Hi Illona,
Well I did the exercise and was a bit surprised. Before starting out I had low expectations of any results except perhaps for some irritation at having (?) to do the exercise. But in part one (using ‘me’s and ‘I’s) I experienced quite a lot of negative emotion such as annoyance at having to use language that I have been trying to see through. I also had quite a bit of physical discomfort. Here is a little extract:
“... I hear the clock ticking. I am thinking about this process. I want to get on with the next stage. I am feeling tension in my stomach. I am thinking about the garden - what will Clare and I do to make it better? I am hearing the clock ticking again. My wrist is aching. I am sitting and waiting for my next thought. … I am wondering how long to go. I have looked. I have five more minutes. I sigh. I feel a bit bored. I have plenty of tension. I am annoyed …”
But in part two almost the opposite happened. There was little physical discomfort, and when there were physical sensations they were often pleasurable. Also there was much less awareness of time passing and less narrative activity. I did, however, write down the word ‘I’ on two occasions and just managed to stop myself doing it on one other occasion. To give a sense of how it went here are the final lines:
“... enjoying breathing. No don’t analyse. Naughty! Who is being naughty? No one. Is there anybody there? (laughing out loud) - almost said ‘I’ again. Enjoying. Simplicity. So few words. Happier. Slowing down. Tingling in right leg, both pleasurable and slightly painful. Out breath - time is up. Content.”
The second part of the exercise was so much more positive although at times there did seem to be an implied ‘I’ in what I wrote and at other times definitely no ‘I’ at all.
Thank you for that Illona. I will keep digging.
Love
Satyapala xx
A thread for Satyapala.
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Hi Illona,
[for some reason I posted this entry yesterday but have just checked and it isn't there! So here it is again xx]
Well I did the exercise and was a bit surprised. Before starting out I had low expectations of any results except perhaps for some irritation at having (?) to do the exercise. But in part one (using ‘me’s and ‘I’s) I experienced quite a lot of negative emotion such as annoyance at having to use language that I have been trying to see through. I also had quite a bit of physical discomfort. Here is a little extract:
“... I hear the clock ticking. I am thinking about this process. I want to get on with the next stage. I am feeling tension in my stomach. I am thinking about the garden - what will Clare and I do to make it better? I am hearing the clock ticking again. My wrist is aching. I am sitting and waiting for my next thought. … I am wondering how long to go. I have looked. I have five more minutes. I sigh. I feel a bit bored. I have plenty of tension. I am annoyed …”
But in part two almost the opposite happened. There was little physical discomfort, and when there were physical sensations they were often pleasurable. Also there was much less awareness of time passing and less narrative activity. I did, however, write down the word ‘I’ on two occasions and just managed to stop myself doing it on one other occasion. To give a sense of how it went here are the final lines:
“... enjoying breathing. No don’t analyse. Naughty! Who is being naughty? No one. Is there anybody there? (laughing out loud) - almost said ‘I’ again. Enjoying. Simplicity. So few words. Happier. Slowing down. Tingling in right leg, both pleasurable and slightly painful. Out breath - time is up. Content.”
The second part of the exercise was so much more positive although at times there did seem to be an implied ‘I’ in what I wrote and at other times definitely no ‘I’ at all.
Thank you for that Illona. I will keep digging.
