getting started

[Metta777]

There does appear to be some confusion. I wanted to bring up the subject of depression, is that a problem for you just now? when I read my opinions have no value it seemed to indicate that there were some thoughts and feelings which might have been uncomfortable. No, direct experience is the 5 senses and the brain. You smell, see, touch, taste, etc. You are eating a chocolate icecream cone. That is direct experience, it is happening now. Thoughts however can be about anything from 20 years ago or I would like to go to the islands next month. I was told I was handsome last year, am I still the looker I was, etc. etc. Eating an icecream cone now you taste the chocolate, it's cool and creamy, etc. What the crux of the thing is, that past experiences exist only in the mind as imagination and the same for future imaginations. Half the time what we remember as being true when talking to a sibling for example about some incident, they will remember the same incident entirely differently. so which one is true? You don't seem to answer the questions I give you directly Harold. The questions are meant to stimulate you to think about certain things you may have not looked at before. You really avoided my last questions, can we get back to them.
Can you be more specific please in how those words are causing you difficulties, it would give me a better idea of what the problem actually is. Ego is your social face, it is what you put on like a cloak when you deal with the world. It is thought of me,mine, I, that when seen from a higher perspective don't actually exist. There is only one reality, some may choose to call it god, others luminosity, some and energy field. Depends on whether you are speaking with an atheist, buddhist or christian. But the point is labels don't matter, names don't matter and experience does.

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Will try to answer without getting technical. It seems that opinions are thoughts about other thoughts that indicate belief (pro, con or neutral) in them. Judgements seem to be values given to thoughts. Both seem to be ways the ego can create a story to believe or reject. "No value" appears to be a way for the mind to enter a judgement so that it can make a story and take one side or the other giving the ego something to do. Re: "No self no problem" if and when self disappears, nothing is left. The body, mind, sensations etc. are left with "nothing" to connect with. Suffering cannot attach to nothing, so, "nothing" is free (liberated). (Disclaimer--the above thoughts are the product of an egoic mind and may have no basis in reality whatsoever) Re: Phantom me--this creeps in when attention is diverted from "looking for the self" and daily life happens. It is elusive and disappears whenever looked for, ergo phantom. After all these years "i" seems reluctant to sever all ties. Harold

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OK--time out! My computer skills are getting in the way. I didn't understand the page 2 indicator and was under the empression you had not answered my last post yet. So, my post of Nov 15, 10:42 is in answer to your post of Nov 13, 5:58 pm. I will answer your post of Nov 15, 6:03 AM now. (I warned you at the start). Re: depression and the fact my opinion is of no value. My impression is that when "I" have an opinion, the person having the opinion ("I") does not exist therefore the opinion either doesn't exist (just an idle thought) or is of no value. I don't feel bad in any way about the lack of value of my opinions, as they were formulated with thoughts received from others whose opinions are also suspect. I am just saying that I realize that any opinion I have is based on human error and heresay and I would do well to keep it to myself. My confusion with words goes back to something I read in Gateless Gatecrashers before we began. I have not tried to find the passage because I thought it might violate the "no reading rule" but I think the guide said to someone "You are not real, your body is real, your thoughts are real, your feelings are real ...etc. I may have remembered this wrong but my problem was with the word "real" which I associate with "true". I think real in this case meant something that could be directly experienced. Your'e right, let's get back to more important things. Sorry for the confusion. Harold

[Metta777]

No problem Harold, there is never a hurry at my age. :-) I want to preface this with, * We don't exist as who or what we thought we were.* Daily life goes on, the dream goes on. Like it was mentioned before and there is understanding of what was said about value. I want to stress that value/no value, good/bad are judgments or opinions. They just are Harold, they are part of duality. Where in the delusion of self our mind has to reach out with a thought, invest energy and then put things in order with labels. Just a natural process that takes place . It is apparent when observing people that much of what comes out of their mouth has little thought behind it. That's a joke Harold. If humour is not a part of the dream it can be rather stale. :-D It seems what is being confused for self is memory and perhaps passage of time and the experiences that occurred throughout. Real and true are not the same, but I can see where that might cause some confusion.
Let's speak about real then. As you are sitting in your chair, typing, breathing, seeing, there is a *feeling * of realness. Is it real however? I am going to ask you to look at that. I also want to ask you, where is the boundry line in thoughts when you look at the computer screen, the thought ends and the computer begins, or a thought of self ends and the computer begins? Also, when you look directly at your cup of tea or coffee, is there anything inherently * in * that cup of tea that makes it * your * cup of tea? Or are these just labels or thoughts that the mind projects outward to the objects in question.
There is no doubt , truth, that there have been many experiences throughout the years you have lived. But if the past were more then a dream, we would be able to revisit and relive it. But it can't be revisited. Real, we experience, thoughts, feelings, sensations, smell, see, hear, read, etc. When they are happening , when we are experiencing them in that moment, our brain is processing them, it is called direct experience. NOW. 5 senses, brain, operating now. Your brain can remember things, but it is an electrical imprint made on the matter of the brain. So the past is not real, it is an electro-chemical process of recalling. That is all. You aren't actually re-experiencing it. Real.... You can't live the future before it happens. Impossible, so it is a projection of imagination from information your brain has stored. Is there a you or identity beyond thought,feeling and perceptions that are occurring RIGHT NOW!! I capitalize that to draw your attention more thoroughly to the idea, not as yelling. :-) What if a person were not able to remember anything of the past because of a knock on the head? Just something to ponder. Luv, Metta777 P.S. Everything is fine, Harold, no need for warning. There is a good command of language.

