Wanting to liberate

[lchiles]

Still looking. Can't find separate self! So liberating!!!

I have very limited access to a computer (only at work) and I want to respond to all of your questions when I return home in a week.

Love,
Lisa

[cosmiK]

Lisa,

Yeah, no such thing :)

Great. Get back to me fully as soon as you are able to,
and keep looking in to your absence.

If there is no self at the center, no self as a doer, no self as a decider, no self as a actor, then what is there?
(take your time with this... answer with your own words and try to explain it to me as if I never heard any spiritual terminology before)

with Love

[cosmiK]

just checking in, haven't heard from you in 2+ days. How is it going Lisa?

[lchiles]

Hi Cosmick,

I am home and now have regular access to my computer. There is so much seeking from my mind. Fear of loneliness is arising which seems to get in my way a lot. I know that it is my ego mind but it has traction. I feel like I waffle between the ego mind and the peace of no separate self.

Love,
Lisa

[cosmiK]

Hi Lisa!

Yes! Glad you are back!

Let's get back on track shall we?

There is a lot of ownership in that last response.

are they YOUR thoughts?
YOUR mind?
YOUR 'ego'?
Can you find this 'you' in Direct Experience?
Direct ATTENTION FULLY ON this supposed 'owner'

How can I help you with this investigation. Do you need a refresher?
Here is an article I wrote on Direct Experience. It should help you refresh on investigation:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
Here is an article on thinking/thoughts:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ughts.html
Here is an article on doership:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html

Get back to me and tell me how I can help you,

with Love.

[lchiles]

HI Cosmick,

Thank you for the refernce to your blogs. I will continue to look at my direct experience which you said deconstructs the self. I have printed your previous notes and will do as you suggested. I did get off track as I was travelling. THank you for helping me.

Love,
Lisa

[cosmiK]

Lisa,

Look forward to your next response. For the process to be effective we gotta keep the conversation flowing regularly.

With Love.

[lchiles]

Will definitely write every day. My friend Valerie was just at my house and she recently liberated and inspired me. You had asked how you can help me and right now I know that I have to keep looking at direct experience. Liberation feels so close!

Love Lisa

[cosmiK]

Lisa,

The same Valerie who worked with me? :)

Alright great - will await your investigation and response,

with Love.

[lchiles]

Yes, the same Valerie who worked with you.

You asked am I walking or is walking just happening? I walked slowly and walking just happens. My direct experience is there is nothing to control the walking or making walking happen. My arms move up and down without a controller. When doing an activity, there is just the doing. Feelings arise. Songs are heard, objects are seen.

AND thoughts arise and there is still a beLIEvable separate self. There are still some scary thoughts that keep me stuck. You said to look right at fear...is there anything behind it? Thank any fear or anxiety for doing it's job.Tell it you appreciate it, but its time to Wake up. There is nothing to protect. There is just Life. The scary thoughts and feelings feel so strong and it is hard for me to see beyond them. Can I wake up in the midst of anxiety? It is a big distraction that pulls me out of my direct experience. The anxiety also really affects my sleep.

I am also finding that I spend some time on my direct experience but when I am at work I forget to observe my direct experience. It seems that if I were more attentive to my direct experience throughout the day, I would be able to break down this separate self.

How can I see no separate self and be so caught it in other times?

Is there a way we can make our correspondance private. Since part of my name is my user id I would like to keep this more confidential. Valerie mentioned to me that we can make it private.

Thanks, Cosmick.

Love,
Lisa

[cosmiK]

Yes, the same Valerie who worked with you.

You asked am I walking or is walking just happening? I walked slowly and walking just happens. My direct experience is there is nothing to control the walking or making walking happen. My arms move up and down without a controller. When doing an activity, there is just the doing. Feelings arise. Songs are heard, objects are seen.

going to be picky here, but in all the uses of "my" above... is there ever an owner or claimant in Direct Experience?

AND thoughts arise and there is still a beLIEvable separate self. There are still some scary thoughts that keep me stuck. You said to look right at fear...is there anything behind it? Thank any fear or anxiety for doing it's job.Tell it you appreciate it, but its time to Wake up. There is nothing to protect. There is just Life. The scary thoughts and feelings feel so strong and it is hard for me to see beyond them. Can I wake up in the midst of anxiety? It is a big distraction that pulls me out of my direct experience. The anxiety also really affects my sleep.

