Grateful for some help please

[coradad]

Here's what comes to me. Seeing that the "self" was just an idea is still being done from a perspective, a perspective of "no self" because I'm still observing even though it feels like an experience (probably it's both). Who is observing? Why do I need anything to hang a hat on? This is keeping me from direct experience or rather putting a rather tawdry party dress on it. A bit of fear/ apprehension is felt, confusion about "what's the answer to this", what would it feel like to not have anything to hang a hat on, to label? Shouldn't it just be natural to exist in ordinary direct experience? Anyway, will let it stew for awhile as you suggest. I have a pretty full calendar this weekend so don't know how much quality feedback I'll provide but I will check in. Thanks again for your time :)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Coradad,

Here's what comes to me. Seeing that the "self" was just an idea is still being done from a perspective, a perspective of "no self" because I'm still observing even though it feels like an experience (probably it's both). Who is observing? Why do I need anything to hang a hat on? This is keeping me from direct experience or rather putting a rather tawdry party dress on it. A bit of fear/ apprehension is felt, confusion about "what's the answer to this", what would it feel like to not have anything to hang a hat on, to label? Shouldn't it just be natural to exist in ordinary direct experience? Anyway, will let it stew for awhile as you suggest. I have a pretty full calendar this weekend so don't know how much quality feedback I'll provide but I will check in. Thanks again for your time :)

As you're observing, get as strong a sense of self as you can. Really get a grip of your "I". Maybe even sense it within yourself as a shape or sensations.

...and then...

...realise that something is watching the whole deal. Still. Un-changing.

There is something behind the stage that remains still and silent.

Catch up tomorrow.

With best wishes,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Oh, forgot to say, have a great weekend! :)

John

[coradad]

...realise that something is watching the whole deal. Still. Un-changing.

There is something behind the stage that remains still and silent.

OK, feeling a little frustrated here. You asked me to get a strong sense of "I", to feel it in my body. Can't really do this because everytime I remember that "I" is just a fiction, not real so can't get a strong sense of it. Then the statement above implying (or actually stating) that there is something observing. Frustration is felt in the head and the thought "thinking won't get me there" appears.

The metaphor of a fish comes up. A fish is in water always so how can it "know" water, what is it's reference- it's never experienced "no water". Started to write "intuition tells me that I need to pay attention to the body, what feelings occur" and then had the thought I was assigning that idea to intuition, something separate.But is it really separate. Now feeling constriction in the throat area that passes as I notice it.

Back to your statement above: something is watching the whole deal. Still. Un-changing. Watching? Perceiving? Experiencing? Something is a label pointing to what? Awareness? Consciousness? A mouse in the corner?

[coradad]

And...you have a great weekend too. I'm playing in a two day golf tournament for our club championship. I'm not that good but still it's fun, love golf. Talk about something that "just happens", that's the only way I can understand what goes on when I get out there :)

Again, thank you for your time.

[coradad]

I just had a clue. I was trying to fall back asleep and told myself to just let my subconscious figure things out. As I was drifting back into sleep I had the thought "it's time to get up and warm the sunshine". What this means to me is that sunshine has no warmth unless I feel it, unless something experiences it. Obviously there is no separation, it takes sun shining, object being shone on, and perception for this to occur.

Now the thought "who or what notices this" comes up. The sun doesn't know it's warming things. Or does it? How could I know, how could anyone know. This body feels warmth (or the label warmth) and the mind says "I feel warmth" but warmth is just felt. Maybe nothing notices warmth, it's just a phenomena. Maybe that's as far as it goes and we're putting meaning where there is none, just like there's no self, there's no thing. There's just this, there's nothing to look for. There's only phenomena experiencing phenomena. Hmmm...

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Coradad,

Ok, let's pull this back together to one thread:

...realise that something is watching the whole deal. Still. Un-changing.

There is something behind the stage that remains still and silent.

OK, feeling a little frustrated here. You asked me to get a strong sense of "I", to feel it in my body. Can't really do this because everytime I remember that "I" is just a fiction, not real so can't get a strong sense of it. Then the statement above implying (or actually stating) that there is something observing. Frustration is felt in the head and the thought "thinking won't get me there" appears.

Sometimes, it's useful to hear that something is behind the scenes. A next step, if you like. After all, it can seem like something is always aware. As good at observing as we try to be, there's always an awareness of that too. There is no something - just life as awareness and intelligence. These are just words though.

The metaphor of a fish comes up. A fish is in water always so how can it "know" water, what is it's reference- it's never experienced "no water". Started to write "intuition tells me that I need to pay attention to the body, what feelings occur" and then had the thought I was assigning that idea to intuition, something separate.But is it really separate. Now feeling constriction in the throat area that passes as I notice it.

Yes, we start to go in circles with our thinking, until we look and see - what is thinking made up of and the lack of a thinker - so just thoughts, one after another.