Love
Satyapala xx
[for some reason I posted this entry yesterday but have just checked and it isn't there! So here it is again xx]
Well I did the exercise and was a bit surprised. Before starting out I had low expectations of any results except perhaps for some irritation at having (?) to do the exercise. But in part one (using ‘me’s and ‘I’s) I experienced quite a lot of negative emotion such as annoyance at having to use language that I have been trying to see through. I also had quite a bit of physical discomfort. Here is a little extract:
“... I hear the clock ticking. I am thinking about this process. I want to get on with the next stage. I am feeling tension in my stomach. I am thinking about the garden - what will Clare and I do to make it better? I am hearing the clock ticking again. My wrist is aching. I am sitting and waiting for my next thought. … I am wondering how long to go. I have looked. I have five more minutes. I sigh. I feel a bit bored. I have plenty of tension. I am annoyed …”
But in part two almost the opposite happened. There was little physical discomfort, and when there were physical sensations they were often pleasurable. Also there was much less awareness of time passing and less narrative activity. I did, however, write down the word ‘I’ on two occasions and just managed to stop myself doing it on one other occasion. To give a sense of how it went here are the final lines:
“... enjoying breathing. No don’t analyse. Naughty! Who is being naughty? No one. Is there anybody there? (laughing out loud) - almost said ‘I’ again. Enjoying. Simplicity. So few words. Happier. Slowing down. Tingling in right leg, both pleasurable and slightly painful. Out breath - time is up. Content.”
The second part of the exercise was so much more positive although at times there did seem to be an implied ‘I’ in what I wrote and at other times definitely no ‘I’ at all.
Thank you for that Illona. I will keep digging.
Love
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Hi Illona,
Not much to say today I have been reviewing some of your more recent observations that I haven’t commented on yet. Indeed I have printed out a selection of these to reflect on during meditation.
“There is sensation of thinking same as sensation of hearing and seeing. Thinking is one of streams of perception. Can you see that? “ Yes this is very clear to me. I am very familiar with this through my Buddhist studies.
“Content is ABOUT real but never real. It's like reflection of moon in the lake. Thoughts = reflection, not the moon. To see the moon, you lift the eyes and look at the moon. So thoughts are only pointers to real. They can also point to other thoughts and ideas, imaginary stuff. “
I need to reflect on this more deeply. I understand it intellectually but need to examine my habits - how often do I treat content as real rather than about real?
Likewise more reflection needed on other points such as
“...narrator and witness is not part of the thought. Narrator is one thought, witness is another. They are complete units of data of themselves. Not part of any other thought/ word/ label. “
“Narrator is a label. There is no narrator, just thoughts appearing one by one that create a story.
Witness is a label. There is no witnesser, just witnessing happening, noticing happening.
Breather is a label- there is no breather, but breathing happening. Same with every object or subject. “
These statements are beginning to feel good to me as if I understand them but I want to reflect on them some more. What I thought I might do is at the beginning of a session of meditation to read them out loud and then ask my unconscious to bring understanding of them to me.
All a bit new-agey for me normally but it did work for me when dealing with illness on a recent solitary retreat.
Best wishes and love
Satyapala xx
Not much to say today I have been reviewing some of your more recent observations that I haven’t commented on yet. Indeed I have printed out a selection of these to reflect on during meditation.
“There is sensation of thinking same as sensation of hearing and seeing. Thinking is one of streams of perception. Can you see that? “ Yes this is very clear to me. I am very familiar with this through my Buddhist studies.
“Content is ABOUT real but never real. It's like reflection of moon in the lake. Thoughts = reflection, not the moon. To see the moon, you lift the eyes and look at the moon. So thoughts are only pointers to real. They can also point to other thoughts and ideas, imaginary stuff. “
I need to reflect on this more deeply. I understand it intellectually but need to examine my habits - how often do I treat content as real rather than about real?
Likewise more reflection needed on other points such as
“...narrator and witness is not part of the thought. Narrator is one thought, witness is another. They are complete units of data of themselves. Not part of any other thought/ word/ label. “
“Narrator is a label. There is no narrator, just thoughts appearing one by one that create a story.
Witness is a label. There is no witnesser, just witnessing happening, noticing happening.
Breather is a label- there is no breather, but breathing happening. Same with every object or subject. “
These statements are beginning to feel good to me as if I understand them but I want to reflect on them some more. What I thought I might do is at the beginning of a session of meditation to read them out loud and then ask my unconscious to bring understanding of them to me.
All a bit new-agey for me normally but it did work for me when dealing with illness on a recent solitary retreat.