Lisa this sentence reflects that you believe that all of this fear, anxiety, thoughts and distractions happen TO a someone or something... that all of this Experience BELONGS TO someone or something. CHECK that.

What do you mean there 'is still a believable separate self'? Where? Where in Experiential evidence do you locate this?

thoughts are totally free to show up
fear is totally free to show up
anxiety is totally free to show up
whatever is free to show up
no need to work against anything... WHO would do such a thing anyway?
why would any of this matter if there is no YOU :)
invite it in to DO IT'S WORST. ARMS WIDE OPEN. SURRENDER :)

Do not try to 'wake up in the midst of it', just notice if there is ANYONE that can Wake up?

Do not try to 'see beyond fear', just notice if it is YOUR fear? Where is the YOU that is afraid?

I am also finding that I spend some time on my direct experience but when I am at work I forget to observe my direct experience. It seems that if I were more attentive to my direct experience throughout the day, I would be able to break down this separate self.

and what separate self is there to break down Lisa?

How can I see no separate self and be so caught it in other times?

WHO is seeing 'no separate self' ??
and
WHO is caught up ??

Is there a way we can make our correspondance private. Since part of my name is my user id I would like to keep this more confidential. Valerie mentioned to me that we can make it private.

Thanks, Cosmick.

Love,
Lisa

WHO is concerned for their privacy??? :)

But yes, of course. I will send you instructions to contact me on Facebook and we can continue there.

Please consider the responses and pointers I gave you just now VERY CAREFULLY here though.

[cosmiK]

****** PASTED FROM FB PM Communications *******

Lisa Chiles

Hi Cosmick,
Is this the best way for us to communicate on FB?

Love,
Lisa

8:01pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hi Lisa,

Sure.

How's it going?

8:14pm
Lisa Chiles

How's it going? Good question. I will just give this a shot and be 100% honest. During the day, the illusion of separate self is still there. There are times when direct awareness allows everything to arise. Last night when you said Anxiety is totally free to show up and invite it to do its worst, arms wide open, direct experince allowed the sensations to be there with NO resistance. The tenseness was allowed to arise. Funny thing is the tenseness relaxed a bit when there was no separate self wishing it to be gone. When you said that I believe that all of this fear, anxiety, thoughts and distractions happen to a someone I really started to check. There was no one. But then today the someone showed back up. There were times when I looked for the someone but most of the day there still seemed to be a someone there. THe separate self feels schizophrenic! It feels confused by the thought I want to see that there is no separate self yet "I" get caught in the separate self.

8:16pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Well... What is this separate self that "comes back"? Is it there now?

Seeing though the illusion is like seeing a pattern on a tapestry... Once seen it cannot be unseen... Once you see that there ONLY Life... Only 'this'... It will click... It's just a SLIGHT refocusing.

Right now Lisa...

Is there a you reading this? Or just reading?

One is more true... It. Is always that true. Talk to me.

8:20pm
Lisa Chiles

Can't find it because I am sitting here quietly. I noticed that it arose today. My 16 year old daughter was recently launched into being a model. Her profile pictures are very sexy for my all American girl. Pleople were giving me opinions as to what I should do. The separate self went into full gear analyzing and "trying to figure things out" so I could do the right thing.

8:23pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Sitting quietly
Noticing.
16 yr old daughter.
Opinions received
Analyzing and trying to figure things...

No you

You are close

Just notice that Life is doing its thing.

Talk to me about what your doubts are here?

Any expectations?

8:27pm
Lisa Chiles

I will be back in about half an hour. Need to attend to something.

8:28pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Okay...
Notice your absence regardless of any appearance

9:25pm
Lisa Chiles

I am back. Are you still there?

My doubts are "i am not sure I am doing this right!" "Should I be working at this harder?" Stupid stuf!

My expectations used to be that I will be in bliss. Now they are life will be the same but no me to intervene in life.

9:59pm
Neil Jalaldeen

I am around, was just having dinner.

Being in bliss is a very unrealistic expectation but who knows. drop the expectations.

Okay, so what do you mean there is a "me" intervening?

If there is anything you need to do is notice that there is no separate self. It can happen in an instant.

Lets work from where you are.

10:31pm
Lisa Chiles

The me that is intervening is all of the beliefs that I have to function from. I don't believe I will be in bliss now. I was just watching Budha at the gas station.

