Who is it that is aware self is an illusion?

[Neal]

In response, I agree to the extent that I perceive separation as relative, not absolute. However, that isn't intended to mean that the physical body and sense-group is the only or "real" reality.

Is our interaction between our minds here real to you?

[Finoh]

Hi Neal,
You clearly possess an enviable intellect. Awakening though does not rely on the intellect, if it did it would be like setting a simple Maths assignment and with a little study everyone would get through ‘the gate’. You would probably be through by now!

Awakening involves looking at your own direct experience. I would assert that there a numerous instances in your own life when you have had a problem that you were working on and just could not ‘see’ the answer. You might have gone and made a coffee or slept on it (my favourite by the way) and then the answer just appeared. Awakening is like this for most people I know. It happens in an instant and then the thoughts kick in again, "is it this simple, how long will it last” and all sorts of initial doubts.

Once the illusion of the separate ‘I” is seen thorough it is not a case that you will have all the answers but the questions will drop away. So lets drop all this intellectualising and just look and report your direct experiences. Once through the gate you will have a lot of fun with like minded types on the various forums we have.

Direct experience exercise.

What is the “I”, the “self”? Take a look and see if you can find a self. Is it “you” that is thinking? Watch your thoughts, and see if you can find the thinker. Watch your actions, and look for the doer. You will start to realize that thinking is happening on its own, that having control of thoughts is another illusion. Thoughts arise from your mind, which has a lifetime of training in how to think, what is important to pay attention to, as well as all the information from the past and hopes or fears for future, and attention to how others are possibly perceiving you. This large and complex program is running itself. There is no “I” making it happen. Actions arise on their own, too. There is no doer deciding what to do, even though it appears as if there is. Doing happens, walking happens, speaking happens no doer involved. And if there is no self, there is also no other. There is just life in another embodiment, the same life that is expressing itself through you.

Cheers

Ian

[Neal]

Not quite sure what to tell you other than I can control my thoughts, Ian. It's not always easy but I know from my own personal experience that it's not impossible...

What you're proposing seems like a kind of "go with the flow" dissociation. I'm not unfamiliar with dissociation either.

You say there is no doer, no thinker, just actions and thoughts. That would be counter-intuitive to my direct experience. Furthermore, there's a disturbing implication that free will is an illusion; Could you at least give me a straightforward answer to whether you think you have free will or not?

Thanks for reading and I hope I'm not being too difficult here.

[Finoh]

Hi Neal,
First of all you are not being too difficult, in fact we have quite a few who are similar to you and have turned out to be some of our best guides once some of the fear dissipates and 'seeing' occurs.

Could you at least give me a straightforward answer to whether you think you have free will or not?

There is no me to 'have' free will.

I will answer the rest of the post later today, other work beckons.

Cheers

Ian

[Neal]

"There is no me to 'have' free will." So you can't control yourself? Please explain your meaning. Do you make choices or not?

[Finoh]

Hi Neal

Not quite sure what to tell you other than I can control my thoughts, Ian. It's not always easy but I know from my own personal experience that it's not impossible...

What is that I that controls thoughts?
How does it do that?
What thoughts can’t you control?
Why can’t you control these thoughts?

What you're proposing seems like a kind of "go with the flow" dissociation.

No, not at all. I am not proposing anything, I am simply asking you to look in your own direct experience. It is seeing things as they really are without modifying, altering or correcting. It is not seeing things through the filter of the illusory “I”.

You say there is no doer, no thinker, just actions and thoughts.

I say this because I know it to be true and I came to this conclusion by direct experience. Firstly I don’t want you to believe anything I say without first proving it to yourself. The only way of doing this is through direct experience. You can’t get there by using the mind. You seem to have this problem with looking, that is all I want you to do and the rest will take care of itself.

You say there is no doer, no thinker, just actions and thoughts. That would be counter-intuitive to my direct experience.

You haven't looked precisely enough. Intuitive truth is not always true. The earth looks flat but is in fact a sphere.

"There is no me to 'have' free will." So you can't control yourself? Please explain your meaning. Do you make choices or not?

There is no I or me to control there is just life happening and life just takes care of itself. You are under the illusion that you are making decisions and doing stuff.

Pick a number between 1-10 and then tell me if you knew which number was going to show up before it did? And if not, why not?

Finally getting back to business, don't answer from the intellect or memory but from your own direct experience, take your time to sit and just look.
What is the “I”, the “self”? Take a look and see if you can find a self. Is it “you” that is thinking? Watch your thoughts, and see if you can find the thinker. Watch your actions, and look for the doer. You will start to realize that thinking is happening on its own, that having control of thoughts is another illusion. Thoughts arise from your mind, which has a lifetime of training in how to think, what is important to pay attention to, as well as all the information from the past and hopes or fears for future, and attention to how others are possibly perceiving you. This large and complex program is running itself. There is no “I” making it happen. Actions arise on their own, too. There is no doer deciding what to do, even though it appears as if there is. Doing happens, walking happens, speaking happens no doer involved. And if there is no self, there is also no other. There is just life in another embodiment, the same life that is expressing itself through you.

Cheers

Ian

[Neal]

"What is that I that controls thoughts?" My will and awareness.

"How does it do that?" By focusing.

"What thoughts can’t you control?" It's not so much a matter of certain uncontrollable thoughts as it is a matter of choosing how and when to direct and modulate my thinking.

"Why can’t you control these thoughts?" If I let myself, I will naturally free-associate, but I can step in and direct my thought process if I choose. Sometimes I can cease thought entirely and just be, but I can't keep it up very long and eventually start making associations again. I still can observe and direct the associative process if I choose. In that way, I can imagine possibilities, reason, and just generally think on subjects.

That's basically how my thinking works. Sometimes thinking is more reactive and sometimes it's more directed.

