Curiouser and curiouser -- guide me through Wonderland?

[woodthrush]

OH!! Liz has shifted from subject to object! Liz is an object being noticed in awareness.

Uhmm, and the object is noticing the subject noticing the object. That's thoroughly weird. :-)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz the object,

:)

OH!! Liz has shifted from subject to object! Liz is an object being noticed in awareness.

Uhmm, and the object is noticing the subject noticing the object. That's thoroughly weird. :-)

Is Liz an object?

Best wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John!

Is Liz an object?

Emphatically yes! :-)

Anything that can be perceived is by definition an object of perception. The body, thoughts, emotions, actions, etc. can all be perceived.

I'm also the one perceiving.

I am both object and subject.

One feels real to me (the object); the other feels kind of undefinable.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Hi John!

Is Liz an object?

Emphatically yes! :-)

Anything that can be perceived is by definition an object of perception. The body, thoughts, emotions, actions, etc. can all be perceived.

I'm also the one perceiving.

I am both object and subject.

One feels real to me (the object); the other feels kind of undefinable.

Is that all you are?

Best wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Is that all you are?

Best wishes,
John

I don't know. I'll have to come back to this too.

Many thanks. :-)
--Liz

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Is that all you are?

Best wishes,
John

I don't know. I'll have to come back to this too.

Many thanks. :-)
--Liz

Cool. :)

Best,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

I still don't know. Do you want me to guess? Sometimes surprises pop up when I try to muddle something through in writing.

Sometimes I just have to let it "hatch." Though I think writing will help with this one.

What do you think?

Best wishes,
--Liz

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

Sorry. Never mind. I need to muddle this one in writing, or I'm not gonna get it.

Your question implies that there is more to Liz than subject/object. Though, at the moment, I can't imagine what.

The object, "Liz," is easy to understand, now that I see it. How to loosen the awareness that's stuck to the object is not so easy to understand, but maybe it'll happen naturally.

However, the part doing the noticing, (the one I thought was the subject), was noticed. I suppose that makes it an object too.

So I'm left with no subject -- no perceiver. How can that be true?

Then there's stuff that seemingly comes from nowhere. Either something hits me out of the blue and, BAM!, there's an idea in my head. Then my mind grabs it and runs with it. Or there's just the awareness of an idea hatching, and I just have to sit on it, like a bird sits on an egg, until it's ready to pop open. Then my mind grabs it and runs with it too. :-)

I am this stuff that comes from nowhere too. I don't know if that's subject or object. It's undefinable. Asking me to describe it worse than asking me to describe infinity or a singularity. I can't. I don't know.

And, well, that's all I've got for now... To be continued...

All the best,
--Liz

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Hi John:

Sorry. Never mind. I need to muddle this one in writing, or I'm not gonna get it.

Your question implies that there is more to Liz than subject/object. Though, at the moment, I can't imagine what.

The object, "Liz," is easy to understand, now that I see it. How to loosen the awareness that's stuck to the object is not so easy to understand, but maybe it'll happen naturally.

However, the part doing the noticing, (the one I thought was the subject), was noticed. I suppose that makes it an object too.

So I'm left with no subject -- no perceiver. How can that be true?

Hmmmm. Well I never. ;) no subject - no perceiver.

Then there's stuff that seemingly comes from nowhere. Either something hits me out of the blue and, BAM!, there's an idea in my head. Then my mind grabs it and runs with it. Or there's just the awareness of an idea hatching, and I just have to sit on it, like a bird sits on an egg, until it's ready to pop open. Then my mind grabs it and runs with it too. :-)

I am this stuff that comes from nowhere too. I don't know if that's subject or object. It's undefinable. Asking me to describe it worse than asking me to describe infinity or a singularity. I can't. I don't know.

Thanks for going for it Liz. It was a pointer to show what happens when the labels run out. And you got there. :)

So let's check where we're at right here, right now - who/what is looking out reading these words?