Best wishes and love
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Thank you for writing. And yes, keep looking. But, don't tie this up with meditation. This has nothing to do with meditation or special soft state. It's about looking in real life as it is. In everyday ordinary activities. So turn your looking to what is already obvious.
Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought? Or you need an actual thing that this label table points to? Is table thing here with or without labels? Touch it, feel it. Bang on it, test the harness if the real thing.
Now imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't?
Take another word, whatever it is, see the difference between label and that which it points to.
Can words ever be anything more then pointers?
What does word university point to? Is there such thing?
What does word unicorn point to? Is there such thing?
What does word I point to?
Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought? Or you need an actual thing that this label table points to? Is table thing here with or without labels? Touch it, feel it. Bang on it, test the harness if the real thing.
Now imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't?
Take another word, whatever it is, see the difference between label and that which it points to.
Can words ever be anything more then pointers?
What does word university point to? Is there such thing?
What does word unicorn point to? Is there such thing?
What does word I point to?
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Dear Illona,
Thank you for your continued help.
“Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought?” Yes I can put a thought cup of coffee on the thought table but not a real cup of coffee.
And the table in my kitchen is there with or without labels. I can touch it and bang it and shake it. It is a real thing. And there is a real empty coffee cup on the table (I have just drunk the coffee) which is there with or without labels
Now I “imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't? “
Well the difference is not as clear cut and I would have expected. Yes I can bang and shake the real table but the imagined table, although it is not real, in my mind does have a degree of substance. In my imagination I can touch it and feel a degree of resistance and get a sense of tableness even though I know it is not really there.
To answer your question “Can words ever be anything more than pointers?” I would say the answer is no but with the proviso that the relationship between a word and what it points to can be very complex and sometimes create a sense of having a reality of its own. Take, for example, the word ornament. There is an ornament on my bookcase given to me by my eldest son when he returned from Thailand. It is shaped like a frog and if you rub it with a stick it makes a frog sound. Here the word ornament clearly labels the wooden object that I have just described. But is also points to a package of complex emotions and historical fragments such as humour and recognition of the complex relationship I have with my son which all seems to add up to something more than just a simple label.
“What does word university point to? Is there such thing?” Here the answer has to be No and Yes. It is not an object in the sense that a table is an object but for those who work and study in a university it is real enough. So in the sense of being a social structure, a container of dreams and expectations a university is a social object or social construct.
“What does word unicorn point to? Is there such thing?” For me there is no such thing as a unicorn but for a young child who ‘lives’ in the world of fairy tales I guess unicorn’s do exist as a character within a fantasy world. But in the real world there is no unicorn to be found.
“What does word I point to?” The word ‘I’ points to, in my case, the Satyapala shaped physical body/mind along with the package of history, dreams aspirations and social expectations that are associated with that body. But no thing called ‘I’ can be found to exist in the body/mind.
Thanks again Illona.
I take your point about not tieing this process up with meditation though it does feel a bit counter-intuitive and I will try to look at “real life as it is. In everyday ordinary activities [and at] … what is already obvious.”
Regarding your last exercise, particularly the second part when you ask for thoughts to be written down without I me or mine. I am inclined to do this a few more times as a way of conditioning my mind away from seeing the world from the perspective of me and mine. Will that be ok?
Love
Satyapala xx
Thank you for your continued help.
“Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought?” Yes I can put a thought cup of coffee on the thought table but not a real cup of coffee.
And the table in my kitchen is there with or without labels. I can touch it and bang it and shake it. It is a real thing. And there is a real empty coffee cup on the table (I have just drunk the coffee) which is there with or without labels
Now I “imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't? “
Well the difference is not as clear cut and I would have expected. Yes I can bang and shake the real table but the imagined table, although it is not real, in my mind does have a degree of substance. In my imagination I can touch it and feel a degree of resistance and get a sense of tableness even though I know it is not really there.
