Why do I feel I exist when I know that I don't?

[Dave]

Odemira,

Let's try an experiment with direct experience: Put your hand into a bowl of cold water for 10 seconds, and observe the experience, step by step. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? What do you think? Write it down in detail, step by step. Ok?

Think "I hate these exercises, but I HAVE to get out of this life WHATEVER IT TAKES!!"
Put hand in water.
Hear water lapping - think "water lapping"
Feel coolness - think "cold"
Think - "I hate these games, I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for."
Think "what AM I looking for, what's the right "answer" am I doing this right?"
See air bubbles stuck to skin, then slowly rise to the surface - think "air bubbles sticking to hands and then rising to surface."
Think "I need to do this again and see if I can come up with something else/better/more" "how can this be helping? It's too complicated, I know it's simpler than all this =\"

Put laptop down and put hand in water again.

Think "cold bubbles blah blah blah" "but wait.....I'm labeling this stuff before I've even felt or experienced it, umm, I mean I was labeling it AS I put my hand in the water, I wasn't even experiencing it as it was, rather I was experiencing the thought of it...how perplexing!!"
"UGGHH!!!!! how frustrating is this, how out of control AM I? This is nuts!!! :( I hate this shit! I can't be ruled like this anymore, I hate it :'(........................."

"I guess I'll put my hand in the water again and see what else comes up" "This time NO labeling" "Wait NOT LABELING isn't the exercise, I'm supposed to just see what happens right? but I can't just see what happens, cuz I'm aware of what I'm supposed to do, so I'm going to 'create' a result."......."CRAP!! I'm so confused right now!"
"Coffee.....yea I'm avoiding the task, but coffee does sound good right now"............"no, I'll just do the hand thing again"........

Reading back through post......."Oh! I managed to distract myself"

Put laptop down and put hand in water.

Feel cold - label "cold"
Think "oh! I'm supposed to keep my hand there for 10 seconds"
See skin mottling - label "skin mottling"
Think "Hmmm I'm experiencing and then comes the label."

"Ok coffee time"......

[odemira]

Hi Dave

Well done for repeating the experiment despite your frustration :) And well done for the direct experiencing that you did, which you did exactly right. I know it seems complicated to you, and probably quite alien to what you've experienced in your years of searching - but it really does lead people to see through the illusion of the self.

Let's look at what happened:

"Put hand in water.
Hear water lapping - think "water lapping"
Feel coolness - think "cold"
Think - "I hate these games, I never know what I'm supposed to be looking for."
Think "what AM I looking for, what's the right "answer" am I doing this right?"
See air bubbles stuck to skin, then slowly rise to the surface - think "air bubbles sticking to hands and then rising to surface."
Think "I need to do this again and see if I can come up with something else/better/more" "how can this be helping? It's too complicated, I know it's simpler than all this =\"

I've underlined the sensory perceptions (hear, feel, see) - do you notice that each one of these was automatically followed by a thought labelling the perception? There was a sound heard, and the thought arose 'water lapping', yes?
And then from that other thoughts automatically arose - comments, judgments, questions etc - all just thoughts.

The mind is designed to work out what objects are and to give them a label, a name. It's just a labelling machine, designed to protect the body. Handy in the caveman days to identify predators.

I'm experiencing and then comes the label."

Well, there is the experience, and then comes the label - and that's where you get created, Dave, as one of the labels. But can the 'I' that experiences actually be located other than as a label?

Can you notice that this process of sensory perception (experience) > thought (label) > thought > thought etc etc is all that is ever going on in a continual process? Notice over and over how the 'I' is only a label that the mind gives. Don't try and stop it happening, just notice that this IS what is happening. Once you can see this, we'll move to the next bit of deconstructing the belief in 'Dave'.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Odemira,

I've underlined the sensory perceptions (hear, feel, see) - do you notice that each one of these was automatically followed by a thought labelling the perception? There was a sound heard, and the thought arose 'water lapping', yes?

Yes, I see that. :)

Well, there is the experience, and then comes the label - and that's where you get created, Dave, as one of the labels. But can the 'I' that experiences actually be located other than as a label?

No, not in anything "I do", no I, me, self, consciousness, awareness, Nothing! There's only typing happening, there's no "me" typing, there's just what is, not even experiencing happens, there's just the experience, nothing more. Everything else is as you said, just mind stuff, make believe. When that is apparent, everything is fine :)

The I only seems to exist because thought is believed, this is compounded because I've noticed a sensation in my chest (a slight muscular contraction I think) when the "I" thought arises, and that seems to give the thought more solidity, or reality. But both the thought and the sensation are just experiences happening.

