The Gate

the context of the word coherence was actually meant to be:

united as or forming a whole

rather than:

able to speak clearly and logically

can you see how language messes the whole thing up :)

Ha! -

not sure about that :L sounds like another expectation before enlightenment chop wood carry water after enlightenment chop wood carry water

Yes, there is an expectation but, I'm not entirely sure what it is that's being expected.There is this feeling that something 'needs' to be resolved, again - not sure what!

Okay cool, so what would be available if your wife didn't have to suffer so much pain? Again this can be a state or mind or an emotional state. What would be available if your children were happy? healthy? had good jobs? What's the feeling or thought associated with this? What would have happened of you got to spend more time with mum and dad? What does it make available? If it is a feeling, where is the feeling (located)? If it is a thought, where is the thought (located)? What does finding some kind of outlet to express creativity say about the kind of person that you are? How does it resonate with you? What are you left with?

Er!!! Blimey!!!... :) A feeling of being at peace, not having to worry, being more relaxed...contented....back to those 'childhood' feelings of the times when everything was a joy....the 'good old days!' That's what I imagine would be available. The feeling of being at ease with life appears to be 'located' as a tingling sensation through-out the body...this space here! - He points to the body.

"What does finding some kind of outlet to express creativity say about the kind of person that you are? How does it resonate with you?"- There is this feeling/desire/need to express 'something', to be creative but, a kind of never being exactly sure how. Also, now that you mention it, why is there even the presence of this desie to
express/create?....Is it some sort of compensation for the feelings of there being something missing? "What are you left with?" = An uncomfortable feeling through-out the body, a desire to be rid of the uncomfortable feeling and feeling that by being creative this will somehow fill or take over the feeling of something being missing, something like that!

You say the sense of me seems to be the body as it is functioning right now, good! So let's try it this way: what is the habitual method of functioning of the body that you believe to be you? What part of living do you identify with most and present to the world as a continuous or fixed way of being?

The habitual method of functioning of this body appears to be running on some sort of learnt behaviour....something happens (a life situation) and this body responds via those learnt patterns of behaviour.

There appears to be a 'me', a personality that has a certain way of being in the world...the feeling that this is who I am and this is the way that I do things or live in the world.

The feeling as though there is something missing seems to be a very large part of how this body (I) FUNCTIONS IN THE WORLD...A constant seeking/looking/being curious....the feeling that a resolution to the seeking needs to come to an end.

The context of the word coherence was actually meant to be: united as or forming a whole rather than: able to speak clearly and logically, can you see how language messes the whole thing up :)

It appears that language is being used as a tool to try to put together what are being perceived as many parts to make a whole...we'll, when it comes to 'seeking' anyway, as though language is being used to try to make sense of the world or 'my' place in it. I have read that the word is not the thing, okay, but without the word then whatever is being perceived has no meaning other than it's own presence, and without the words everything is simpy as it is - indescribable....'beyond' description....and it's as though there is a seeking (from the seekers 'perspective') to somehow do the impossible - give a descrition of the indescribable. :)
Mark...thanks for that...your questions appears to trigger some sort of focus of attention into 'something' not usually explored - This actual sense of this body being here and how it appears to function in it's surroundings/environment.

Excellent, so you are seeking "being at peace, relaxation, contentment and joy" and avoiding an uncomfortable feeling that something is missing.

There appears to be a you and beyond the way you do things in the world, there is an attachment to a "feeling" or "thought" of "you, youness, or beingness" - an emotional state or state of mind, right?

In childhood you heard about this "I, me or self" that was running the show and you will have looked for it and you will have imagined you found it.

You will have believed it like you believed in Santa or ghosts.

Can you remember what it felt like when you first encountered it?

What did it feel like to be you way back then?

Forgetting everything you know about Advaita, Enlightenment or Non-Duality, what was it like?

Get in touch with that please and report back.

So you are seeking "being at peace, relaxation, contentment and joy" and avoiding an uncomfortable feeling that something is missing.

Since you put it that way, yes! So, I guess that's what I've really been looking for, somewhere along the line I have confused trying to be at peace with 'getting/finding' this thing called enlightenment in the hope that that 'state/
experience' would somehow put me in a place of contentment/peace. So I was looking to be in a permanent state
of being happy and trying to avoid feeling sad, or at least finding a way to better cope with what I would term the bad times/experiences.

There appears to be a you and beyond the way you do things in the world, there is an attachment to a "feeling" or "thought" of "you, youness, or beingness" - an emotional state or state of mind, right?