To answer your question “Can words ever be anything more than pointers?” I would say the answer is no but with the proviso that the relationship between a word and what it points to can be very complex and sometimes create a sense of having a reality of its own. Take, for example, the word ornament. There is an ornament on my bookcase given to me by my eldest son when he returned from Thailand. It is shaped like a frog and if you rub it with a stick it makes a frog sound. Here the word ornament clearly labels the wooden object that I have just described. But is also points to a package of complex emotions and historical fragments such as humour and recognition of the complex relationship I have with my son which all seems to add up to something more than just a simple label.
“What does word university point to? Is there such thing?” Here the answer has to be No and Yes. It is not an object in the sense that a table is an object but for those who work and study in a university it is real enough. So in the sense of being a social structure, a container of dreams and expectations a university is a social object or social construct.
“What does word unicorn point to? Is there such thing?” For me there is no such thing as a unicorn but for a young child who ‘lives’ in the world of fairy tales I guess unicorn’s do exist as a character within a fantasy world. But in the real world there is no unicorn to be found.
“What does word I point to?” The word ‘I’ points to, in my case, the Satyapala shaped physical body/mind along with the package of history, dreams aspirations and social expectations that are associated with that body. But no thing called ‘I’ can be found to exist in the body/mind.
Thanks again Illona.
I take your point about not tieing this process up with meditation though it does feel a bit counter-intuitive and I will try to look at “real life as it is. In everyday ordinary activities [and at] … what is already obvious.”
Regarding your last exercise, particularly the second part when you ask for thoughts to be written down without I me or mine. I am inclined to do this a few more times as a way of conditioning my mind away from seeing the world from the perspective of me and mine. Will that be ok?
Love
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Thank you for answers. But... They come from the head. Not from direct experience. I'd say answer same questions again, but only from direct experience.
That is how you experience, not some kid dreaming about unicorns or proffessor at at university.
Limit your answers to your own experience as you see it now. That is check and describe. Keep it simple.
Give it another shot.
That is how you experience, not some kid dreaming about unicorns or proffessor at at university.
Limit your answers to your own experience as you see it now. That is check and describe. Keep it simple.
Give it another shot.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Dear Illona,
My direct experience on reading your last message was (sick feeling) not again, not another telling off - second time! When I look at your words again I see that you are just being direct. So in terms of direct experience my feeling is real but the content is fantasy.
I will give your questions another shot but there may be only a few words.
“Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought?” No, not if you mean a real cup of coffee.
“Or you need an actual thing that this label table points to?” I am not quite understanding your words. Are you saying ‘Do you needs an actual table to put an actual cup of coffee on?’ If so, then the answer is yes.
“ Is table thing here with or without labels?” Yes
“ Touch it, feel it. Bang on it, test the harness if the real thing.
Now imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't?”
The actual table is real, in the sense that it continues to be there when I stop looking at it. The imagined table disappears when I stop looking at it.
“Can words ever be anything more than pointers?” I don’t think so but I don’t really know - probably not.
“What does word university point to?” For me the word University points to a collection of emotions and memories mostly warm and pleasurable.
“Is there such thing?” This is a philosophical question so I have no direct experience.
“What does word unicorn point to?” a mythical creature.
“ Is there such thing?” I have no direct experience.
“What does word I point to?” Subjective, emotional responses to the world which come and go and which I have got used to calling ‘I’.
I am trying :)
Satyapala xx
My direct experience on reading your last message was (sick feeling) not again, not another telling off - second time! When I look at your words again I see that you are just being direct. So in terms of direct experience my feeling is real but the content is fantasy.
I will give your questions another shot but there may be only a few words.
“Take a thought table. Can you put a cup of coffee on the thought?” No, not if you mean a real cup of coffee.
“Or you need an actual thing that this label table points to?” I am not quite understanding your words. Are you saying ‘Do you needs an actual table to put an actual cup of coffee on?’ If so, then the answer is yes.