There is no "me", when I say the word it just flies off into space as it has nothing to stick to, when the thought "me" coupled with the bodily sensation are believed, then the word has meaning and a place to stick and appear real.....what a game!!.

Can you notice that this process of sensory perception (experience) > thought (label) > thought > thought etc etc is all that is ever going on in a continual process?

At the moment this seems so obvious, then attention becomes embroiled in the story line and the "I" seems to be born again.

Notice over and over how the 'I' is only a label that the mind gives. Don't try and stop it happening, just notice that this IS what is happening. Once you can see this, we'll move to the next bit of deconstructing the belief in 'Dave'.

Yes, this is the key, to catch the "I" as or before it's born. BUT I've been practicing being me for 48 years, quite the meditation! This may be a bumpy ride!

Thanks for your patience Odemira, I really feel like we're making progress albeit a bit of a roller coaster.

Dave :)

[Dave]

Odemira,

A quick addition to yesterdays post.

This morning as I brushed my teeth I had a very strong sense of being me, and the mental acrobatics couldn't shake it. But as I made coffee, it suddenly dawned on me that even though the sense of being me was strong, that sense was just a thought that I no longer needed to believe, it's not true after all. Upon that thought everything opened up again. I'm not saying for a moment that I "get it yet" (maybe because there is no me to "get" anything ;) ) but it really is beginning to dawn on me that it's REALLY all in my head, that "me" REALLY is JUST a thought.

As I sat with my coffee I looked inside for this "me" that was drinking coffee, and for the first time ever I saw the thought "me", though I say for the first time ever, that isn't true, I've seen him before many times, in fact he's always been there, but today I saw him for what he really is....just a thought! Haha!! A thought that seems to have solidity, not changing, though I can't properly describe it, it's behind my eyes, a fiction that couples itself with a subtle contraction in my chest, and parades as something that it isn't - how could that be there and not be seen?!! - Haha!

Now a fear is arising, I'm wanting to think that I'm making progress, but how could that be? I'm not worthy am I? Shouldn't I have to plug away at this for all eternity while I watch everyone else "get it" I'm also afraid of backsliding. But wait! How can "I" be "not worthy" haha! a joke! there is no "I", that's just athought! Not "MY" thought, just a thought floating around belonging to no one......and there it is, gone :)

Thanks Odemira <3

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave

even though the sense of being me was strong, that sense was just a thought that I no longer needed to believe, it's not true after all. Upon that thought everything opened up again. I'm not saying for a moment that I "get it yet" (maybe because there is no me to "get" anything ;) ) but it really is beginning to dawn on me that it's REALLY all in my head, that "me" REALLY is JUST a thought.

Great! let's say this again: Like believing in Santa Claus - once you knew he wasn't real, the belief falls away, even though you may carry on playing the 'Santa's coming' game. So thoughts starting with 'I' still come up, out of habit, but each time you look for the 'I', you find it's only a thought.

Now a fear is arising, I'm wanting to think that I'm making progress, but how could that be? I'm not worthy am I? Shouldn't I have to plug away at this for all eternity while I watch everyone else "get it" I'm also afraid of backsliding. But wait! How can "I" be "not worthy" haha! a joke! there is no "I", that's just athought! Not "MY" thought, just a thought floating around belonging to no one......and there it is, gone :)

Yes, all these 'I' thoughts can just float away like clouds in the sky.

I suggest you sit with this realisation for a day, and then we'll check in to see what's happening, ok? Let me know tomorrow how it's going.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Odemira,

I suggest you sit with this realisation for a day, and then we'll check in to see what's happening, ok? Let me know tomorrow how it's going.

Okey Dokey.

Dave :)

[odemira]

How's it going, Dave?

Still feel you exist when you know you don't?
Or has that dissolved?

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Odemira,

Still feel you exist when you know you don't?
Or has that dissolved?

Yes, I still feel I exist when I know I don't, but overall I feel that I'm making progress, the "me" doesn't have the solidity that it used to (I don't think so anyway).

Sitting here, I feel that I'm sitting. When I look for a "me" of course there's none to be found. All that is found is "sitting" which the body handles admirably on it's own, and the thought "I'm sitting". When the thought "I'm sitting" is discounted, all that remains is sitting.