So here I am now. Easy to notice no separate self. Life is just happening. It seems easy when I am still and focused and can't see the separate self. However, it is also equally as easy to still function in the belief that there is a separate self, especially if my beliefs are being challenged. Truthfully "I" am not sure I am doing "this" right. I have the belief that I need to work really hard to deconstruct myself.

10:39pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Lisa beliefs are just thoughts that are taken to be reality. Check and see if any of them are true.

There is no self --> is it true?

What do you mean by "noticing no separate self"? There is never a self

How is there a self when not still and focused?

And where is this "myself" that can be deconstructed?

10:54pm
Lisa Chiles

You are good! Thoughts are arising that want to answer the questions. They are insufficient. Squirming is happening. Can't find the myself that needs to be deconstructed. I have no answers.

11:01pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Good.

What else?

Whatever comes up, is free to come up. It arises to no one. Even the appearance of a body, an image of a "you", a sense of self, is free to arise. You are not any of that. You are the freedom in which all of it arises, you alone are. There is never a "You" that is separate.

11:08pm
Lisa Chiles

I will drift off to sleep now and relax in direct experience. We will continue tomorrow.

I am very grateful to you!
Love,
Lisa

11:09pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Experience is, with NO you to relax in to

Sleep well , talk soon.

Enjoi your absence

November 16
8:45am
Lisa Chiles

Neil,
A lot of thoughts are arising about no separate self. They come rapidly. They say that "I" may be stuck in the separate self. The mind wants to figure "this" out. Frustration.

8:48am
Neil Jalaldeen

Are you the thinker of those thoughts Lisa?

Can you think and choose a thought?

8:50am
Lisa Chiles

"I" would like to choose my thoughts! But, no, thoughts arise.

8:55am
Neil Jalaldeen

If I said choose a thought of hello kitty. Can you choose it?

8:58am
Lisa Chiles

No, thoughts arise on their own.

9:00am
Neil Jalaldeen

If they are not your thoughts who cares what they say about anything. You can see clearly from direct experience there is no self.

Is there a "mind"? Or just a stream of thoughts?

9:01am
Lisa Chiles

There is just a stream of thoughts.

9:03am
Neil Jalaldeen

There is never a self that can be stuck in self just a thought about it. Thought are silly, but not your enemy, just thoughts.

9:05am
Lisa Chiles

Good point. What a relief.

9:19am
Neil Jalaldeen

I'll be around later, have a few things I need to do. Keep looking, and write what you find. Write from where you are

November 17
11:18am
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

The fear is lifting. It has been my constant companion for four years. The illusion of the separate self is coming to an end. No need to control, figure things out. Life is as it is. Movement happens, thoughts arise, sensations are there. No need to worry about the future or who "I" was in the past. The body and mind can relax.

November 17
7:38pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Lisa,

good to hear...

in Life, in Experience... in 'this'...
is there anything that is personal?

is there an experience-er anywhere that experiences?

is there separation anywhere at all?

is there anything missing, right here, right now?

November 18
8:52am
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

9:09am
Lisa Chiles

"I" still have the belief in Santa Claus! Intellectually I understand there is no self, but there still seems to be the illusion of one in control. Frustrating!

Is there anything that is personal? It still feels that way. I noticed that I thought I was liberated and then I realized that was another thought about me. I can still see the false me wanting to control my life. It wants to make sure I make enough money.

Is there an experience-er anywhere that experiences? Still feels lik "I" experience.

Is there separation anywhere at all? Only in the belief that I am separate.

Is there anything missing, right here, right now? No. It's only when the mind wanders into the future that I get stuck.

Yesterday was so calm that I was fooled into thinking that the self disappeared!

This belief in separation is frustrating!

Love,
Lisa

November 18
1:21pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

1:23pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Get back to you soon Lisa. Out foe the day w my son

1:28pm
Lisa Chiles

Thoughts are making this way too complicated! "I" had an expectation that fear would go away. Truth is fear arises, just not to me. Life is happening, but there is no me it is happening to. There is no separate self. It is that simple.

November 19
10:07pm
Neil Jalaldeen

"Intellectually I understand there is no self, but there still seems to be the illusion of one in control. Frustrating! "
How is there a 'one' that is in control Lisa? Can you explain this? Can you explain this to yourself in Direct Experience. Ca you find the controller, or the point of control/choice?

