Looking for my self

[Andrew1]

One more thought just arose. The most I can say is that I am filled not with increasing certainty about my own nature but with increasing doubt.I even doubt whether or not I can be honest about it. If I was able to be self-dishonest for four decades then how can I possibly know what it even means to be self-honest?

You need to look at what you have thought for the last 4 decades.How as each year passes you make more and more false assumptions about life.How you label everything instead of seeing it for what it is e.g. it's a rainy day so it's horrible.No...it's just a rainy day.The plants love it.Look at it honestly.See that this is what makes us unhappy.Your pre conditioned thoughts...someone elses thoughts that you have adopted.Look at your conditioning honestly.Does that make sense...think about this question HONESTLY.

How is it possible to learn without an example of self honesty that I can reference?.Is this what I am learning? Is there anything I have assumed true in the past that actually is?

As above.Almost everything you do is a lie that has been taught to you from an early age.Look at "what is" and not at what you have been taught to think is.What is is everywhere around you right now.That's the difference.When you see this you will see that the "I" has no place in it.Don't get me wrong,you will still have opinons like "it's raining,the weather is crap" but you will see that it is just an opinion and nothing more.

I feel like the only thing I know for sure is that I am.

Yes..."AM".No "I"

Cheers
Andrew

[Calyx]

Hi Andrew,
I have a dog. I have contemplated how he must experience the world before. Often when I just sit with him I enter into that space of being without language. Just perception. It's something we do together that I suppose is as close as I get to meditation these days. He is a good teacher.

Anyway, That happened on the bus on the way to work this morning. I was noticing the automaticity of my actions on the walk to the bus. By the time i got to work there was a feeling of expansive stillness that lasted for about an hour. I gave my morning status report and did a little software work from that space. I walked into the the men's room where someone was taking a massive dump. There was an odor but it didn't "stink". Funny but true.

The feeling faded as lovingly as it arose. I got distracted and drawn into work-think. Perhaps I didn't give it a chance to remain. To just be it longer. I might have been more productive. I have been getting dangerously bored with my job. But the stillness had no room for boredom, everything seemed fresh. No mind... acting. It is quite beautiful.

That was actually the second time that has happened at work. The first was a few weeks ago before we started talking.

One thing occurred to me afterward. It felt quite special, for lack if a better word. However, I remember reading that its not really supposed to feel special at all. Just natural. While there was a naturalness about it there was also a freshness that perhaps felt special because of its unfamiliarity. I would love to remain there forever but I don't know if I was ever there at all.

Clark

[Andrew1]

Hi Andrew,
I have a dog. I have contemplated how he must experience the world before. Often when I just sit with him I enter into that space of being without language. Just perception.

And how did life look to you when you are there?.Did you notice?.Is it just a relaxed feeling or something more?

He is a good teacher.

Yes,they are

Anyway, That happened on the bus on the way to work this morning. I was noticing the automaticity of my actions on the walk to the bus.

Good,keep looking at that

By the time i got to work there was a feeling of expansive stillness that lasted for about an hour. I gave my morning status report and did a little software work from that space.

While there did you see any difference in how you percieved things...thoughts,actions,self etc?

I walked into the the men's room where someone was taking a massive dump. There was an odor but it didn't "stink". Funny but true.

LOL..I don't think liberation will change anything there mate.

The feeling faded as lovingly as it arose. I got distracted and drawn into work-think. Perhaps I didn't give it a chance to remain. To just be it longer. I might have been more productive. I have been getting dangerously bored with my job. But the stillness had no room for boredom, everything seemed fresh. No mind... acting. It is quite beautiful.

Cool...but was this just a feeling of contentment?.Did you see "no I" when this was happening?.Were you still operating from the I mechanism?.Think about it,be honest.Remeber you are looking for a false I.Is this what happened or just a "bliss" moment.What you are looking for is the I "illusion".

That was actually the second time that has happened at work. The first was a few weeks ago before we started talking.

This is why I ask the question above.Question it.Take it apart honestly and tell me what you think.

