes,
John

p.s. as we're going over a busy Xmas period here, responses might be a little delayed.

[kvotski]

Hi John,

I hope you had a good Christmas and I wish you the best for 2013.

So, yes there seems to be someone watching the watcher but that one too is made of the same nothing, thoughts.

Few insights have surfaced by drawing back to what is really felt by the body and mind like experiences and feelings. Other than tactile sensations including hearing, touch and smell, feelings are so tied into thoughts. Today it became pretty clear that fear and desires, the cornerstone of much of new age and Buddhism are also just thoughts spurred by a chain of other thoughts. Other than bodily addictions like overheating during Xmas and other consumptions, so much of everything is thought. Watched an apprehension of an upcoming business trip disappear when the nature of this thought became clear. Vision is still a hang up, so fast to label...

Another insight I would like to share is the power of now movement. I could never get why past and future were different from the now. I was assuming that past and future are thoughts and the now isn't. Tolle may have said it but I missed it. All tenses are composed of thoughts. The only and major difference about now is the physical experience. And that's all. Wow...

Thanks John.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Sunil,

Hi John,

I hope you had a good Christmas and I wish you the best for 2013.

And you too! :)

So, yes there seems to be someone watching the watcher but that one too is made of the same nothing, thoughts.

And when the labels "someone", "watching" are taken off, what is the direct experience as best as can be described?

Few insights have surfaced by drawing back to what is really felt by the body and mind like experiences and feelings. Other than tactile sensations including hearing, touch and smell, feelings are so tied into thoughts. Today it became pretty clear that fear and desires, the cornerstone of much of new age and Buddhism are also just thoughts spurred by a chain of other thoughts. Other than bodily addictions like overheating during Xmas and other consumptions, so much of everything is thought. Watched an apprehension of an upcoming business trip disappear when the nature of this thought became clear. Vision is still a hang up, so fast to label...

Excellent to see the thoughts on the business trip come, do it's thing and go and be a thought! As for vision, see that the seer is empty, non-existent, then labelling happens or not, but to no-one - that's the key. Whether labelling happens is not important, it's THAT to which appearances appear.

To what are appearances appearing?

Another insight I would like to share is the power of now movement. I could never get why past and future were different from the now. I was assuming that past and future are thoughts and the now isn't. Tolle may have said it but I missed it. All tenses are composed of thoughts. The only and major difference about now is the physical experience. And that's all. Wow...

:)

WIth best wishes,
John

[kvotski]

[And when the labels "someone", "watching" are taken off, what is the direct experience as best as can be described?

This someone is also just a series of thoughts which wants to claim the I label. Direct experience of this understanding is again fear. Fear that the wolves of the world will hurt the body and mind as I with it's smarts somehow will not be there to protect. All prior personal failures in life are brought forward where the body and mind have suffered. The understanding is tagged as being soft and vulnerable to the vagaries of life. But this too doesn't last as the hollowness of individuality is seen. Thoughts of much harder lives and battles fought by others past and present are put forward as evidence that all of this is a game of ego. There is still a remnant of the need to win or pacify the body. The calm and peace within is quite fleeting. Morning hours after sleep is usually the worse. The lightness is not there John.

To what are appearances appearing?

Almost a physical rewind seems to happen when I realize that the appearance is happening in here not out there. It is a calming sensation inside.

Thank you, John.