"I can still see the false me wanting to control my life. It wants to make sure I make enough money."
money was always being made without an "I" in control Lisa

"Still feels lik "I" experience."
Isn't "I" a thought or label?
How does a thought experience?
How does a label see, hear or feel?

"Is there anything missing, right here, right now? No. It's only when the mind wanders into the future that I get stuck."
There may be a thought about the future which includes "I"...
but can you see that 'future' exists ONLY in thought...
and can you see that 'I' exists ONLY in thought ?

"Yesterday was so calm that I was fooled into thinking that the self disappeared! "
What is the "self"? How can a "self" appear? and how can a "self" disappear?
Maybe there is an appearance of a 'body', some thoughts about 'I'... but you have to really check and see if there is EVER a self other than in thought. Ruthlessly investigate Experiencing.

"Thoughts are making this way too complicated!"
thoughts will continue to arise... and it is totally fine... they arise to noone.
do you notice that there is only ever an "I" in thought?

""I" had an expectation that fear would go away."
there may be still expectations, yet they can be dropped investigate Experience deeply, feel it fully.

"Truth is fear arises, just not to me. Life is happening, but there is no me it is happening to. There is no separate self. It is that simple."
Yes...

Are there any more doubts or sticking points that we can look at?

with Love

November 20
8:39am
Lisa Chiles

No! The illusion of the separate self has been seen.
With love,
Lisa

November 20
5:52pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Alright Lisa,

If there are no more doubts, we can then proceed to the Final Questions?

I know you said you wanted to keep this private, but is it okay if I paste our conversation back in the forum so the guides may have it to review and it will be there for records? If not, then I can find a workaround for that, but easier to just have it in one place.

with Love.

November 22
9:09pm
Neil Jalaldeen

everything going alright Lisa?

10:23pm
Lisa Chiles

HI Neil,

No problem posting our conversation. Yes, I am definitely ready for the final questions. Everything is going well!! Thanks for all of your guidance!

Love,

Lisa

Lisa Chiles

10:25pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?

7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?

what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?

9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

10:25pm
Neil Jalaldeen

that's 8 ) btw

November 23
8:59pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

I am being 100% honest right now. I started to answer the questions and all of this fear came up that I had not seen through the illusion of the separate self. So, I am stuck. Does fear disappear when the illusion is seen?

Love,
Lisa

9:29pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hey Lisa,

Thanks for the honesty - no worries.

"all of this fear came up that I had not seen through the illusion of the separate self."
there may be fear, but what does this have to do with seeing through the illusion of the separation self?

fear may continue to arise, and probably will, yet it does not really stick for long. Regardless of whatever arises, it is clear that there is no separate self

Talk to me.

10:46pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,
You said that fear may continue to arise, and probably will, yet it doesn't stick for long. There has been so much fear in direct experience for th past four years. It is very confusing to disentangle the fear from the belief in the separate self. The scariest thought that arises is that I will never be through with this fear. It makes me cry to think that thought. There is so much energy behind it. I feel SO trapped in these thoughts.

11:33pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hi Lisa,

It's alright, just let whatever feeling be there, even if it's fear, and continue to see if it arises to anyone? if it is felt by anyone? That is the illusory link and binding that we attempting to circumvent.

When you feel trapped in those thoughts place attention in Direct Experience to find this "I" that is trapped?

Send kindness to whatever arises but keep your attention focused on seeing through the illusion

Talk to me,

with Love.

November 24
9:29am
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

Thank you for your guidance. I was able to relax with your soothing words. I have been putting so much pressure on myself to get through this fear. So much guilt arises for not being able to move through it when I have had so much guidance in the past. My thoughts keep saying, what is wrong with you? I am sobbing as I write this. This is my experience.

I am so touched by your willingness to guide me. There is relaxing happening. Thoughts are arising. Feelings are there. It is easier to get out of my head. Everything is allowed to be as it is. It is not comfortable but thoughts and feelings are arising, typing is happening. Seeing is happening. It is obvious that there is no separate self, just a coninuous flow of life. I know that where I get tripped up is that I want the fear to be gone! When the fear is so intense, I get so contracted back into believing the thoughts.

Love,
Lisa

November 24
1:21pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hi Lisa,

Just take a day and relax in to what is going on. No rush to get this done, and no one to do it

Surrender and dare the fear to do its worst, then see what power it has over you? If anything, is there a you in d.E. that can be overpowered?

