The Gate

hi Cam

More like...What it feels like not to have a "YOU"!!... How about assuming there's no you AT ALL to refer to... What would that feel like??

I did this in the middle of working, acting as if there is no me, and it was lighter, cruisey..kind of automatic. But i m unsure it was just a mind game or I actually got what you are pointing to. Anyway it was only while there was 'an effort to let go'.
It does appear truer and truer as i keep thinking about there being no one controlling, however still unsure if this thinking is actually 'taking a look' in the sense you mean it. but somehow this is only as far as I could go.

Cam, could you please also elaborate on

follow the feeling back, and see what's there behind the thought

what i tend to see is that thoughts arise by themselves but clueless on how to see 'whts there behind the thoughts'
my apologies for being so 'slow', and thank you for your persistence!
Regards
Arora
p.s. no, it doesnt matter whether Arora goes about his or her routine, i sort of imagined Arora as opposite gender after you said that and it felt the same...same neurosis, same drama, different character

Hello! Hello!

I did this in the middle of working, acting as if there is no me, and it was lighter, cruisey..kind of automatic. But i m unsure it was just a mind game or I actually got what you are pointing to. Anyway it was only while there was 'an effort to let go'.

Bamm!! You absolutely Nailed it!!!
Just let go!....It's just life!......No Liver required ;^) Felt really good Huh?
See that's the thing, we get so caught up in our heads, that life passes on by... While we sit and suffer in the prison of our own minds!!!

It does appear truer and truer as i keep thinking about there being no one controlling, however still unsure if this thinking is actually 'taking a look' in the sense you mean it.

You did beautifully! I'm so glad you saw this!!......Pretty cool Huh?
Think of the mind as a tool "strictly" for reference...You pick and choose what knowledge and thoughts you want and put them back on the "proverbial self" until they're needed again...The Rest is just life! There's really no need to take all these thoughts in your head personally anymore!! :^)
"You" Are literally the imagination of yourself!!

what i tend to see is that thoughts arise by themselves but clueless on how to see 'whts there behind the thoughts'
my apologies for being so 'slow', and thank you for your persistence!

You're doing just fine! :^)
So Are you saying they come from nowhere, and disappear from where they came??

p.s. no, it doesnt matter whether Arora goes about his or her routine, i sort of imagined Arora as opposite gender after you said that and it felt the same...same neurosis, same drama, different character

It's all labels...As soon as you're born they call you a boy or girl, then slap another label on you "your name" and so on and so on throughout your life...<------"YOU" ARE NONE OF THESE... Never have and NEVER WILL BE!!

So Outside of a thought, Belief, or memory where or what is "Arora"??<---Insert label here ;^)

Hi Cam

Think of the mind as a tool "strictly" for reference...You pick and choose what knowledge and thoughts you want and put them back on the "proverbial self" until they're needed again...The Rest is just life!

I have 2 questions re above:
1. 'you pick and choose'- wouldn't it be another thought that would pick and choose, if there is no doer?

2. Ignoring the first one, when I want to choose, I find this whole making a choice stuff very hard generally - there seems to be 2 (or more) thoughts of equal intensity so it seems difficult to find a truer one to use/believe/act upon. Do you have any comments, Cam?

I do seem to be able to remind myself frequently during the day that there is no self/doer and it seems to be lighter and automatic for a bit (seconds-minutes) however, it doesnt feel intense enough or lasting enough to surprise me...

sorry if it sounded like a whingeing session, but this is what seems to be coming up :)

Kind regards
Arora

Hello...

I have 2 questions re above:
1. 'you pick and choose'- wouldn't it be another thought that would pick and choose, if there is no doer?

2. Ignoring the first one, when I want to choose, I find this whole making a choice stuff very hard generally - there seems to be 2 (or more) thoughts of equal intensity so it seems difficult to find a truer one to use/believe/act upon. Do you have any comments, Cam?

Re: #1 Sure! if the connection is "broken"... The illusion isn't destroyed just seen for what it "IS"...Thought's just come and go, there's nothing behind them no thinker... just thought!....Is this true? Try it!!

Re: #2 One word....Inquiry. " Is this true in real life??"...Challenge everything!!!
Keep it Real...If it exists in reality, It's what "IS"...Not what it should be, in your head.
Stick with what you feel is REAL in your head...Go with the gut feelings, intuition can also help be your guide.

I do seem to be able to remind myself frequently during the day that there is no self/doer and it seems to be lighter and automatic for a bit (seconds-minutes) however, it doesnt feel intense enough or lasting enough to surprise me.

The mind is seductive and will suck you back in, if you let it...It's fine when your using your imagination for creativity...If your mind is in the past or future, it's either recall or imagination none of this serves you better than the present...

