hi I'm Douglas and I'm seeking a guide to help me out

[jimw]

Hi Douglas,

Yes I'm nothing and I'm afraid.
I want to have control on that no self that's where the fear is

Just had an insight nothing trying to control nothing:))
Funny when I look at fear I find nothing
How can nothing be afraid of nothing

OK, fear is fine. No problem. We will work with fear for a little while.

Fear does arise during this process. DO NOT FIGHT IT. This is futile. Instead, we will work with it.

This is what I want you to do. For each of these questions provide an answer. A gut reaction - no prolonged thinking about the answers. However - also try to write out as clearly as possible what arises for each question. The clearer this is for the guide, the more effective this process is.

1. How does fear arise ?
2. What is fear ? Just a sense of fear, or worry about specific things?
2. What is the fear there for ?
3. What is behind the fear ?

[doug1976]

I guess what's happening is there is that nothing and there's a me desperately trying to get it , capture it , claim it
I know there is nothing to grab onto how frustrating!

[doug1976]

1. How does fear arise ?
2. What is fear ? Just a sense of fear, or worry about specific things?
2. What is the fear there for ?
3. What is behind the fear ?

Fear arises from feeling of loneliness

Fear is a protection from being totally engulfed,
totally ceasing to exist.

A surge of power held back like a kink in a fire hose at full pressure.

So it's like that for me a surge of power / fear / emptiness in that order.
All at once happening at the same time .
I can't separate any of it , it's all there.

[jimw]

Fear arises from feeling of loneliness.

OK - feeling lonely can trigger fear. The mechanism for this, is that the mind generates a thought of feeling lonely, and it labels that as belonging to Douglas. If Douglas (the little one sat in your head) doesn't label this, then there is the perception of some sort of sensation in the body.

It's a bit like if you mistake a rope for a snake, the rope is still a rope in reality, and the fear is a bodily reaction to a wrong perception. When the rope is seen as a rope, the fear is gone, together with the illusion of the snake. There is only a change in perception when you really see that the “I” is an illusion.

A surge of power held back like a kink in a fire hose at full pressure.
So it's like that for me a surge of power / fear / emptiness in that order.
All at once happening at the same time .
I can't separate any of it , it's all there.

OK Douglas it's all there. That's fine. Let is be there for now.

Look directly at the fear, what might be causing it. Is it any of these ?
1. “If there is no self, I will disappear?”
2. “Without a self, I will cease to exist?”
3. “Without a self, nothing will get done.”

If the answer is yes to any of the above ? Is it true ?

[doug1976]

I will be destroyed by it.
I won't have anything to protect myself with or against
I ll be helpless
Empty
Absent
Stuck inside

As I'm scanning for feelings sensation
I'm noticing the absurdity of it all
How can all that happen if there's no self.

[doug1976]

I forgot to say it's not true.

[jimw]

What is not true Doug ? Do you mean that all of the fear is based on a thought, a concept or imagination ?

Is it true that once you see the illusion of a separate self, as in a sense of 'me' or 'I' you will disappear ? Have all those that have seen disappeared ?

Is it true that you will be helpless ? Do you think that all of your conditioning and physical reflexes will disappear, once you have seen that something imaginary is not there? How does that work ? If you no longer believe in something imaginary, how does that change what is ?

[doug1976]

The fear of not existing , being helpless feels real but when I check it's not true ,
The body mind will carry on as usual regardless weather I see myself as self only or weather I see thru the illusion and see me as no me.
I guess I'm looking for a sign , or a special experience so that I can do that.
The truth is I'm never there just a bunch of automatic reflexes manifesting from that.

Yes there's still a fear of totally disappearing
Now as I'm writing I'm asking what is the " me or I"
that is afraid of disappearing ?
I get there's something much bigger "that no one"
I know that "no one or nothing " is not opposite to everything or something.
Doug

[jimw]

The body mind will carry on as usual regardless weather I see myself as self only or weather I see thru the illusion and see me as no me.
I guess I'm looking for a sign , or a special experience so that I can do that.

Yes there's still a fear of totally disappearing
Now as I'm writing I'm asking what is the " me or I"
that is afraid of disappearing ?
I get there's something much bigger "that no one"
I know that "no one or nothing " is not opposite to everything or something.

Hi Douglas.

I understand where you are coming from. This process can generate fear, even when you can rationalize what might be causing it.

The thing to hold in mind is that fear is a protection mechanism. It is there to protect you from danger to keep the body alive- there is nothing wrong with it, it has helped keep you safe. However, fear can often arise in response to thoughts that do not have much basis in reality. Often we fear the unknown, we think about what might happen, what could happen, and we don't look at what is going on right now. The fear that is arising now is your mind trying to protect you from something that it sees as a threat as you start to question what you always assumed was real. In reality, there is ONLY reality, here and now, and now - and now. By seeing that self is an illusion means that nothing is lost - there is no need to fear any loss, because there is nothing there to lose, there never was.

Here is something I want you to try:

1. Let the fear be. Hold it in your awareness, don't push it away, do not be afraid of the feelings it brings. It is not your enemy.
2. Look at the fear, where is it being felt, see what feelings are arising and from where, notice the sensations, the energy behind them, see what they really are.
3. Ask the fear "what are you protecting me from?" write out what first comes into your head.

Let me know how you get on. You can do this Douglas !