Talk soon

With Love.

2:59pm
Lisa Chiles

THank you Neil,
Your advice is well taken. I am grateful there is no rush to get this done. Will let the fear do its worst!

Love,
Lisa

November 24
8:23pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Lisa,

Good to hear

Talk soon

November 25
9:13pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

A lot less fear arose today. You asked if there is a me in direct experience that can be overpowered. It is really difficult to function well when the fear is intense. So it does feel personal because it is affecting the mind, the body, emotions, and feelings. It becomes very consuming. The belief shows up that "I" ought to be able to stop this, "I" must be unconscious. Another question arises "Will I only be free of this anxiety when the ground of being is fully lived?" Thus, the fear arises because most of the time I can still be lost in thought. Can I realize that there is no self and still have fear arise?

Love,
Lisa

November 26
10:27pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hi Lisa,

What you are experiencing is very normal

We gotta keep circumventing this self referencing "I". Which I would stop anything Lisa? What needs to stop what? Stick to Direct experiencing

Also... Let us look at this Fear? Let the fear speak freely here. What is it regarding? What is its message? Tell it thank you and send it Loving-kindness

And yes you can realize, and still have fear, but it won't have anywhere to stick who would it stick to?

November 28
9:52am
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

It is a relief to hear that what I am experiencing is normal. It can be very overwhelming.

The I that wants to stop anything is the one that thinks I am not conscious so I need to work hard at this. If I were conscious, I wouldn't be in so much pain. If I were conscious, I wouldn't have this fears. Those are the thoughts swimming around. They cause me fear because it feels like I will be stuck with this fear. It seems like I need to see the illusion of the separate self before this fear can disappear, yet the fear keeps me stuck.

The fear started out as financial fear or lack of security. Then it seemed to move into so many areas--I am not good enough, what is wrong with me, why can't I get through this? Will this ever be over? I feel like I have to be super human to work through this fear. Oftentimes, there is fear of the fear. The message seems to be "i'm not good enough." Obviously, when the belief in the separate self is gone, there would no longer be anyone who is not good enough.

I will stick to direct experience today. Thanks for your guidance. I really appreciate you.

Love,
Lisa

November 29
8:49pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hey Lisa,

"The I that wants to stop anything is the one that thinks I am not conscious so I need to work hard at this. If I were conscious, I wouldn't be in so much pain. If I were conscious, I wouldn't have this fears. Those are the thoughts swimming around. They cause me fear because it feels like I will be stuck with this fear. It seems like I need to see the illusion of the separate self before this fear can disappear, yet the fear keeps me stuck."
Yes... read this over and see all the references to "I" and "me" here. It is a good indication of how thoughts are constantly self-referencing, and the only way this illusory binding is maintained is through the constantly unchecked assumptions.

I realize that this is difficult and painful for you, but I assure you that you CANNOT be harmed, and you CANNOT do it wrong. It is all perfectly playing itself out, including this process, and including SEEing through the separate self.

This fear is sticking and icky and yucky, but be brave and strong, and sit right in the middle of it and tell it to do it's worst. At the same time notice there is NOONE there that it can ever harm Also see how there is NEVER anyone that is stuck, just a sensation and a thought "stuck"

"The fear started out as financial fear or lack of security. Then it seemed to move into so many areas--I am not good enough, what is wrong with me, why can't I get through this? Will this ever be over? I feel like I have to be super human to work through this fear. Oftentimes, there is fear of the fear. The message seems to be "i'm not good enough." Obviously, when the belief in the separate self is gone, there would no longer be anyone who is not good enough."
Yes I understand about having to be "super human" to work through the fear, and all the stuff that it brings up. Just stare at it Lisa and keep staring at it. Do not expect all fear and patterns to dissapear after seeing through the illusion, but they will dissapear and cancel out of their own accord because they will have NOTHING to stick to... WHO would they ever stick to ?

"I will stick to direct experience today. Thanks for your guidance. I really appreciate you."
Yes. d.E. is the ONLY thing that can circumvent any lingering assumptions and is the Truth always staring at you in the face (and no I don't mean a separate 'you'... lol) And I am very grateful to you too Lisa.

Remember...