So I guess, what I'm saying is that it feels more "natural" to be me, that it seemingly takes an effort to discount the "I" thought that permeates all that is experienced.

What is truly frustrating to me though is to look intently at that "I" thought, to see clearly that it's JUST a thought, and not even MY thought, but just a thought that was not created by me or any other entity. It just appeared, and I know it is meaningless, yet I still feel like I exist, I just can't get past it!

Thanks for your patience Odemira.

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Getting there!!

Sitting here, I feel that I'm sitting. When I look for a "me" of course there's none to be found. All that is found is "sitting" which the body handles admirably on it's own, and the thought "I'm sitting". When the thought "I'm sitting" is discounted, all that remains is sitting.

Yes - remember, the mind is a labelling machine, just what it does! What if you keep looking and not finding a 'you', what will your mind do?

What is truly frustrating to me

I just can't get past it!

Sounds like a lot of expectations that you should be able to see this, and that should be happening now? Can you just let these thoughts go? If there's no 'you' who is in control of what the body does or the thoughts that arise, how can 'you' be responsible for not achieving this?

t feels more "natural" to be me, that it seemingly takes an effort to discount the "I" thought that permeates all that is experienced.

Sure, the belief in an 'I' is a habit, but if you keep looking for it and not finding it, the belief falls away. Like when a kid's first told that Santa isn't real, he may not believe that straight away, but if he keeps looking for him and never seeing him, then what?

Just keep looking for the 'I', notice how it can never be found outside of a thought of an illusory character.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Odemira,

Ughh!!! A terrible relapse happened this morning. I have no clue why but I was suddenly very much "me" and I just couldn't reason it away. When I asked "who am I?" the answer was a resounding "me" And it took me a while to get around that. Then a couple hours later just as suddenly as it came, it vanished and I could see that there was no "I" again ........ quite a scare =\

What if you keep looking and not finding a 'you', what will your mind do?

I don't know, I can only imagine that the idea of a me will fade, we'll see.

Sounds like a lot of expectations that you should be able to see this, and that should be happening now?

Yes, very much so! I'm on fire with this, I need to be done!

Can you just let these thoughts go? If there's no 'you' who is in control of what the body does or the thoughts that arise, how can 'you' be responsible for not achieving this?

I guess that would be the sensible thing to do, but I'm afraid that I'm not "getting it", and quite frankly this is on my mind constantly and I'm exhausted. I need to be done! As you point out though, there is no "I" to "get it", nor anything to "get" nor anyone who needs to be done, and the exhaustion is just happening....... to no one.

Just keep looking for the 'I', notice how it can never be found outside of a thought of an illusory character.

Yes, there is no one typing right now just typing happening spontaneously, and an "I" thought. I never had a thought, EVER. I was never in control, life is on autopilot, and "me" is just a word that points to nothing real.

I have doubts though, I'm beginning to think that the thread subject line should be "Why do I feel that I exist when I THINK that I don't?" Because if I KNEW that I didn't then wouldn't it be all over by now?

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

When I asked "who am I?" the answer was a resounding "me" And it took me a while to get around that.

Yes, I understand that would take the mind a while to get around, because you've posed an impossible question. Saying 'who am I' presumes that there is a 'who' present. And remember, the mind is a labelling machine, instantly ready with its big pile of labels saying ME. What if you ask 'What am I?' - what answer arises then?

I'm afraid that I'm not "getting it",

Ah yes, it's common for there to be some fears lurking when we start looking into the non-existence of the self. The fear is there to protect something - what is it protecting, Dave? What's the worst that could happen if you don't get this? And what's the worst that can happen if you do get this? Don't take the first answer that springs to mind, but sit quietly with both of these questions and allow the truth to emerge.

there is no one typing right now just typing happening spontaneously, and an "I" thought. I never had a thought, EVER. I was never in control, life is on autopilot, and "me" is just a word that points to nothing real.

So when I asked you to LOOK, this is what you saw, the typing and an I thought. Clarity, yes? For a moment. It's easy to stop looking once the first seeing of no-one typing happens, and then the I thought starts rolling again. So you need to look into the place where the 'I' thought points to. Exactly what seems to be there? What does that feel like?

Notice what happened next:

I have doubts though, I'm beginning to think that the thread subject line should be "Why do I feel that I exist when I THINK that I don't?" Because if I KNEW that I didn't then wouldn't it be all over by now?