“ Is table thing here with or without labels?” Yes
“ Touch it, feel it. Bang on it, test the harness if the real thing.
Now imagine a table with eyes closed and do the same testing. What is the difference between direct experience of table that is here and the imagined table that isn't?”
The actual table is real, in the sense that it continues to be there when I stop looking at it. The imagined table disappears when I stop looking at it.
“Can words ever be anything more than pointers?” I don’t think so but I don’t really know - probably not.
“What does word university point to?” For me the word University points to a collection of emotions and memories mostly warm and pleasurable.
“Is there such thing?” This is a philosophical question so I have no direct experience.
“What does word unicorn point to?” a mythical creature.
“ Is there such thing?” I have no direct experience.
“What does word I point to?” Subjective, emotional responses to the world which come and go and which I have got used to calling ‘I’.
I am trying :)
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Good trying. :) thank you for direct answers.
Yet university question is not phylosophical.
University is a label that points to buildings, books, people, certain behavioural patterns, but there is no actual thing that is university. It's a concept. A word that we use in comunication.
Same is with word I. It's a concept. But there is no actual I that moves this body and thinks thoughts.
What does word me point to?
If you had to touch me with a finger, where does the finger land?
Do emotional responses require an I? How about a little baby, is there an I in it?
Can it be, that I is an illusion? What would be lost if that was true?
Is it true?
Keep looking.
Yet university question is not phylosophical.
University is a label that points to buildings, books, people, certain behavioural patterns, but there is no actual thing that is university. It's a concept. A word that we use in comunication.
Same is with word I. It's a concept. But there is no actual I that moves this body and thinks thoughts.
What does word me point to?
If you had to touch me with a finger, where does the finger land?
Do emotional responses require an I? How about a little baby, is there an I in it?
Can it be, that I is an illusion? What would be lost if that was true?
Is it true?
Keep looking.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Dear Illona,
Thank you for your speedy response. I will try to keep up the momentum.
“University is a label that points to buildings, books, people, certain behavioural patterns, but there is no actual thing that is university. It's a concept. A word that we use in comunication.” Thank you for clarifying this. I see and agree with you.
“Same is with word I. It's a concept. But there is no actual I that moves this body and thinks thoughts.”
Logically I see this to be true but have I broken the habit of seeing I as real? I don’t think so. . I need to watch what happens.
“What does word me point to?” Same as the word I, me is a concept that points to a collection of body sensations, thoughts and emotions.
“If you had to touch me with a finger, where does the finger land?” Direct experience: finger touches body. In longer form: Finger on the body known as satyapala (concept) touches the body of Illona (concept)
“Do emotional responses require an I?” No they don’t but I easily label strong (especially negative) emotions with an I.
“How about a little baby, is there an I in it? No, concepts have no place in a little baby’s consciousness.
“Can it be, that I is an illusion? What would be lost if that was true?
Is it true?”
There is no thing called I other than as a label/concept that helps us communicate with other people. So nothing is lost by seeing I as an illusion. Indeed there seems much to be gained; so much energy is required to sustain an I.
Not many words so less chance for head to take over :)
Thank you Illona
Satyapala xx
Thank you for your speedy response. I will try to keep up the momentum.
“University is a label that points to buildings, books, people, certain behavioural patterns, but there is no actual thing that is university. It's a concept. A word that we use in comunication.” Thank you for clarifying this. I see and agree with you.
“Same is with word I. It's a concept. But there is no actual I that moves this body and thinks thoughts.”
Logically I see this to be true but have I broken the habit of seeing I as real? I don’t think so. . I need to watch what happens.
“What does word me point to?” Same as the word I, me is a concept that points to a collection of body sensations, thoughts and emotions.
“If you had to touch me with a finger, where does the finger land?” Direct experience: finger touches body. In longer form: Finger on the body known as satyapala (concept) touches the body of Illona (concept)
“Do emotional responses require an I?” No they don’t but I easily label strong (especially negative) emotions with an I.