One thing occurred to me afterward. It felt quite special, for lack if a better word. However, I remember reading that its not really supposed to feel special at all. Just natural. While there was a naturalness about it there was also a freshness that perhaps felt special because of its unfamiliarity. I would love to remain there forever but I don't know if I was ever there at all.

Again though,was it just a "blissful" moment or did it come from seeing the illusion of an "I".As much as you liked it do you still think there's an entity involved.If you saw the truth you would know it.Look at it.
Remember that some people pop,others ease into it.Some people feel great elation and others don't feel much change at all so don't presuppose what it might be like.Everyones different.What you will have is an understanding.With me it took a load off my shoulders and I felt on top of the world for a few weeks even though it was'nt a big deal when I saw it.You may have the same or you may say "wow that was'nt much was it".But you will realise that it is life changing.

Cheers
Andrew

[Calyx]

Sorry I dropped off the radar yesterday. It was hectic. I think that one of the things holding me back from seeing my identity as it is (not) is that often there is so much els going on that needs attending to that I get distracted from the enquiry. I forget to notice the lack of I in living.

If I had proper self realization I would probably know that nothing needs attending to, and that all attempts to do so are fiction. But still, attention wanders distracted by this and that.

I almost wish that I had either a simpler life or a period where I could focus on nothing but this. It feels like I am not giving it enough effort, which is troubling because it is on my mind almost every spare moment. But I fear that those spare moments have been too few lately.

Regarding the episode at work it seemed like a period of experience without any I. There was no judgement only experience (hence the bathroom incident; merely an odor, not stink). The illusory nature of I didn't occur to me because it almost made no sense to acknowledge that it was ever anything else.

I remember the first time someone told me there was no Santa. I wasn't sad at all. Of course there was no Santa. I was just shocked that someone had said it aloud. I don't remember ever believing in Santa. Likewise, at work I didn't need to remember that I ever thought there was a me. There was just what was. Thought was there, but witnessed not owned. Its hard to describe. Perhaps it was mind games and just a blissful moment. But that's not how it seemed.

I have also wondered if I already know there is Last night my wife asked me if I were to draw a representation of me what would it look like. The question didn't even make sense. I could not imagine creating a representation of myself in any artistic medium. Perhaps silence would be the closest but even silence ends eventually. It made me wonder if I am already through the gate (whatever that means) but just don't know it.

I look for self and see nothing. However, the I sense is there and I still feel like I am speaking from it. Thought still seems personal. It feels like I had a moment if clarity but the habit of personhood is too stubborn to drop away permanently.

Clark

[Calyx]

I was sitting on the roof picking out the moss and throwing it onto the garden. A thought arose that self identity is little more than the minds recognition of patterns in memory. The mind is excellent in recognizing patterns in all perceptions. When it recognizes a pattern in memory (like I am a good listener, or I am a faithful husband) it calls that pattern me. The me doesn't actually exist any more than the recognition of many birds flying together makes a flock exist. Is just recognition of patterns.

Recognition is what actually exists, not the pattern. The pattern is just information. Information does not even exist without the recognition of it. There is recognition but no personal recognizer. The recognizer is the information.

Recognition happens now. Recognition of the false past implied by the patterns recognized in memory. Recognition of the false future implied by patterns recognized in speculative thought. All happening only now.

[Andrew1]

Sorry I dropped off the radar yesterday. It was hectic. I think that one of the things holding me back from seeing my identity as it is (not) is that often there is so much els going on that needs attending to that I get distracted from the enquiry. I forget to notice the lack of I in living.

Yes,it is something you need to keep focused on at the moment

If I had proper self realization I would probably know that nothing needs attending to, and that all attempts to do so are fiction. But still, attention wanders distracted by this and that.

You will still get distracted after liberation.The world has a strong attraction and to the "I" and will always be trying to pull you back into illusion.

I almost wish that I had either a simpler life or a period where I could focus on nothing but this. It feels like I am not giving it enough effort, which is troubling because it is on my mind almost every spare moment. But I fear that those spare moments have been too few lately.