With warm wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

So let's check where we're at right here, right now - who/what is looking out reading these words?

Answer 1: Oh wow... The seeing and understanding are just happening. The same way those "BAM" thoughts just happen.

And all this time I thought it was me... :-)


Answer 2: The same person in the picture over on the right -- A NUT!!

:-)

All the best to you,
--Liz

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Hi John:

So let's check where we're at right here, right now - who/what is looking out reading these words?

Answer 1: Oh wow... The seeing and understanding are just happening. The same way those "BAM" thoughts just happen.

And all this time I thought it was me... :-)


Answer 2: The same person in the picture over on the right -- A NUT!!

:-)

All the best to you,
--Liz

How would you describe what has been seen through? Please write like the wind. LOL :)

With warm wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

Please write like the wind. LOL :)

<big grin> :-)

How would you describe what has been seen through?

Before the inquiry, I thought I did things: hear, see, taste, touch, smell, think, understand, move...

And now...

The sensing happens... without me there to sense.

The movement happens... without me there to move.

Intentions appear... without me there to form them.

Ideas appear... without me to there think them.

I am not needed for these things to happen. In reality, I am not there.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Hi John:

Please write like the wind. LOL :)

<big grin> :-)

How would you describe what has been seen through?

Before the inquiry, I thought I did things: hear, see, taste, touch, smell, think, understand, move...

And now...

The sensing happens... without me there to sense.

The movement happens... without me there to move.

Intentions appear... without me there to form them.

Ideas appear... without me to there think them.

I am not needed for these things to happen. In reality, I am not there.

Lovely. That was like a nice, cool breeze. :D

Ok, here are 10 questions Liz...just write what comes up...do one or more at a time if that's what happens.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.


WIth warm wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

Ok. I hope it's okay to take them a bit out of order...

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

"I" is a label, a convenient convention that allows me to communicate.

You and I both agree that the thing outside, above the houses and trees, is called the "sky." Same sort of thing.

And I'll come back and answer in bits and pieces. It'll probably take a bit.

All the best to you!
--Liz

[woodthrush]

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

There was certainly a belief in a "me" -- a person who did things and experienced things. But the belief is unfounded -- unsubstantiated.

Now there is simply movement and experience, and it is absolutely wonderful. One doesn't realize how exhausting it is to exercise one's will on life until the need to do so is gone. There's no more doer -- only doing. I don't have to decide what to do next; it's just done. And it's all fine, even if it's just sitting on my rear-end drinking tea. :-) Uninterpreted experience is wonderfully beautiful too. It's the experience of looking at something without needing to call it a name and just enjoying the light bouncing off every which way.

As for the belief and experience of a separate self... Sometimes I want it back. :-) With the experiencer gone, the experiences themselves are much more acute. The emotions and the heart are unprotected, because there's nothing to protect -- right? Everything is out there. Everything is felt. That's all completely fine when interacting with my hubby and kids and friends. They're loving and fun people, and I thoroughly enjoy them. But when someone is suffering... Ugh! Not all experiences are pleasant.

The pen pal I mentioned is in prison for murder (with an axe, believe it or not). The crime was committed some 30-odd years ago, and he's serving a life sentence. He's constantly fighting his situation. I can't say I blame him for that, but all of the things he's trying to accomplish... all the roadblocks in his way... all the illnesses, aches, and pains... all the acutely felt loneliness... I hear about it all, and it's all experienced and acutely felt. There's also a wish from him (both expressed and implied) that I would fix it. I can't. I can't fix his problems. I can't stop his suffering. I just sit helplessly by and suffer with. It sucks. This was something I took up as a kind of service, a kindness, but now it no longer seems so kind -- to either of us... The notion of what is to be done about this has not yet appeared.

So even though there is an experience of no doer, no perceiver, no self, there's also a distinct sense that the work is not yet done. There are sticky social situations that really test it.