Hi Cam
I had a bit of upset in the life situation and tried to use opportunity to 'work'..again felt clearly the physical sensation and accompanying thought...however i still hit a wall trying to find what s behind the thought.

Thoughts appear by themselves, although in response to a situation, that I can see when I pay attention. So to me attention seems to have importance- when I can pay attention, I can see thoughts just appeared were not my production, but when I dont pay attention, I just seem to be lost or one with thoughts.

Regards
Arora

Good Morning!

I had a bit of upset in the life situation and tried to use opportunity to 'work'..again felt clearly the physical sensation and accompanying thought...however i still hit a wall trying to find what s behind the thought.

Strange as it may sound, this is Good!!.. Next time you get that sensation, "mentally" pull away a bit and let your curiosity take over...Once you get this in real time, and "see what's there"...(Well with me it seems so silly I'll shake my head and chuckle :^) You'll understand...

Thoughts appear by themselves, although in response to a situation, that I can see when I pay attention. So to me attention seems to have importance- when I can pay attention,

Again very Good!...They're pulses of energy emerging from nowhere, and they need your attention and energy to survive...
So here's a another question...Is it possible to think more than one thought at the same time?

I can see thoughts just appeared were not my production, but when I dont pay attention, I just seem to be lost or one with thoughts.

Yup! It's easy To get drawn back into the mind...The seduction of the mind isn't exactly wrong, as far as imagination, and creativity are concerned. It's when you are trying to force fantasy into "What Is" is where you'll find conflict...

Hi Cam
I have been trying whenever I get a chance to 'work' but no progress so far with either of your suggestions- 'Seeing what is behind the thoughts' & 'if it is possible to think more than one thought at a time'
Tried to look especially at this more than one thought situation..sounded easier..but I dont know if I am too close to thoughts or if it is the pace of thoughts that is not allowing me to reach a conclusion. It is probably more like one thought at a time, just quickly paced enough for mind/me not to catch the distinction between them in real time.
Another experience is that if I pay close attention to either of 2 conundrums, thoughts almost stop and there is nothing to be found, until the attention is lost and mind loses itself in running thoughts again.
I can also realise me/mind trying to latch on to comforting thoughts when they appear or What gets confusing is something inside trying to even generate comforting thoughts.
All bit muddled at the moment, Cam
Regards
Arora

Hello, Arora..
Glad to see you on Facebook! :^)

Tried to look especially at this more than one thought situation..sounded easier..but I dont know if I am too close to thoughts or if it is the pace of thoughts that is not allowing me to reach a conclusion. It is probably more like one thought at a time,

Alright! now remember when I said there's No thinker...Just Thought?

Another experience is that if I pay close attention to either of 2 conundrums, thoughts almost stop and there is nothing to be found, until the attention is lost and mind loses itself in running thoughts again.

let's look at this...

thoughts almost stop and there is nothing to be found, until the attention is lost and mind loses itself in running thoughts again.

AGAIN! Right HERE! No thinker, just thought....

WHERE IS THE " I "??

Hi Cam
Glad to find you on facebook as well.

Cam, there has been more of understanding as i keep thinking / investigating about it, that I cant find 'I' but it still doesnt hit hard..
Sorry to keep repeating the same thing but it'd dishonest to just accept it when it is not my constant/spontaneous experience, so I keep drumming the same beat over and over again.
Regards
Arora

Hello Arora..

Cam, there has been more of understanding as i keep thinking / investigating about it, that I cant find 'I' but it still doesnt hit hard..

I wouldn't look at it as much as "hitting you hard" as much as, "breaking this connection" and a feeling of mental release, from feeding time and energy into the "Delusion of a Self".
Curiosity and desire, are the most potent tools for inquiry...If someone irritates you, or flat out pisses you off...What's behind this emotion??... Think about it...You can try and recall the last episode you remember and look... Or what works best is pausing when it happens, and catch "The Self" in the act, in real time. By taking a mental "Step Back" and looking at what's in the background that's causing this physical tension. Once you see the truth, the tension falls away, leaving clarity and relief...Hell don't take my word on it, try it! ;^)

so I keep drumming the same beat over and over again.

It's okay, keep looking!...What's in control of these "particular" thoughts??
You get, that nothing is creating these thoughts, just now you need to "catch them in the act", it's sort of a cat and mouse game now. Because intellectually, you understand. "The self" knows you're looking, so now it'll start popping up when you're not...Try keeping this in the forefront of your mind, in that when you get a "feeling" in real time you can be quick to react and look.
This may sound stupid but think of this like "whack a mole" that arcade game...When you look it disappears, but try not to get to caught up in the moment, when these thought's come up be quick and catch them in the act and LOOK...All you need is one honest look to prove to in your mind that ALL of this in your head is an Illusion.
Then you will find peace...