See if you can find a way to remind yourself to focus on what's happening around you...a trigger

Regarding the episode at work it seemed like a period of experience without any I. There was no judgement only experience (hence the bathroom incident; merely an odor, not stink). The illusory nature of I didn't occur to me because it almost made no sense to acknowledge that it was ever anything else.

Ok,elaborate a bit more about it for me.Let's see what you had.

I remember the first time someone told me there was no Santa. I wasn't sad at all. Of course there was no Santa. I was just shocked that someone had said it aloud. I don't remember ever believing in Santa. Likewise, at work I didn't need to remember that I ever thought there was a me. There was just what was. Thought was there, but witnessed not owned. Its hard to describe. Perhaps it was mind games and just a blissful moment. But that's not how it seemed.

How did you see your actions at this time.How did you see life happening around you,other people etc.

I have also wondered if I already know there is Last night my wife asked me if I were to draw a representation of me what would it look like. The question didn't even make sense. I could not imagine creating a representation of myself in any artistic medium.

How do you see "me" now.What part is it playing in your life?.

It made me wonder if I am already through the gate (whatever that means) but just don't know it.

Maybe.Explain to me how you see reality?



I look for self and see nothing. However, the I sense is there and I still feel like I am speaking from it. Thought still seems personal. It feels like I had a moment if clarity but the habit of personhood is too stubborn to drop away permanently.

It will fight you all the way Clark.You have been living with the false self for most of your life.The "you" will never dissapear completely.Now is the time to focus and look at life and reality.Real life not assumptions from previous conditioning.You seem very close and may have had a glimpse so don't stop now.Look at how life is "really" operating and not through the veil of your conditioned mind.What so you see as truth?.

Andrew

[Andrew1]

I was sitting on the roof picking out the moss and throwing it onto the garden. A thought arose that self identity is little more than the minds recognition of patterns in memory.The mind is excellent in recognizing patterns in all perceptions. When it recognizes a pattern in memory (like I am a good listener, or I am a faithful husband) it calls that pattern me. The me doesn't actually exist any more than the recognition of many birds flying together makes a flock exist. Is just recognition of patterns.

Right.You still recognize things but there is no one recognising it.It's just recognition,It's just being.What other examples do you have of patterns ( conditioning ) that are labelled "I"?.



Recognition is what actually exists, not the pattern. The pattern is just information. Information does not even exist without the recognition of it. There is recognition but no personal recognizer. The recognizer is the information.

Recognition happens now. Recognition of the false past implied by the patterns recognized in memory. Recognition of the false future implied by patterns recognized in speculative thought. All happening only now.

Yes,it's all false thoughts,false conditiong.Look at life as it's happening and see that you are making judgements due to prior conditioning instead of looking at the reality of it.Can you see that now?.

[Calyx]

You asked how do I see "me" and how do I see reality.

How can I see myself? How can water wet itself? How can a knife cut itself? How can a mirror ball reflect itself? I can't say that I even understand the question. What is there to regard when I can find nothing regardable?

It's all so clear intellectually but not experientially. I recognize that every belief about this life emerges from social and hereditary conditioning: language, mannerisms, beliefs, personality, even the desire to know truth. I don't know if any amount of verbalizing (mentally or otherwise) will get me to the heart of it. I probably need to experience it. Stop seeking intellectually and just seek experientially. Im not sure how.

There were those few tastes of it that I described. But I don't know if that was the real deal or just my mind feeding me phenomena in hopes of temporarily placating the habit of enquiry. I know better than to chase phenomena. But still, i am easily distracted.

How do I see reality? I have long understood that nothing is unreal or unnatural. All that exists in reality is of reality. The only "unreality" is untrue beliefs, and even those beliefs are real beliefs (though they are untrue). Everything exists within reality and within nature. Even this idea, true or not.

Seeing the falsity of the illusion of self is so ambitious it must be simple. But I feel frustrated by it; doubtful that any real transformation will occur. Mooji once said "Freedom is not FOR you, its FROM you". I understood that to mean that "I" do not have the capacity for liberation. Only that which is already free can be so. At this point I would gladly be free from "me" (fully aware of the irony of that statement) if I could. But honestly, I don't know what liberation means. And ultimately, I don't know if my desire for it is strong enough to make it happen. Still I am compelled to ask "who's desire?"