Life got lost in thoughts and imagined that it was a separate self named Lisa... yet... Lisa is just a name given to Life. You are Life. There is never a "You" that is separate from Life. There is NEVER a "you" that is any of the nonsense that thoughts say such as "not conscious", "stuck", "not good enough". What utter nonsense. Keep reminding yourself that there is no such "You"... keep SHOWING yourself there is no "you" in direct experience... the only way this "You" exists is in a thought, an image, a selectively placed label on Life. You are Life and you are perfect just the way you are. The character Lisa can dance and will dance the way she does, and you are not that character. You are the Life in which all the characters and situations and thoughts and skies and planets dance in

All your work here is to conduct this simple investigation and keep your focus on that. You are doing amazing,

with Love.

December 1
12:20pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

Yes, my writing was loaded with I! It felt so real because the fear was so dense. It felt as though it was happening to someone. When the fear isn't so dense, it is so much easier to not be able to find the I. THank God I cannot do this wrong! The fear was telling me that "I" am doing this wrong.

Direct experience at this moment is some tension in the mid-body, typing, some fearful thoughts, sitting on a chair. Everything is just arising. No separate self. Just Direct Experience. Direct Experience is what is real. Not the thoughts of who I have believed myself to be. It is so much easier to see Direct Experience when the scary thoughts aren't having a party in my mind.

What seems to be happening is a realization that all of the things I believed about myself decided to come up and have a scary party for the past four years. It was hard to accept that I couldn't keep it all together, that I could be anxious, that I could have financial problems, health problems. That happens to other people, not me! There must be something wrong with me. I am not doing this life right. My mind has pummelled me! The truth is all of those situations can arise because they have. The experience has been incredibly difficult but has eventually worn down the old beliefs.

I will continue to investigate the separate self. I know that it is not there. I noticed that I still have the belief that when the fear arises, it is happening to me. I am not sure how to disentangle the dense fear and realize that it is not happening to me.

Love,
Lisa

Wednesday
7:31pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

Wanted to check back with you. My friend Valerie mentioned a group called Deep Looking. Would it be possible for me to join?

7:32pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Hi Lisa!

I apologize. I didn't see your last response! I can get to that a little later.

Deep Looking is one of our post-gate groups and as such I can only invite people who are confirmed... sorry if it feels like a 'special club' or something that's just the rules / procedures.

7:42pm
Neil Jalaldeen

So...

" THank God I cannot do this wrong! The fear was telling me that "I" am doing this wrong. "

There is a sensation we label Fear, but you can drop the label and feel it fully, allow it fully, it's just there. The thought "I am doing it wrong" is ridiculous It's just a thought.

"It is so much easier to see Direct Experience when the scary thoughts aren't having a party in my mind."

Yes... and that party can be let be... it's all fine... just notice that lack of a separate "you".

"My mind has pummelled me! The truth is all of those situations can arise because they have. The experience has been incredibly difficult but has eventually worn down the old beliefs. "

It's not "Your" mind It's just a stream of thoughts. And yes, I can understand how this must have been a difficult time, and the best thing you can do is totally surrender (not something to do, but just letting it ALL be - it's really OK). It's just part of the dance of Life, and there is no separate Lisa there that can be harmed.

"I will continue to investigate the separate self. I know that it is not there. I noticed that I still have the belief that when the fear arises, it is happening to me. I am not sure how to disentangle the dense fear and realize that it is not happening to me."

Don't worry about disentangling anything... WHO would do such a thing? Just keep simply noticing that there is no actual self there that it is happening to. Any "self" that is assumed to be there is JUST an experience... just another flavor of Experiencing. Once this Insight is triggered all of the nonsense will disentangle and crumble, yet for now, this insight is the MOST IMPORTANT THING.

Looking in your absence is the most important thing.

Do you need any exercises on any sticking points?

I see that the fear arising seems to be the biggest sticking point. If so, invite the fear to really come in and do your worst, really just arms open wide. Notice that it is all Experiencing, All Life, and that there is no separate "You" in ANY of it. Just a thought about a "You", that's all.

Talk to me and tell me how I can help you hone in this investigation and end this nonsense once and for all

with Love

9:01pm
Lisa Chiles

Hi Neil,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. You said it all so clearly above when you said Just keep simply noticing that there is no actual self there that it is happening to. I will

"I" had the belief that "I" must be believing in the separate self because "I" have been unconsciously attached to all of these fearful thoughts. What a relief to know that fear can arise and it is not because I am unconscious but rather it is just arising and it gets to be there.

I would be very interested in any exercises on sticking points!