“How about a little baby, is there an I in it? No, concepts have no place in a little baby’s consciousness.
“Can it be, that I is an illusion? What would be lost if that was true?
Is it true?”
There is no thing called I other than as a label/concept that helps us communicate with other people. So nothing is lost by seeing I as an illusion. Indeed there seems much to be gained; so much energy is required to sustain an I.
Not many words so less chance for head to take over :)
Thank you Illona
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Haha, well played :)
Ok,
Finger touches the body. Is it touching 'me'?
Is there a me in the bag of skin? Exactly in which place in the body?
And how does that finger touches Ilona? That sounds interesting. Can you investigate that, see what else you can find out.
Ilona is an image in your head. Can you touch an imagined Ilona? How about a unicorn, can you touch that?
See what is really going on, not what you think is going on.
What is here underneath thinking?
Ok,
What was that?“If you had to touch me with a finger, where does the finger land?” Direct experience: finger touches body. In longer form: Finger on the body known as satyapala (concept) touches the body of Illona (concept)
Finger touches the body. Is it touching 'me'?
Is there a me in the bag of skin? Exactly in which place in the body?
And how does that finger touches Ilona? That sounds interesting. Can you investigate that, see what else you can find out.
Ilona is an image in your head. Can you touch an imagined Ilona? How about a unicorn, can you touch that?
See what is really going on, not what you think is going on.
What is here underneath thinking?
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Hi Illona,
“Finger touches the body. Is it touching 'me'?” No me is just a concept.
“Is there a me in the bag of skin? “ No me is just a concept.
“Exactly in which place in the body?” A body is also just a concept which covers an assembly of parts - head, torso, arms legs etc. So the body is nowhere.
“And how does that finger touches Ilona? That sounds interesting. Can you investigate that, see what else you can find out.”
Well first of all: is a finger just a concept? Again, in a certain sense yes in the same way a body is just a concept. It is a concept that covers an assembly of parts - bones, sinew, blood etc. And, of course, a concept can’t touch anything and it certainly can’t touch Illona. As you say “Illona is an image in your head” which is a concept and not real. So ‘I’ (concept) can’t use my finger (concept) to touch an imagined Illona (concept). And of course ‘I’ (concept) can’t touch a Unicorn (concept) even if one could be shown to exist.
Phew, breathing out (only breathing no breather!)
I really hope you are well Illona. and thank you for what you are doing.
Love
Satyapala xx
“Finger touches the body. Is it touching 'me'?” No me is just a concept.
“Is there a me in the bag of skin? “ No me is just a concept.
“Exactly in which place in the body?” A body is also just a concept which covers an assembly of parts - head, torso, arms legs etc. So the body is nowhere.
“And how does that finger touches Ilona? That sounds interesting. Can you investigate that, see what else you can find out.”
Well first of all: is a finger just a concept? Again, in a certain sense yes in the same way a body is just a concept. It is a concept that covers an assembly of parts - bones, sinew, blood etc. And, of course, a concept can’t touch anything and it certainly can’t touch Illona. As you say “Illona is an image in your head” which is a concept and not real. So ‘I’ (concept) can’t use my finger (concept) to touch an imagined Illona (concept). And of course ‘I’ (concept) can’t touch a Unicorn (concept) even if one could be shown to exist.
Phew, breathing out (only breathing no breather!)
I really hope you are well Illona. and thank you for what you are doing.
Love
Satyapala xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
I'm very well, thank you. :)
What is here underneath all concepts, underneath thinking? Can you describe what you see?
Much love.
What is here underneath all concepts, underneath thinking? Can you describe what you see?
Much love.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
Sorry, one word answer seems disrespectful but all experience seems to start with sensations xx
Re: A thread for Satyapala.
ok, sensations, yes, what else? describe what is here now.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Semrush [Bot] and 5 guests