Are these what was seen or what was thought? And what's happened to the clarity of seeing no-self?

We have a weird belief that if we think something it must be true. Have you ever half glanced at something in the semi-darkness and thought it was one thing but as you got closer realised it was another? The first thought was not true. If you think about a pink unicorn, does that make it real? The thought is a real happening, but what about the content of the thought? What about the thoughts about an I - are the contents of those thoughts true? Or are they about an illusion?

I'm on fire with this,

Good, it's the fuel that keeps the looking happening, and remember, there's no you controlling that, it's just what is happening. :)

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Yes, I understand that would take the mind a while to get around, because you've posed an impossible question. Saying 'who am I' presumes that there is a 'who' present. And remember, the mind is a labelling machine, instantly ready with its big pile of labels saying ME. What if you ask 'What am I?' - what answer arises then?

"who", "what", I know exactly what you mean here, but in this case this is merely semantics. I had realized many months ago when I first encountered self-inquiry, that the question "what am I' made more sense than "who am I", but I was just quoting the generally accepted convention. That said, the question posed either way is a misleading one, because there is no self by ANY name, be it a who or a what, there is only what is, and a thought about a who or a what it is that sees what is. There is no seer of what is, no who, what, self, I, me, Consciousness, god, awareness, knower, etc.

Ah yes, it's common for there to be some fears lurking when we start looking into the non-existence of the self. The fear is there to protect something - what is it protecting, Dave?

Haha! I didn't know the answer, and then 'POP!' there it was! the fear is protecting me, or rather the erroneous belief of me. the unconscious thought being something like -If I don't get this then..........etc, etc.-

What's the worst that could happen if you don't get this? And what's the worst that can happen if you do get this?

Hmmm, the worst thing that could happen if I don't get this?...... My immediate response would be that I'd be stuck as I am. But that answer makes no sense, in fact the question - either of the questions for that matter - make no sense and actually just dissolve with the realization that there is no one to get anything!

The initial response is just habit, - the inertia of life living as Dave - which isn't true. It only appears true when It gets belief to back it up. As I'm sitting here there isn't that belief, how wonderful, freeing.

A thought is lurking that asks "Will this last, or will I come back to normality with a thud like I always do?, Just five minutes ago "I" was making coffee, and now there is no one sitting here typing, when will this stabilize?" .......... thinking................the realization that that is just more of the same protection, protecting nothing but an erroneous belief in "me" Haha! What a game! "Way to make it hard!!" It isn't hard, THERE IS NO ME!!

So when I asked you to LOOK, this is what you saw, the typing and an I thought. Clarity, yes? For a moment. It's easy to stop looking once the first seeing of no-one typing happens, and then the I thought starts rolling again. So you need to look into the place where the 'I' thought points to. Exactly what seems to be there? What does that feel like?

The "I" thought is hard to catch a snap shot of, probably because it's pointing to nothing real or unchanging - the fiction of Dave changes constantly, and is so impossibly convoluted that you'd never catch hold of it -. I think it gains some solidity because it's always accompanied by a feeling in the chest, and/or head, that I think is a very subtle muscle contraction.

Are these what was seen or what was thought? And what's happened to the clarity of seeing no-self?

Just thoughts, protecting that which isn't real!

I don't know what happens to the clear seeing? It can't be the the self is fighting for survival, because it doesn't exist. What a conundrum? First there is the obvious - that everything is just as it is - and then comes a thought "I'm seeing/experiencing, whatever it is, and I guess through force of habit that thought is believed. I'm unclear Odemira, I can't explain where the clear seeing goes? ..............I guess it never DOES go actually, but is overshadowed by the belief "it went away" AH HA!! That's it! How can clear seeing ever "go away" that's absurd!! It's merely the thought process of the fictitious "me" saying "it went away"

It's almost 5 decades of conditioning Vs the truth, but the 5 decades of "me" WEREN'T THE TRUTH!! How can "me" survive the truth? There is no me, never was.

Good, it's the fuel that keeps the looking happening, and remember, there's no you controlling that, it's just what is happening. :)

Look, look, look, there's no going back!! This is a roller coaster for sure, but each time clarity comes it seems more real, and stays a little longer.

Thanks Odemira, I'm so grateful!!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

because there is no self by ANY name, be it a who or a what, there is only what is, and a thought about a who or a what it is that sees what is. There is no seer of what is, no who, what, self, I, me, Consciousness, god, awareness, knower, etc.

Yeah!