The fear will be allowed to be there. It wreaks the most havoc when I am trying to work and focus. It is definitely harder to focus when the mind is going crazy!

You have been a great help to me in this investigation. I am going to answer the questions now that you sent me. You can determine if there is no longer a belief in the separate self! I thought I had to be rid of the fear!!

Love,
Lisa

10:15pm
Lisa Chiles

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

No, there is no me, I, or you—just a bunch of memories, thoughts and beliefs posing as me!

1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
Good question! Old habit—unconsciously falling back into a sense of I.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The separate self is a conglomeration of thoughts, beliefs, memories, and old conditioning that feel like there is a me, separate from the direct experience of life. When there is a belief in the separate self, thoughts are believed and are unchecked for validity. It can be very painful to live this way. Thoughts come and go but when we believe them, especially the fearful ones, we live in pain.
The belief in the separate self started the day I was born! Conditioning, stories that seemed real, thoughts, and memories all gathered over time to create this sense of me. Without the knowledge that there is another way—living in direct experience, I was subject to a life of believing thoughts and seeing the world through that filter.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.

It feels freeing because there is a sense of a greater space from which to live—not just being trapped in the mind. Thoughts and feelings can just arise, even when they are incredibly intense, and are allowed to be there without trying to get rid of them. Feelings are felt. When directly experiencing, life feels simple, calmer. There is no analysis, simple movement, just being. Direct experience does not mean that everything is calm, however, it contains all experiences.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Living life with the belief in the separate self is like living in a box. When you only reference thought for living, it is very confining and limiting. We live though our judgments of others, our projections, and our beliefs. We construct a false me.
There is a much more open and spacious way to live where thoughts are allowed to arise and simply be there and feelings are felt. After investigating where this I is, it is realized that it can’t be found. There is no concrete I that can be found, no seer, only the seen. No thinker, only thoughts. There is no separation in life. Everything is just arising. What is really cool is to realize that thoughts don’t control us, they actually arise after the inspiration to do something, so there is no doer! Thoughts really aren’t in control. We can relax into life rather than try to create life.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

When I investigated the separate self and couldn’t find it, it was obvious that it didn’t exist. However, there was so much fear arising, that it was hard to not believe in the separate self. It felt as though the separate self was creating this fear. With Neil’s guidance, it was realized that intense fear can be present and just allowed. There is no separate self that is fearful. Fear is arising. What a relief!

6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?

Before seeing, there was an I who thought it was in control and could make everything happen. How exhausting! The moment of seeing was quite simple that life happens, but not to “me”. After seeing, everything arises and there is no separation between life and me. There is no me.

7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?

Most simply, everything gets to arise, be felt in the body, and be. It doesn’t mean that life is peaceful and blissful. Life is just is it is.

what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?

With laughter! Direct experience is the teacher which proves there is no cult!

9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

Neil, you have been such a great guide. What was most effective for me was your willingness to hang in there when there was so much fear. You really pointed the way to seeing that there is no separate self even when the fear was so intense.
Love,
Lisa

Thursday
1:44am
Neil Jalaldeen

Lisa,

wonderful. Love your answers, but just THREE quick and direct question.

Are there ANY DOUBTS AT ALL about seeing through the separate self / separation?

Is it clear that there is just Experiencing? just Life? with no separate "I" that does, controls, and feels, and no "You" that lives?

Is it clear that "self" / I / me, are just thoughts?

and...

"I would be very interested in any exercises on sticking points!"

We can discuss this later - for now let's just focus on confirming there has been this SHIFT for you, and there are NO DOUBTS about it.

with Love.

Friday
10:03pm
Lisa Chiles

No, there is no doubt about seeing through the separate self. The fears are relaxing. There is an awareness that "I" thoughts just arise and pass easier.

Yes, it is clear there is just experiencing. This doesn't mean that "I" thoughts don't pop up and come and go.

Yes, it is very clear that the self is just thoughts. It's fun to notice that now as the mind can relax and not run the stories. It appears as though so many stories from the past are just not arising as much anymore. A relaxation of the mind is occuring.

I am SOOO grateful to you. Thank you for your loving guidance.

Love,
Lisa

10:57pm
Neil Jalaldeen

Wonderful Lisa I have to give this conversation for review to the other guides. Would it be alright if I pasted our conversation so far back in to our original LU forum conversation?

Today
8:08am
Lisa Chiles

Yes.