[doug1976]

1. Let the fear be. Hold it in your awareness, don't push it away, do not be afraid of the feelings it brings. It is not your enemy.
2. Look at the fear, where is it being felt, see what feelings are arising and from where, notice the sensations, the energy behind them, see what they really are.
3. Ask the fear "what are you protecting me from?" write out what first comes into your head.

When I think of fear the first thing that comes to my mind is pain and from that how to numb the pain , disappear away from it or totally vanish so that I don't have to feel any of it.
The truth is I don't get to fully feel fear but I do feel how it is to be invisible
Vanishing disappearing.
And from that experience when I vanish I feel nothing no one weight less absent
There isn't a self carefree
Treading lightly undetected,
Perfectly still
The funny thing is I'm quite happy to be all that
It keeps me safe it gives me power
I couldn't give it up it's too huge to give up.

[jimw]

The truth is I don't get to fully feel fear but I do feel how it is to be invisible
Vanishing disappearing.
And from that experience when I vanish I feel nothing no one weight less absent
There isn't a self carefree
Treading lightly undetected,
Perfectly still
The funny thing is I'm quite happy to be all that
It keeps me safe it gives me power
I couldn't give it up it's too huge to give up.

Hi Douglas - I'm not sure that I get what you are saying. If we are going to make any progress you need to be very clear in your answers by responding precisely to each question. This is not a place for abstract thoughts or zen poetry.

Answer these for me please.

1. What is vanishing ? If you are referring to self, then that's like saying the Bogey Man has vanished. Nonsense. There is no Bogey Man, never was, never will be. You cannot replace 'self' - a label - with 'no self' - another label.
2. What are you happy being ? Identifying with an imaginary friend ? Or pretending to give up an imaginary friend ?
3. If you give up self, what remains ?

[doug1976]

1. What is vanishing ? If you are referring to self, then that's like saying the Bogey Man has vanished. Nonsense. There is no Bogey Man, never was, never will be. You cannot replace 'self' - a label - with 'no self' - another label.
2. What are you happy being ? Identifying with an imaginary friend ? Or pretending to give up an imaginary friend ?
3. If you give up self, what remains?

1.
Thank you for helping me clarify,
I feel vanished , invisible, disappeared and in that I get a sense of safety from danger real or imagined triggered
It makes me feel that I haven't got a self because I feel nothing .
I suspect that's what fear does inside of me.
2.
That feeling of no self feels real and comfortable
so in that sense it's like hanging with a true friend , imaginary quite possibly but feels pretty real to
me (the feelings of not being there)
That sense brings me solace and an oasis from some of the sharp corners of life.
3.contemplating giving up self brings up a lot of fear because then I might have no where to hide I ll have no refuge and I might be exposed to everything.
I'll be unprotected .

[jimw]

Hi Douglas this is much clearer - thanks for the clarifications.

Lets deal with these one at a time.

I feel vanished , invisible, disappeared and in that I get a sense of safety from danger real or imagined triggered
It makes me feel that I haven't got a self because I feel nothing .

Imagining there is no 'you' could give you a sense of safety, I understand that. It is true, there is no separate self. There really is not, and I can assure you that there really is nothing to fear in the here and now. Fear can occur as you start to believe in thoughts about what could happen. All that happens after seeing no self, is a sense of relief. Life continues afterwards, nothing is missing.

That feeling of no self feels real and comfortable
so in that sense it's like hanging with a true friend , imaginary quite possibly but feels pretty real to
me (the feelings of not being there)
That sense brings me solace and an oasis from some of the sharp corners of life.

OK I can appreciate that too, and once the illusion is seen through, life can become more simple in many ways, more peaceful. However, this is not necessarily the case, the body can still suffer, negativity can still arise. However, it no longer identified with as strongly.

contemplating giving up self brings up a lot of fear because then I might have no where to hide I ll have no refuge and I might be exposed to everything.
I'll be unprotected

I know understand why you have fear. It is OK to feel like this at this stage, it really is. All I can is tell you is that all will be OK.

After going through the gate you will still function. You will still have defense mechanisms. The body will still have reflexes, thoughts will still arise, you will still make judgments/decisions. You will NOT be 'unprotected'. In fact, the reverse is true, seeing through the illusion lets you see reality more clearly for, and thoughts that bring negativity / anxiety / fear will be seen for what they are, and many of them (most?) will be illusions as they evolve around identification with the 'story' of Douglas.

Could it be the case that a lot of the fear you are experiencing evolves around an 'idea', an imagining of what awakening or liberation actually is ?

[doug1976]

Absolutely yeah ,
I'm not even sure what liberation is ,
I thought it was peace, then I thought it was raw aliveness and
Now I've got no idea.

[jimw]

Absolutely yeah ,
I'm not even sure what liberation is ,
I thought it was peace, then I thought it was raw aliveness and
Now I've got no idea.

Good - no idea is better - much, much better! It takes you out of thinking and gives you more room for LOOKING - which is what this is all about. Looking at the here and now.

Imagining future events and what might happen is perfectly natural - everyone does it.

Fear often comes from imagination - worrying about what could, or might, happen. But this is not real. It really isn't. The future does not exist outside of an idea, a concept - it is not reality. The future is not about what is right now, which is just life happening.

Bear in mind that fear= thought + sensations. The thoughts of future events, are not the actual event. Thinking (conceptualising) about 'me' or 'I' and what ' might happen (more thoughts) to 'me' (another label) triggers the sensations associated with - knotted stomach / tight chest - whatever.

Does that make sense ?