In fact the question - either of the questions for that matter - make no sense and actually just dissolve with the realization that there is no one to get anything!

Yes, amazing how tangled we can get in an imaginary web of fear. Until it's looked at and seen to be illusion. Freedom!

A thought is lurking that asks "Will this last, or will I come back to normality with a thud like I always do?, Just five minutes ago "I" was making coffee, and now there is no one sitting here typing, when will this stabilize?" .......... thinking................the realization that that is just more of the same protection, protecting nothing but an erroneous belief in "me" Haha! What a game! "Way to make it hard!!" It isn't hard, THERE IS NO ME!!

Yes, there is no you, you don't exist outside of a thought. Never have done, you only thought you did.

The "I" thought is hard to catch a snap shot of, probably because it's pointing to nothing real or unchanging - the fiction of Dave changes constantly, and is so impossibly convoluted that you'd never catch hold of it -. I think it gains some solidity because it's always accompanied by a feeling in the chest, and/or head, that I think is a very subtle muscle contraction.

How can a snap shot be taken of something that doesn't exist - I know you didn't mean snapshot literally, but just want to point to how the pure fiction of Dave's movie gets created.
If a muscle in your leg contracts, does that mean there's an 'I'? Or is it just a muscle contraction happening in the body?
If a muscle in your chest contracts, does that mean there's an I? Or is it just a muscle contraction happening in the body?
If there's a feeling in the head, does that really mean there's an I?
Check these out, and notice how the illusion gets built. As you say, what a game!

AH HA!! That's it! How can clear seeing ever "go away" that's absurd!! It's merely the thought process of the fictitious "me" saying "it went away"

Aha indeed, yes! So glad you've seen this :)

Look, look, look, there's no going back!! This is a roller coaster for sure, but each time clarity comes it seems more real, and stays a little longer.

Yes, so keep focusing on the looking at direct experience, and when the thoughts of 'I' arise, which they will do, you now have the experience of seeing their absurdity.

Let me know how this settles in.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Yeah!

Yeah indeed! So simple! Beautiful!

How can a snap shot be taken of something that doesn't exist - I know you didn't mean snapshot literally, but just want to point to how the pure fiction of Dave's movie gets created.
If a muscle in your leg contracts, does that mean there's an 'I'? Or is it just a muscle contraction happening in the body?
If a muscle in your chest contracts, does that mean there's an I? Or is it just a muscle contraction happening in the body?
If there's a feeling in the head, does that really mean there's an I?
Check these out, and notice how the illusion gets built. As you say, what a game!

All these are just physical sensations, I guess they "seemed" to mean something because for years the physical sensations felt at times of stress, fear etc., went unexamined, and just became built into the belief system of a fictitious "me"

AH HA!! That's it! How can clear seeing ever "go away" that's absurd!! It's merely the thought process of the fictitious "me" saying "it went away"

Aha indeed, yes! So glad you've seen this :)

I have seen this, and I think maybe on a subconscious level. This morning as I lay in bed I didn't feel particularly "clear", but I was very relaxed about it. Even though the "clear seeing" wasn't apparent, I guess I felt that it was fine just the way it was....no problem.

Yes, so keep focusing on the looking at direct experience, and when the thoughts of 'I' arise, which they will do, you now have the experience of seeing their absurdity.

Let me know how this settles in.

Yes, the "I" thoughts persist, but, firstly, and I'm not sure about this. The "I" thoughts don't "seem" to be around as often, but I'm not sure as it's hard to be aware of something that isn't there. Second, even when the "I" seems it's realest, there's no problem as I know it isn't real, and that all I need do is look at the experience for the "I" and find it isn't there.

I clearly still have work to do, though I strongly intuit that the 'work' is doing itself quietly in the background - which of course it is - but I'm not at this point overly concerned about it :)

As I said a couple paragraphs ago, this morning when I woke it felt like "I" was real, but at the same time I knew it wasn't, and there wasn't a problem, or even a desire to change anything.

I'll be in touch!

Thanks Odemira <3

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

So simple! Beautiful!

:))

So has the shift happened, have you SEEN through the illusion of a self?

If so when and how did that happen?

How are you feeling? What's happened to the burning frustration?

Are you ready for our final questions, or is there more clearing away to be done?

We do have a range of aftercare groups on Facebook once we're sure you're through the Gateless Gate, which support in the deepening of this realisation - which as you say is doing itself quietly in the background anyway.

with love
Odemira