Right! There is a feeling that there is a me. If I place my attention on that feeling of me it's as though the usual feeling of me (that contracted feeling of being in here - inside the body) kind of changes (I wouldn't say it disappears) 'into' an observer without anyone or thing 'behind' the observing, as though there is simply the presence of the experience, or there is a perceiving happening and within that perceiving there is the sense of a perceiver, the perceiving and perceived is kind of like one movement-action-presence and included within that there is this sense of me, but that sense of me appears to be part of the whole show.

In childhood you heard about this "I, me or self" that was running the show and you will have looked for it and you will have imagined you found it.

Yes, as though there would have been the thought, "Okay, I see, I'm a ME!"

You will have believed it like you believed in Santa or ghosts.

Right, I mean what did I know, I was just this little child, - "They're saying that I'm this thing called a me and I live in this body, okay then, I get it!"

Can you remember what it felt like when you first encountered it? What did it feel like to be you way back then? Forgetting everything you know about Advaita, Enlightenment or Non-Duality, what was it like? Get in touch with that please and report back.

As though there were already present the sense of being alive or being here or present to experience (the joy of being alive, curious, happy.) and then someone comes along as says - "You are a human being, you have a soul, God created you, if you're good you will go to heaven, if you're bad you will go to hell." etc. Not sure if I'm simply imagining it but the feeling of first accepting that I am a me felt kind of as though I had suddenly been given a location and an identity and now 'had' to try and behave in a certain way in order to survive - get on in the world, -
the feeling of being made solid, aware that I am a something. This feeling of first 'accepting/believing/knowing' that I am a me brings with it a feeling of sadness, AND strangely, LOSS.

Actually - "As though there were already present the sense of being alive or being here or present to experience."
I wonder, before I thought that there was a me, was there simply the presence of Experience and that's all, then after accepting that I am this thing called ME maybe that's when I became the observer - not too sure about this.





Mark....as an aside, yesterday, there was the experience of - You know what, there is simply this body and the thoughts that appear to appear 'within' it and this body has acquired a certain way of doing things and that is what's here, this body and it's functioning- responding to 'external' stimulus.

You are describing a lot of thoughts like "accepting, believing, knowing" and not very many feelings?

What does a feeling of "accepting" feel like?

Can you describe the physical counterpart?

The last part, the aside, is perfect and very useful and exactly where all this is going but lets just finish this last part of groundwork or the table cloth trick won't be as dramatic :L

You are describing a lot of thoughts like "accepting, believing, knowing" and not very many feelings?

Yes, I see what you mean, it's just that I'm so used to trying to work all this out via thinking it through, that trying to describe feelings is a bit alien. I will try though :)

What does a feeling of "accepting" feel like?

It feels like somehow taking 'something' on board, or a weight being attached to the body (placed within it), the body has an extra load to carry, where previous to the idea of there being this other thing called a me that now inhabits the body, everything was so much lighter.

Can you describe the physical counterpart?

Life feels heavier, living as though walking through an invisible mist that gives the feeling of being pushed back or that walking through life is harder because of this mist (which obviously doesn't exist as a physical object, merely a mental construct that somehow the body has 'unconsciously' taken to be present/real) the body behaves as though it is having to push through life instead of the childhood way of simply being as you are without the burden of having to carry around this thing called a me, like I'm forever carrying an invisible me, an imagined me, but having to behave as though the me is real simply because I was told that it existed and have forgotten that the me does not exist, so I'm forever acting as though it does, and it's bloody hard work having to constantly carry around a ten tonne ghost.

The last part, the aside, is perfect and very useful and exactly where all this is going but lets just finish this last part of groundwork or the table cloth trick won't be as dramatic :L

Ha ha! The groundwork has definitely been necessary in order to greater appreciate the unveiling of the party piece, and anyway, without all this groundwork, no way would I have gotten this far, thank you Mark.

Okay now you have gone all visual :-)

I want to get at the "state" - the emotional or mental state of "being an identity" as a child - how did you feel?

sorry that wasn't quite right - how did the "you" feel?

or how did it "feel" to be a you?

some people say "when I look within, at my very core, I AM love" because they find it, feel it and believe it to be who they really are

when you were a child and you heard about this (or some version of this) who were you really?

I know some of this is counter intuitive but I want you to really get at this "me" and see what it is

Okay now you have gone all visual :-) I want to get at the "state" - the emotional or mental state of "being an identity" as a child - How did the "you" feel? Or, how did it "feel" to be a you?

Some people say "When I look within, at my very core, I AM love" because they find it, feel it and believe it to be who they really are.

When you were a child and you heard about this (or some version of this) who were you really?

I know some of this is counter intuitive but I want you to really get at this "me" and see what it is.