Minute to minute I feel no differently.I look for myself in every action and see nothing. The hands and face shave themselves. The legs walk themselves. Thoughts come and go. But still I feel like I am the speaker in my head; like my mind is composing this post. I feel like I am looking for the beginning of a circle; understanding intellectually that it has no beginning but still not believing it. I don't think I am done baking yet.

Clark

[Andrew1]

You asked how do I see "me" and how do I see reality.

How can I see myself? How can water wet itself? How can a knife cut itself? How can a mirror ball reflect itself? I can't say that I even understand the question. What is there to regard when I can find nothing regardable?

Exactly

It's all so clear intellectually but not experientially. I recognize that every belief about this life emerges from social and hereditary conditioning: language, mannerisms, beliefs, personality, even the desire to know truth. I don't know if any amount of verbalizing (mentally or otherwise) will get me to the heart of it. I probably need to experience it. Stop seeking intellectually and just seek experientially. Im not sure how.

You need to look at life as it's happening in this moment and see that there is no you involved in any part of it.Even simple things like brushing your teeth.See how it is just happening without a you.Look at each detail from picking up your toothbrush to putting toothpaste on it to putting it in your mouth to brushing.See how it is just happening...you're not thinking it into action.

There were those few tastes of it that I described. But I don't know if that was the real deal or just my mind feeding me phenomena in hopes of temporarily placating the habit of enquiry. I know better than to chase phenomena. But still, i am easily distracted.
You said you saw things happening without a you involved right?.If so then you would have seen everything just rolling along.Did you notice no "I's" in people around you.Look and you will see conditioning in them very clearly.

How do I see reality? I have long understood that nothing is unreal or unnatural. All that exists in reality is of reality. The only "unreality" is untrue beliefs, and even those beliefs are real beliefs (though they are untrue). Everything exists within reality and within nature. Even this idea, true or not.

Reality is'nt some magical thing that needs to be conjured up.Reality is in front of you right now but your conditioning and beliefs which created a false you is distorting it.I did it today myself.I argued with a workmate over the stupidest thing because my prior conditioning wanted me to be right instead of looking at the reality of the situation ( note: seeing the truth is one thing,living it 24/7 is different again.There is still a lot of work after liberation. ).Look at what is true and question yourself "am I seeing it truely or am I distorting it from my false self".

Seeing the falsity of the illusion of self is so ambitious it must be simple. But I feel frustrated by it; doubtful that any real transformation will occur. Mooji once said "Freedom is not FOR you, its FROM you".

It means from a "false" you.From "a you" that you think exists.It can't be for you because you don't exist.

But honestly, I don't know what liberation means.

It means liberation from your false thoughts and beliefs about how life is operating.

And ultimately, I don't know if my desire for it is strong enough to make it happen. Still I am compelled to ask "who's desire?"

No ones.Desire is just an emotion.Being human you have to naturally have emotions.

Minute to minute I feel no differently.I look for myself in every action and see nothing.

That's it Clark.There's nothing there.

The hands and face shave themselves. The legs walk themselves. Thoughts come and go. But still I feel like I am the speaker in my head; like my mind is composing this post.

It is composing this.Mind is real,thoughts are real but as you see there is no you behind them.No entity.They just come up then go just as quickly.If there was a you I'm sure you would stop most of them.That's the clue.I have a speaker in my head but is just thoughts which happen to come up.Your mind can look at these thoughts and say "what a load of shit" because that is what most are.Random bullshit from your past.

I feel like I am looking for the beginning of a circle; understanding intellectually that it has no beginning but still not believing it. I don't think I am done baking yet.

You seem to have a grasp of no self.Now look at the things happening around you from that perspective.Look at others as well as yourself and see how you're living a false life based upon your false beliefs and past conditioning.Question everything.Look at real life and not through your deluded perspective.I gave you an e.g. above from my own story today.Look at a disagreement you may have had and look behind it.Were you defending some false belief?.