Back to your statement above: something is watching the whole deal. Still. Un-changing. Watching? Perceiving? Experiencing? Something is a label pointing to what? Awareness? Consciousness? A mouse in the corner?

It can seem like the ultimate witness - silent, still, watching - but "witness" is just a word. There is nothing, as you say, to hang your hat on. :)

I just had a clue. I was trying to fall back asleep and told myself to just let my subconscious figure things out. As I was drifting back into sleep I had the thought "it's time to get up and warm the sunshine". What this means to me is that sunshine has no warmth unless I feel it, unless something experiences it. Obviously there is no separation, it takes sun shining, object being shone on, and perception for this to occur.

Now the thought "who or what notices this" comes up. The sun doesn't know it's warming things. Or does it? How could I know, how could anyone know. This body feels warmth (or the label warmth) and the mind says "I feel warmth" but warmth is just felt. Maybe nothing notices warmth, it's just a phenomena. Maybe that's as far as it goes and we're putting meaning where there is none, just like there's no self, there's no thing. There's just this, there's nothing to look for. There's only phenomena experiencing phenomena. Hmmm...

1. There is the direct experience of life.
2. Then the labelling of that direct experience.
3. And all the while, the presumption of a labeller.

Yes, life experiencing life. Life is brim full of intelligence and awareness - it can discern very nicely, thank you very much.

Take a thought like, "The sun doesn't know it's warming things." Notice where the thought started and ended. As you read this, whatever thoughts come up:

1. Notice that each thought has a start (where it pops up), an end (where it goes) and then space, or another thought. Just notice thoughts coming up, having a duration, then ending.
- Do this for a couple of minutes till you see the thoughts pop up and end, pop up and end. Very important that you see this.

2. Then, see the idea of "a thinker thinking" as another thought.

3. Then, see the idea of "no thinker" as another thought.

What's happening here? Thoughts with no thinker? Yet a thought can't think - can it?

So, what's left?

Hope the golf went well! I once reached the dizzy heights of 16 handicap. :D

Best wishes,
John

[coradad]

The response I had to your previous post was the idea that the awareness I perceive is no different than any other awareness. Everything seems to have awareness of some sort.Thoughts seem to be a reactive phenomena to stimulation, they just occur like blinking.

Off to golf..

[s-p-a-c-e]

Coradad,

The response I had to your previous post was the idea that the awareness I perceive is no different than any other awareness. Everything seems to have awareness of some sort.Thoughts seem to be a reactive phenomena to stimulation, they just occur like blinking.

Off to golf..

Blinking is a very good analogy - on automatic.

Can you find anything at all that isn't on automatic - including the golf swing.

Best,
John

[coradad]

Not really, it seems like a never-ending loop. Stimulus, reaction, thought over and over again until we die.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Coradad,

Not really, it seems like a never-ending loop. Stimulus, reaction, thought over and over again until we die.

Cool. What about walking? Take a walk. Look intensely at each moment. Is there any doer doing the walking?

What is the experience of walking? Who is walking? Are you being walked by life?

Best,
John

[coradad]

The sense is now of walking happening. There is a choice made between different option thoughts of: go for a walk, take a nap but whatever choice is made then that choice is experienced however it manifests.There seems to be choice, choosing happens based on preference, past memories and probabilities I suppose.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Coradad,

The sense is now of walking happening. There is a choice made between different option thoughts of: go for a walk, take a nap but whatever choice is made then that choice is experienced however it manifests.There seems to be choice, choosing happens based on preference, past memories and probabilities I suppose.

Yes, there seems to be choice. It's mysterious.

Let's just focus now on walking.

Walk for awhile and look for the doer. Notice what you notice.

Then, take off the label of "walking".

Notice what it's like to walk without the label "walking".

This is a space of not-knowing. Explore it gently, carefully.

Best,
John

[coradad]

OK, explore it carefully. Do you mean to just focus on what is happening? Such as noticing the feel of the pressure on the bottom of the feet, feel the muscles balancing the body on the ankles, feel the motion of movement through air, feel the joints moving?

If I do this there is just paying attention, there is no doer or labelling.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Coradad,

OK, explore it carefully. Do you mean to just focus on what is happening? Such as noticing the feel of the pressure on the bottom of the feet, feel the muscles balancing the body on the ankles, feel the motion of movement through air, feel the joints moving?

If I do this there is just paying attention, there is no doer or labelling.

Good - we're moving along nicely.

Take your time and check this out.

1. What's the experience from the inside when looking out at the world? Is there any thing left to look out?

2. If there is, what is the sensation of it? If there isn't, describe the feelings as you move through the world? What's the experience of what's around you? Where do you end? What fills you?

3. Is a cup still a cup? Who's cup is it?

4. What's different now there's no doer, no "Coradad"?

Please write as much detail as comes up about the experiences with these four questions.

There are no right or wrong answers - just the direct experience.

With my kind thanks,
John