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Good point on "we don't exist as who or what we think we are" I tend to try to exterminate "I" or Harold instead of seeing through the illusion. Re: sitting in your chair, typing....it seems to me that sitting, typing, breathing and seeing are real as they are experienced not real if recalled by memory later. Re: boundry line in thoughts when looking at computer screen......I hope we are on same page here---If you mean where the image of the computer screen is located I would in the past have said somewhere behind the eyes. Looking into this deeper it seems that the image could be anywhere between the computer and the eyes, and I can't say where. If self is added as in: "I" see the computer" the image would seem to be in the person called "I". Re: cup of tea--the cup of tea gives off no notion of ownership a thought (or ego) would have to claim ownership through thoughts and memories. Without thoughts and memories it wouldn't even be a cup of tea. Re: is there a you or idenity beyond thought....When looked for, no self, or idenity can be found, just a body with no person looking after it. The person thought to be running the show is seen to be just a story that was never checked out. Upon checking there never was a me just an illusion. The person who lost his memory of the past may have an advantage in living in the present. Without memory the ego would have less material to make up stories. Harold

[Metta777]

Hi Harold, I am backkkkkk. :-) Ready to work at it? Again. I think you might be ready for the final questions, what do you think? If yes, I will post them for you. Thanks, Metta777

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Welcome back, I think you have more faith in my progress than I do but go ahead. Harold

[Metta777]

There is no pass or fail Harold, if you can't answer them, we go to work. :-) Give as detailed an answer as you can and open as you can. Here they are : The Final Questions

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

[Metta777]

If you don't feel ready Harold, let me know that right now the questions are not doable. We can return to them later if needed.

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I typed out answers to all five questions and then checked to make sure I was still logged in then hit submit and everything was deleted (because I wasn't logged in). This is about the fourth time this has happened. I wrote the answers out in longhand just because of this problem. Should I send the answers to your facebook? Please advise. Harold

[Metta777]

Well, I hope now that you are logged in this won't happen again. It would be better here because then you can go to the aftercare group, which provides much ongoing insight. I sometimes lose stuff to due to my accidentally clicking the wrong thing , don't be discouraged. If it were to happen again and you are definitely logged in I will speak to the admin, ok. Regards, Metta

[Metta777]

Hi checked with admins about this and they said it happens occasionally, they advised for long messages copy and paste might be a good avenue to take. Let me know how it goes Harold. Metta

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I will send one question at a time, to cut my losses.

1.--Looking directly it is obvious there is just a body with no person, or thing, floating around (inside or out) that could be a "me". "I" thought there was a "me" doing things, making decisions and somehow in control. Now it is seen that the "I" that thought there was a "me" doesn't exist (just a thought about another thought). So, there is a body with no-thing in charge. The belief that in the past someone was the owner or overseer was just a thought and was never true.

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2.--At birth we are aware and part of our surroundings. We are taught we have a name and that name is who we are. We are told that we have a nose, ear, fingers etc. until we assume ownership of this body. later as the brain becomes active we assume the thoughts occuring are "our" thoughts and when the body acts upon a thought, "we" are doing it. Through the years our persona is filled out with help from parents, peers, teachers, relatives and so on until a seperate person emerges from that original being. The persona (ego) that evolves, seems to maintain it's illusion using thoughts to obscure the truth from the being. Any thought that causes emotion, fear, uneasyness, happiness, conceit etc. keeps the "being" from itself and seperate from other things. Until it is realized that the "aware being" is real and the "person(ego)" is an illusion, made of thoughts, the "being" is said to be asleep. Liberation would be freeing the being from the illusion the ego has created and is creating all the time.

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3.--My first impulse was, that's not it, way too simple. I mentioned before I had this concept of looking inside to be mystical and complicated. When I just looked it became obvious --no entity hanging around. A feeling of aloneness came over__(I would say me but there was no me). I had a slight feeling of nowhere to stand (short-lived). Then a feeling of this body doing things without someone in charge. This would have been scary except I knew it had been going on for 70 years without "me". The other insights that occured and are still in progress are about things I have read about during the past ten years. The list is too long, but, things like when the sages say--give up your opinions, judgements, beliefs etc.--when you realize your opinions are the product of a "me" that doesn't exist (just an illusion), dropping them is easy. I cannot say I see unity with everything, however, I did see and experience that without our egos and bodies my wife and I are exactly the same (this lasted for a nano-second).