Cheers
Andrew

[Calyx]

I don't have a lot of disagreements or arguments. And I almost never get angry. I am generally open to evaluate other people's view point without taking anything personally. I can count the exceptions on one hand and still have fingers down.

I watched the patterns of people going about life, involved in their roles: genders, races, classes, careers - defined by it. I see it in me. So scripted by expectation of how I am "supposed to" behave. "Supposed", what a terrible word.

Last night I was petting my dog and began looking at what was actually there; broke it down. I traced the chain of perception from object to sense to interpretation to recognition and could find no me between any of it. There is no me at the end of the perceptual chain watching perception as if it were on a movie screen. There is only the chain: focusing, detection, transmission, processing, recognition.

I understand now. "I" am a thought that plays like a tune stuck in the mind. "I" am the reference thought (memory, language, conditioning, recognition, etc) that gives context to all other thoughts. But I emerge out of stillness to happen just like any other thought.

I'm probably not going to be one of those who "pop" as you described. The recognition of this is still a faint understanding but it grows firmer as I keep looking. I need to remind myself often.

In the midst of it all is a stillness that I have noticed before but never suspected that it wasn't just absent-mindedness. Now I am thinking that it may be mindless presence itself. However, I only notice it when I remember my empty nature. I don't yet feel like this is life changing. Perhaps I am not yet fully immersed in the idea.

[Andrew1]

[quote="Calyx"]I don't have a lot of disagreements or arguments. And I almost never get angry. I am generally open to evaluate other people's view point without taking anything personally. I can count the exceptions on one hand and still have fingers down.

I watched the patterns of people going about life, involved in their roles: genders, races, classes, careers - defined by it. I see it in me. So scripted by expectation of how I am "supposed to" behave. "Supposed", what a terrible word.

Wonderful,now you are seeing the false fabric of conditioning.You're seeing how you are living your life as defined by other peoples false expectations.Now look through that "supposedness" and see how to live life "naturally" without illusion.

Last night I was petting my dog and began looking at what was actually there; broke it down. I traced the chain of perception from object to sense to interpretation to recognition and could find no me between any of it. There is no me at the end of the perceptual chain watching perception as if it were on a movie screen. There is only the chain: focusing, detection, transmission, processing, recognition.

Good,this is all that is happening but we've been conditioned to insert a "me" in there which is what stuffs the whole thing up.

I understand now. "I" am a thought that plays like a tune stuck in the mind. "I" am the reference thought (memory, language, conditioning, recognition, etc) that gives context to all other thoughts. But I emerge out of stillness to happen just like any other thought.

Yes,that's all "you" are...a thought

I'm probably not going to be one of those who "pop" as you described. The recognition of this is still a faint understanding but it grows firmer as I keep looking. I need to remind myself often.

This is when you need to focus.Remember when you get it you still won't be living it 24/7 unless you're very focused.This process is just getting you to see the truth.There's still a lot of work after that to live it fully.

In the midst of it all is a stillness that I have noticed before but never suspected that it wasn't just absent-mindedness. Now I am thinking that it may be mindless presence itself. However, I only notice it when I remember my empty nature. I don't yet feel like this is life changing. Perhaps I am not yet fully immersed in the idea.

Cool,focus on that stillness.That emptiness.Take time to watch life happening from that stillness ( no "I") place without judging or forming an opinion ( conditioned thoughts ).Sit in a park and look at how it's rolling along regardless of the apparent "me's" controlling it.People playing,dogs running,birds flying,grass growing.No "me's" just rolling along.Even look at your own movements from there ( no controller ).

Cheers
Andrew

[Calyx]

I was eating lunch today at my favorite Indian joint. typically I eat while looking at Facebook or reading stuff on Kindle. Today I just ate. I noticed how the body-mind could eat a whole meal without my involvement. I notice how the flavor and texture of the food didn't need me to taste of feel them in order to be what they were. I don't have a lot of the day when I can be in this without having to deal with work and social demands. Lunch was my "sitting at the park".