Hi Cam
I am back :)
So, i find it easier to be on automatic, no one doing it mode when its a difficult situation (had a few those lately) and can see mind racing and doing its job, on its own. However there seems to be voluntary thoughts that i seem to be able to superimpose..like 'look who is there whos stressed' or 'there is no one doing it' Are these just thoughts as well? like other thoughts that are racing...why is this sense of volition though behind this voice that i can seem to force?

Another little experience was at night lying in bed, kept going at it...trying to see who s behind the thoughts and suddenly felt the body filled with something like tingling sensation and acute awareness of body.
A personal question for you as well Cam, did you see this through similar inquiry or spontaneously or another method? just curious
Regards friend
Arora

Another quick question- browsing through the forum, I noted another guide had their condition as 'to stop any other seeking activity like reading, viewing, meditating etc'
Although i am not an arduous seeker, but i enjoy listening to youtube stuff, and a bit of reading nondual teachers almost on everyday basis. Did you have any comments/recommendations regarding this?
Thanks

To add to last reply, the reading & listening on the topic, to me, seem to complement the work e.g tony parsons', sailor bob adamson's stuff

Hello, Arora...

i find it easier to be on automatic, no one doing it mode when its a difficult situation (had a few those lately) and can see mind racing and doing its job, on its own.

When life is flowing and busy, this works fine... But when the mind starts wandering or spinning stories you'll get drawn back in eventually...Seeing the illusion and recognizing there's nothing behind all these thoughts (without a doubt) will set you free. It's all in your head. If it's not REAL dump it! No matter how true it may seem, shed the light of truth and reality on it. If it's not solid and outside your head, you can't trust it.

However there seems to be voluntary thoughts that i seem to be able to superimpose..like 'look who is there whos stressed' or 'there is no one doing it' Are these just thoughts as well?

Sure these questions are fine, remember though that there is no separate entity inside your head taking responsibility as a self. and replace "who" with "what" because "who" imposes a separate self. You don't want to add any more confusion to the mix.

.why is this sense of volition though behind this voice that i can seem to force?

This thought pattern has been spinning since you were a child. It needs your attention and energy to stay alive or it no longer has power within the mind. Once the illusion is seen for what it is, it cannot be unseen. (Game Over.)
Remember the old saying seeing is believing? Same go's here.

Another little experience was at night lying in bed, kept going at it...trying to see who s behind the thoughts and suddenly felt the body filled with something like tingling sensation and acute awareness of body.
A personal question for you as well Cam, did you see this through similar inquiry or spontaneously or another method?

Remember there's nothing there? As challenge the thoughts as they come, the more intense or predominant the better...These are the one's that feed on your mental energy, they'll keep spinning and changing till you give in. Again "what's" there?...If you had your eye's closed while in bed your senses may have been heightened from the lack of sight at the moment, yet then again you may have been more in touch with your true essence within. We as guides are at odds regarding what to call this, it go's by many labels...I prefer to call 'it' pure, formless, energy. What else brings life?

I noted another guide had their condition as 'to stop any other seeking activity like reading, viewing, meditating etc'
Although i am not an arduous seeker, but i enjoy listening to youtube stuff, and a bit of reading nondual teachers almost on everyday basis. Did you have any comments/recommendations regarding this?

I said at the beginning of our conversation, basically the same thing. Until we are finished I prefer NOT to add any other distractions to the mix. You can revisit any of these you like once you're done.

What you need to do is look at real life instead. Drop all your beliefs and start from the ground up. Then look at what is real instead of trying to imagine some magical conceptualization of nothing and that would be a start. We are not asking you to drop a belief that you are believing. We are asking you to suspend them and build a picture of reality from the ground up that is based on direct experience.

So outside of thought is there a you?

Hi Cam

thank you so much for being with me.
I sat down thinking about what you said in your last post, then thought occurred for me to scan my environment and body and see what is 'real'. As i started doing that, next thing that occurred was that 'wait a minute, i didnt decide to do that..where did it come from.. and i saw that it came from nowhere! 'i' sat there for a little while just enjoying this...thoughts coming and going..automatic! I dont know whether I'd continue to see this but right now there is thoughts, there is indecision on what to write, whether it is being written and conveyed properly...there is thoughts whether i should use 'i' in writing or not..but there is not much stress to whatever happens.
i intend to report again whether this continues or i get sucked back again,
till then,
kind regards
Arora