Help Needed

[NontheisticBuddhist]

Gah! I messed up using the quote function. The post is meant to start with the quote "Are any of these sensations and thoughts personal?"

[NontheisticBuddhist]

Ah! I messed up using the quote function. The post is meant to begin with "Are any of these sensations and thoughts personal?

[cosmiK]

Jason,

1) can YOU think and choose a thought?

2) is there any separation between these objects and stuff you describe such as "body, brain, planets, solar system"?

3) what is the "I" / "me" ?

2) do you exist?

[NontheisticBuddhist]

I can pick and choose a thought.

There is no separation of any of it, everything is just made up of the universe. And everything is it's own role to play, the rock and the person alike. And it's such a convincing role, such a job well done, that they've convinced themselves.

"I"/"me" is nothing. I'm just a set of neurons sending pulses back and forth. I don't exist any more than the mind an apple exists, or the mind of a rock. "I" is just how my brain makes sense of everything, but ultimately we're all the same, no me, no you, just energy.

[cosmiK]

Jason,

explain exactly how that works? if there is no you/me/i, then how do YOU pick a thought? where is this picker and chooser of thoughts in your direct experience?

I'm not sure if you are answering from your direct experience. you are talking about rocks and apples, and neurons, and brains... but these seem like your thoughts and analysis. you are saying everything is just made up of the universe? ok... how do you determine this? from a cool 'spiritual' idea? or are direct experiencing this? what is this 'energy' and how are you validating this claim?

where are you at with this investigation exactly?

[NontheisticBuddhist]

Hmm... Well it's really not an easy thing to put into words honestly. It's not ME picking the thought, I suppose, it's my mind. Well, in a way all I am is my mind... I'm my mind and nothing else. I am simply a product of the blind energy that makes up the universe. What is the energy? I don't know... It's everything in the universe! I guess you could call it god, if you wanted, but it's more than the conventional sense of "god". Western conventional "god" created the universe for the Earth, and hes a big man in the sky with a beard. This "god" isn't that. This god is the sum of the energy in the universe. But whatever it is, we are all it, and so is everything ever, and so we're all the same. Ultimately if you break down what man is you could say primate, mammal, and so on, categorizing it by what is similar to man. But go further and further. Atomically, subatomically, etc. Ultimately all we are is the energy of the universe playing our role so convincingly that we forgot we don't even exist!

I really think I get it. It's just so very difficult to put down into words. The thing that made it most clear to me is that just as an environment without humans would clearly go through generations and generations changing based on mechanical processes, an environment with humans would do the same. We're the same! Just like a robot that doesn't know it's a robot. It thinks it something with purpose, with meaning, constantly striving to be something meaningful, without realizing that it is an expression of the universe and already perfect, because its playing its role in the grand scheme of things, down to the finest detail, because its role is based on its actions. So it can't go wrong! No matter what it does, it simply can't be wrong. It's all so oddly obvious, and yet hidden.

[cosmiK]

Jason,

It is hard to tell anything about what you are saying because you are not referring to direct Experience. You are being philosophical. Regardless... let's make this simple...

Are you saying you have seen through the illusion of the self?

is there a separate self anywhere? in any form? was there ever? will there ever be?

in what is being Experienced, is there a separate Experience-er? or is there just a seamless Experience that is divided in to "experience-er" + "what is experienced"?

Look right now in your direct Experience, and refer and report on your Direct Experience... if there is no separate self that is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking and doing, then what is there?

(again... I just want your DIRECT EXPERIENCE, not a long drawn experience... write from your Direct NOW Experience)

[NontheisticBuddhist]

I have seen through the illusion of the self.

There was never any separate self and there never will be, in any form.

In what is being experienced there is no separate experience-er, simply a seamless experience that is divided into experience-er and experienced.

There is no separate self that is seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, and doing, and so there is no separate self at all; nothing. The separate self does not exist.

There is no separate self that is seeing ,hearing, feeling, thinking, and doing. And so there is no separate self; no

[cosmiK]

Jason,

okay. It's just my job to make sure that this seeing is from the core, and not just an intellectual one (as that is not Awakening from the self, just merely an intellectual understanding), so bare with me as I question all angles.

could you describe to me what changed, when, and the difference before seeing this, and now that you have seen it?

basically... what is the difference between when you first posted here, and now, and what the change was inbetween that caused you to see through the illusion?

[NontheisticBuddhist]

I was watching that Alan Watts video when he said something that just made me realize it. First I realized that humans were nothing special. Then I realized the human brain was nothing special. Then I realized that the ego, the me, the voice in my head, was actually caused by that un-special brain of mine, and that the ego didn't really exist, and so I don't really exist.

It came at me all at once, and for a minute I had the most pure bliss I could have ever imagined. Then it faded to near-pure bliss for about 45 min. Then a bit of time where I was very happy.

And now that I've seen this, what's changed? Well almost everything. Anything I do I see differently. When I think something I realize I'm just playing the role of Jason. When I see people act certain ways, it seems to me that they're just acting their roles. And senses too. When I get cold, it's no longer ME that gets cold, I don't exist, how could I? What it's more like is as though Jason is getting cold and relaying what that's like to the me. Like a movie that you don't just watch, but that you fully experience in every way.

[cosmiK]

:)

Okay. A few more checks, as again, my main goal is to make sure that you are through. Again, answer from your direct Experience, which means LOOK Now... no speculation. ChECK from Experience, and then report.

In all that arises, does it arise to anyone, or any-thing?

If there is no self, then what is aware?

[NontheisticBuddhist]

In all that arises, does it arise to anyone, or any-thing... I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. Are you asking if what arose to me during my realization could arise to and apply to anything? If so, then yes.

If there is no self, then what is aware... That is a very good question. A very very very good question. The obvious answer is that the energy of the universe is aware.

[cosmiK]

Jason,

I'm asking you in this moment, in all that is experienced, or arising in experience, is it arising to anyone, or any-thing?

In this moment, do you Experience directly this 'energy of the universe' that is aware?

[NontheisticBuddhist]

In this moment, in all that is experienced, or arising in experience, it is not really arising to anyone. There's no-one for it to arise to.

In this moment I don't know if I experience this energy that is aware. I'm fully aware of it, and I can see it in myself and around me in many things, but I'm not sure if I'm directly experiencing the energy that is aware itself.

[cosmiK]

Okay,

let's try a different approach. Here is an experiment that you can do. Spend some time doing it slowly:


When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them with your index finger.


Point at the room and all its colors and shapes (observe for 15 seconds)


point to your keyboard (observe for 15 seconds)


point to your knee (observe for 15 seconds)


point to your chest (observe for 15 seconds)


>>In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.<<


Now point where others see your face and eyes (observe for 15 seconds)


What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?


So have a try at this exercise, and tell me what you experienced and felt, and get back to me tomorrow night. We need to make sure your seeing is something direct, and not just an intellectual grasp.