But there is one thing tou said i disnt understand. What do you mean when you say "look through that supposedness"?

[Andrew1]

[quote="Calyx"]I was eating lunch today at my favorite Indian joint. typically I eat while looking at Facebook or reading stuff on Kindle.

This is probaly one of the worst things to take you away from real living while trying to get liberated.It's distracting you.

Today I just ate. I noticed how the body-mind could eat a whole meal without my involvement. I notice how the flavor and texture of the food didn't need me to taste of feel them in order to be what they were.

That's it.Everything is just happening on it's own but your mind is trying to take credit for it.

I don't have a lot of the day when I can be in this without having to deal with work and social demands. Lunch was my "sitting at the park".

I'm thinking this is your main problem Clark.It takes real commitment to see the truth.It's not a part time thing.If your job requires a lot of concentration then it can be very difficult.No fault of yours.



But there is one thing tou said i disnt understand. What do you mean when you say "look through that supposedness"?


Ok,an e.g.You were taught to eat your meals with a knife and fork.That is "supposed" to be the correct way to eat."WHY?".Why can't you just pick up your food with your hands.It's a false conditioning and everyone is living by it.If someone uses their fingers people say "what bad manners".It's not bad manners,it's how you prefer to eat your meal at that moment.Freedom.They are conditioned into the illusion.Do you see that mate.Look through that illusion and feel the freedom of living a true and natural life instead of being in chains.Look through all those "supposed" things as they are only someone else rules anyway.Again,look at life and how you should be living it and not how someone has hypnotized you into living it.When you see through that you will know instantly.It will be "my God,I've been living someone elses lie".LOOK.


Cheers
Andrew

[Calyx]

Yes, I already understand that it's all social conditioning: eating, dress, speech, morals, attraction, everything. I have understood that for a long time. I wanted to go deeper than that.

Every two or three nights I find myself awake at 4am with nothing but liberation on my mind. I'll either get up or lie there and focus on the source of my identity for an hour or so before falling asleep. I find these times the most focused of all. Last night I awoke and got up. I laid on the floor and gave myself in to the question "who wants liberation?".

I began to see that even the inner voice used to ask the question, it's particular character and temperament, are a product of that supposedness. It is supposed to be that way in order to remain consistent with conclusions drawn about myself from memories. I can know of no other way to ask because I am limited by a limited mind. The limited asking for the limitless.

Trying to get beyond that I tried to ask from my heart instead. I have never been a very heart focused person so it did not come naturally. When I arise there was nothing but stillness in everything. In this stillness I could feel how the voice that asks the question is as undirected as the heart pumping blood. I went back to bed and fell asleep asking who is it that falls asleep.

You're right though. My life right now is segmented by a highly intellectual career that takes up most of the day. I write the android app for Rhapsody music. During the work day it takes almost all of my focus. But as soon as I am finished the enquiry begins. It is a part time thing unfortunately. However, my wife and I will be heading to Spain on Nov 8-24. I hope that the break from intellectual intensity will allow a more sustained focus. I'm sure the change of scene will be good too. I will still be online.

[Calyx]

Let me elaborate on that last post. I really do understand that I am nothing more than a label for the gestalt of perceptual filters feeding memory and the artificially self consistent conclusions that have been drawn from their analysis. I have always been a natural atheist so the prospect that I lack anything resembling a personal "soul" has always seemed intuitive to me. However, before now I have never actually looked to find out. I have merely taken its absence as a matter of faith, or an intellectual likelihood.

At the same time this "label" does have a subject. I can talk about myself, my personal tendencies, habits, interests, memories, etc. The subject of "me" is as real to me as any well studied subject, for like everyone, I have mastered my own subject matter. The interesting thing about this process is simply recognizing myself for what I am, subject matter. As such, "I" am entirely transitory, constantly under revision, and ultimately ephemeral. I am entirely comfortable with that.

However, what I am hoping to get out of this is an identity that exists beyond my personified gestalt, rather than identifying with an idea; with subject matter. Is this the direction this enquiry is headed or is the acknowledgement that I am merely content the end of it?