How can you say I have no choice in my thinking yet want me to follow this process? Doesn't that contradict your claim that we're all totally on autopilot all the time and just think we're not?

[Finoh]

Hi Neal
It is late here so I am off to bed. I will address your previous post in the morning. In the meantime have a good look at the last part of my previous post. Treat it as though you are an experienced detective and you are looking for the evidence.

What is the “I”, the “self”? Take a look and see if you can find a self. Is it “you” that is thinking? Watch your thoughts, and see if you can find the thinker. Watch your actions, and look for the doer. You will start to realize that thinking is happening on its own, that having control of thoughts is another illusion. Thoughts arise from your mind, which has a lifetime of training in how to think, what is important to pay attention to, as well as all the information from the past and hopes or fears for future, and attention to how others are possibly perceiving you. This large and complex program is running itself. There is no “I” making it happen. Actions arise on their own, too. There is no doer deciding what to do, even though it appears as if there is. Doing happens, walking happens, speaking happens no doer involved. And if there is no self, there is also no other. There is just life in another embodiment, the same life that is expressing itself through you.

If there was no 'I" and no "free will" would that generate fear?

Good night

Ian

[Neal]

I have considered your post again and still disagree. I also don't see how fear is relevant. After all, if there is no free will, then what meaning would there be in asking whether I feel fear about any particular topic or not? In order for it to matter, there would have to be a possibility of either state (fearful or not fearful) that could be changed. If we have no free will, then nothing either of us thinks or feels while conversing together would matter in the slightest.

Do you think criminals should be punished for crimes? Should drug addicts struggle to live clean and sober lives? Why give me exercises to do if you think everything just happens? If it wasn't in my power to voluntarily decide to join and continue reading and following your instructions, then the exercises are pointless hoops to jump through and the process is a charade.

Do I have a choice to continue this or not? Do you?

[Finoh]

Hi Neal,

We have gone off track on this guiding which is my fault.

The purpose of guiding is to get you to the gate and it is up to you to take the final step. It is basically a fairly simple matter, I point which is usually in the form of a question and you look and tell me what you see. It is not what I say or what you think but what you see in your own direct experience that counts. I then look at your answer and see if it is leading you towards the end goal of awakening or leading you away. You are the one that takes all the steps. There is no standard process or format. The direction is determined by how willing you are to look.

Most of the questions that you have are merely leading you away. They are a distraction and only lead to more questions. Once you are through the gate a lot of the questions will just fall away.

From now on if you are still serious about seeking and want to end the search just focus on the looking. You can start with my previous post.

What is the “I”, the “self”? Take a look and see if you can find a self. Is it “you” that is thinking? Watch your thoughts, and see if you can find the thinker. Watch your actions, and look for the doer. You will start to realize that thinking is happening on its own, that having control of thoughts is another illusion. Thoughts arise from your mind, which has a lifetime of training in how to think, what is important to pay attention to, as well as all the information from the past and hopes or fears for future, and attention to how others are possibly perceiving you. This large and complex program is running itself. There is no “I” making it happen. Actions arise on their own, too. There is no doer deciding what to do, even though it appears as if there is. Doing happens, walking happens, speaking happens no doer involved. And if there is no self, there is also no other. There is just life in another embodiment, the same life that is expressing itself through you.

Cheers

Ian

[Neal]

How could it be your fault if there is no you and no free will?

[Finoh]

Neal,

Ha Ha Ha. Speaking relatively of course. Once awakened old habit patterns still pop up but not as often. Anyway have you looked at

What is the “I”, the “self”? Take a look and see if you can find a self. Is it “you” that is thinking? Watch your thoughts, and see if you can find the thinker. Watch your actions, and look for the doer. You will start to realize that thinking is happening on its own, that having control of thoughts is another illusion. Thoughts arise from your mind, which has a lifetime of training in how to think, what is important to pay attention to, as well as all the information from the past and hopes or fears for future, and attention to how others are possibly perceiving you. This large and complex program is running itself. There is no “I” making it happen. Actions arise on their own, too. There is no doer deciding what to do, even though it appears as if there is. Doing happens, walking happens, speaking happens no doer involved. And if there is no self, there is also no other. There is just life in another embodiment, the same life that is expressing itself through you.

Cheers

Ian

[Neal]

How can I be led away by my questions if there is no me to be led one way or another? How can I be more willing to look without my own will?

[Neal]

"The purpose of guiding is to get you to the gate and it is up to you to take the final step."

It's up to who to step through the gate? Does whoever it is have the power to decide to step through or not?

I feel like you've ignored most of my answers and just got me to do those exercises for no good reason. I've been honest with you but I am starting to doubt I have received the same courtesy. I don't want to be jerked around.

[Finoh]

Hi Neal

Lets face it for you this is just some sort of intellectual diversion. You have nothing at stake. I don’t know, maybe there is not enough suffering in your life to really want to pursue this. The process is very simple, I ask questions (point) and you look and report but no, you want to engage in all types of philosophical discussions and then engage in word games.

It's up to who to step through the gate? Does whoever it is have the power to decide to step through or not?

There is clearly an issue with choice here and free will but this is very well addressed once you have gone through the gate. It is just wasting time doing it here because from your belief in an "I" perspective it is very real and seems to work.

You make comments about ‘jerking’ you around, ‘doing exercises for no good reason' when you have no experience of awakening. It is like asking for street directions in a city you have never been to and then telling the local giving directions they don’t know what they are doing. You have not been doing the exercises as directed because if you had we would be further down the path.

One of the things that prevents genuine seekers from truly looking is fear of not being in control. This can be handled once it is identified.

If you want to continue this investigation in order to trigger the awakening insight known as no-self let me know. I have no attachment one way or the other.

Cheers

Ian