The way it felt being a child is exactly the same as the feeling right now -

aware.

There is simply this awareness, it doesn't feel as though the awareness belongs to a me, this awareness is simply present.

If the attention is placed on this sense of me, (WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO BE ME) there doesn't appear to be an actual physical thing that could be got hold off, actually, the sense of me isn't there when looked at, there is simply this awareness, like everything is one 'something', not even 'one', just This, whatever it is.

As though 'everything' is this 'state' of awareness.

There isn't a me that sees, hears, tastes etc, simply the 'presence' of these experiences.

There isn't a me that is getting the body to do this or that, simply THIS BODY BEING AS IT IS.

Experience - the interpretation of sensations...the body interprets its surrondings and calls it experience.
(As though giving interpretation of itself)

As though there is only ever the experience but given a name - sensations/feelings/perception.

Feelings! I can't say anything about them other than they appear to be translantions by the body about sensations.

Mark...honestly, I don't know what to say about what it feels like to be me, I mean, I am unable to give a description of the feeling...when there is an attempt to look at the feeling, the feeling disappears and there is simply this awareness that doesn't appear to have any qualities to it....just awareness, alive, present.

Though, maybe this is not quite true, there does appear to be a constant 'sensation of presence - presence of sensation' in the body....I no longer know what is being said here....ha!

Repetition...trying to hone in on 'something'...what it feels like to be me....PRESENT AND AWARE.

Mark...I have never looked at feelings, 'feeling' - ha, confused! Maybe I have misunderstood what you are asking to be looked at :) If so, could you please rephrase your question....it appears to be a case of my not quite clicking about what you are asking. :)

and when others describe you, when they say "Phil was really being himself, he was in his element" what are they describing?

does that have a sensation?

is there a perceiver, or a doer?

if things are actionable who is taking the actions?

what is that?

And when others describe you, when they say "Phil was really being himself, he was in his element" what are they describing, does that have a sensation?

This is strange, they would be describing what they perceive...Phil being the way he is. They wouldn't know the thoughts and sensations being experienced 'AS' Phil. They simply see/hear the person/body Phil and give a description of what they perceive and also what thay imagine is being experienced by Phil.

But from here, this body, it seems obvious that there is simply THIS BODY AS THE EXPERIENCE. Not the body having an experience or an experience happening to the body, but simply THE BODY-EXPERIENCE, THE PRESENCE OF.

As though this human body appearance IS the Body As a Whole, LIFE/THE UNIVERSE alive/awake/aware - IS THE EXPERIENCE.

The sensation is the sensation of BEING HERE, PRESENT-ALIVE-AWARE.

A 'Me' does not exist as some other 'thing' living in the body, there is only this body here, 'doing' it's thing.

This body in it's entirety IS THE EXPERIENCE.

Is there a perceiver, or a doer?

There is simply this experience, there isn't anyone or anything behind it, there isn't a background to this, simply This Experience. No actual perceiver or doer in receipt of the experience, part of the experience is this sense of there being a perceiver or doer, experience imbued with a sense of me.

If things are actionable who is taking the actions? What is that?

THE ACTIONS ARE THE BODY....THE BODY IS THAT...THE ACTIONS.


.

Hi Mark, this is a continuation of the reply to your asking about - "Phil was really being himself, he was in his element" what are they describing? does that have a sensation? - that was written yesterday (above ^)

Woke up this morning and spent a few minutes really looking into this feeling of 'me', then all of a sudden it was as if something cleared away or there was some kind of recognition of 'something happy.'

Then there was a memory of being a small child holding mums hand while walking to school, spotted a puddle, walked over to it, stood in it and then started to jump up and down, mum got cross because my shoes and socks were all wet.
Looking up at her face I couldn't work out why she was so angry. From my point of view I was simply having fun being with this little puddle, but it wasn't really like being 'with' the puddle, more like the joy of the experience, that there was this absolute FREEDOM of play/expression - just this little moment as it was.

So, maybe what you have been asking to be looked at is this 'sense' of Freedom.

Some people say "when I look within, at my very core, I AM love" because they find it, feel it and believe it to be who they really are, when you were a child and you heard about this (or some version of this) who were you really?

There is present this 'sense' of Wide Open Freedom. Life Being Present- ing Freely. Whatever consciousness/awareness appears to be present here as Phil is the same concsiousness everywhere (A Single/Whole Experiencing)

What is felt when that sense of me is really looked into is One Whole Presence of Connection (sorry, can't resist to use the word - LOVE)

Total Freedom, including the presence of the belief in a separate 'me', but within that Freedom is the recognition that the 'me' is the appearance of an idea that isn't had by 'anyone', it is simply present as that ( an idea) until it ain't.


After this little experience there was present that same 'happy something' feeling of the child jumping in a puddle- Life Freely Being.

There isn't an actual separate I that can be or do anything but, there IS THIS FREEDOM OF BEING - JOY/LOVE/CONNECTIVITY, wide open - 'within' which there appears to be the expression of the feeling of a 'me.'

There is simply this experience, there isn't anyone or anything behind it, there isn't a background to this, simply This Experience. No actual perceiver or doer in receipt of the experience, part of the experience is this sense of there being a perceiver or doer, experience imbued with a sense of me.

Explore the sense of me.

Cor, that "feels" like one of the Eno/Schmidt Oblique Strategies :)

Ah, I see you have - just reading your second post now - excellent!

There isn't an actual separate I that can be or do anything but, there IS THIS FREEDOM OF BEING - JOY/LOVE/CONNECTIVITY, wide open - 'within' which there appears to be the expression of the feeling of a 'me.'

EXCELLENT :)

AND GUESS WHAT THAT IS :L

HERE COMES THAT TUG AT THE TABLE CLOTH

WOOOOOOOSH!

THEY FOUND SANTA :)

ARE YOU STILL STANDING?

BECAUSE IT ISN'T REAL - IMAGINATION HAS BEEN CREATING THE ILLUSION OF THE EXPRESSION OF A "YOU" FOR DECADES

REALLY CHECK IT AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY SUBSTANCE TO IT, IS THERE AN "I, ME, OR SELF' TO BE FOUND IN THIS PLACE NEO?

THINK ABOUT THE FOLLOWING

THE UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING THAT SOMETHING IS MISSING IS BECAUSE DEEP DOWN THERE IS ALREADY A RECOGNITION THAT THERE REALLY IS NO "I"

IT IS ALREADY KNOWN

FROM WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT BEING A CHILD JUMPING IN A PUDDLE IT SEEMS LIKELY THERE WAS AN ATTACHMENT, AN INAUTHENTIC IDENTIFICATION WITH FREEDOM/JOY AS SELF

AND IN YOUR SEEKING YOU LOOK FOR PEACE, RELAXATION, CONTENTMENT AND JOY HOPES TO VALIDATE SELF

WHEN PEACE, RELAXATION, CONTENTMENT AND JOY ARE NOT AVAILABLE THERE IS A FEELING OF BEING INVALIDATED, AS IF THERE IS NO AUTHENTIC "YOU"

SOMETHING IS PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING IT IS NOT

OKAY?

IF THIS IS WRONG WE NEED TO LOOK AGAIN

SO IMAGINATION IS A VALUABLE TOOL AND ALL THIS IS JUST MISIDENTIFICATION

THOSE STATES CAN NEVER BE FULLY EXPERIENCED OUT HERE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS IDENTIFY THEM AS THE "SELF" SENSE WHENEVER THEY SHOW UP

PUT ANOTHER WAY, THEY ARE NOT AVAILABLE - HENCE THE CONSTANT SEEKING

UNTIL YOU CAN RECOGNISE THIS IS HAPPENING YOU ARE DOOMED TO SEEKING THAT WHICH YOU THINK YOU ALREADY ARE

THIS CAN FALL AWAY NOW AND THIS IS WHAT SOME ADVAITA TEACHERS MEAN BY THE SENSE OF SELF FALLING AWAY

LET GO OF IDENTIFICATION WITH THIS FEELING (AND ANY OTHERS)

IF SOMETHING SHOWS UP AS "I, ME, OR SELF" EXAMINE IT, FIND OUT WHAT IT IS, AFFIRM IT "THIS SENSE OF FREEDOM IS A SENSE OF FREEDOM IT IS NOT WHO I AM"

LET IT FALL AWAY

SEE WHAT ARISES NEXT

BUT IT SEEMS CLEAR WE HAVE THE MAIN CULPRIT

ALL THIS COULD BE LIKE SOMETHING IMAGINING IT WAS YELLOW TRYING TO FIND AND EXPERIENCE YELLOW

IT SEES YELLOW AND SAYS "YES THAT'S ME, WHERE IS YELLOW?"

IN AN EXPERIMENT A SCIENTIST WOULD HAVE A CONTROL

THERE IS PROBABLY ONE FEELING IN EXPERIENCE THAT IS HELD ONTO AS THE CONTROL

LET GO OF THAT CONTROL

WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE "ME" EXPERIENCE IN LIGHT OF THIS CONVERSATION?