I am ready for liberation

[Ela]

Hi Neeeel,
Thank you for your replay.

Take a look and see? Is there a thing called consciousness that believes in the thought? Or is the thought "I believe that" just another thought?

I spent some time looking more today. In drect looking with eyes closed there is only a feeling of alivness in the body, thoughts, feelings and perceptions (sound, touch, etc.) there is no such a thing as counciousness. this is another concept. "I belive that" is just another thought. Some belives are in the uncouncious, part of conditioning running on automatic. They don't a specific voice.

Yes, good noticing. A thought triggers feelings, which makes it seem all the more personal. Did you think the thought? Did you feel the feeling? Or is it all just happening? If its just happening, then is it still personal?

Yes thoughts trigger feelings and that makes it seem personal and true at least at the heat of the moment. As I remember when a thought "I am so stupid" came it triggered a feeling you can call anger and that seem very personal at that moment. Only later when I looked, II saw the process. Did I think the thought? No the thought just came (I notice there is a patern of this kind of condemning thought that runs on automatic ). Did I feel the feeling. The feeling also happenns by itself. Logicly It is not personal but it easy to get cought there and react on automatic.

Yup, its really that simple. As you say, the "I" word can be dropped, and walking still happens. And then thoughts pop up with a story about how "I was walking"
When you are in a situation where you are angry, or upset, even though you are swept up in it, you can still notice the thoughts and feelings flying around. You can use these times to look, as well as calm times.

Yes that can be clearly seen. I often drive the car and get lost in the thinking, but the driving still happens and I arive in the right place.
As I said before, it is hard tonotice the thoughts and feelings at the moment of feeling anger, but perhaps this will come when the whole thing will not feel so personal and sticky.

Im sorry, I dont really have answers to these questions. These are all questions about how to live with the knowledge of no self.

I read some more posts of liberated people and realised that all this questions and concepts comes because fear. As it was explained there the mind comes up with these thoughts that couse fear. I noticed today a lot of fear coming up with a worst case scenerios or trying to figure this out and reconcile this realisation with what I learned before through drem therapy and nondual teachers. The mind is trying to create another storey.

Remember that believing in a self, or being swept up in emotion, or resisting life , is also part of the flow. If you see theres no self doing any of it, then you see that getting caught up in the illusion, the dream world, is also automatic and spontaneous. It happens, until it doesnt. And so there is no need to feel bad, or like you have failed. You can always look again, and see that theres no you doing it.
This is just the beginning, if you want it to be. Theres a whole structure of beliefs and conditioning still in place, still to be seen and recognised.

Yes, if you see clearly that everything is automatic and spontenious then there can be a relaxation and allowing.

Do you have any doubts about whether you have seen that there is no self? Do you feel you have seen it clearly? Or does it still feel like an intellectual understanding?

I have seen it, but there was not a definate shift and from then on everything is cleer and it could not be the other way. I still catch myself feeling like a can accomplish something. So when you say "believing in a self, beeing swept by emotion or resit life is also part of the flow and there is nothing I can do, I understand it intelectually but not see it clearly myself. I would still react with some negative judgement if that happened. This is the structure of belives and conditiong operating on automaatic.
But you are right then when I stop and look again, there is no self enywhere.
I think that I have seen it, but I thought that it would be more of a definate shift and change in perception. For example as described by Adyashanti. This seem to be so simple, as in oh! it is true that I am not driving, how can I do that when it is only a thought in the head and a laugh (not even histerical). Then not much changes, doubts come back, conditiong still operates etc.

[neeeel]

I think that I have seen it, but I thought that it would be more of a definate shift and change in perception. For example as described by Adyashanti. This seem to be so simple, as in oh! it is true that I am not driving, how can I do that when it is only a thought in the head and a laugh (not even histerical). Then not much changes, doubts come back, conditiong still operates etc.

Its different for different people. some people get a big shift. Some people see through a small amount of conditioning, leaving a large amount still to be dealt with.
I somtimes have the feeling that the way I guide seems to only produce a small shift, so if you want to do some further looking with another guide, just to see if they can give you the final push, feel free to start another thread on the forum. I am also happy to keep going with you if thats what you want.

It seems you have had at least some sort of realisation, so I am going to ask you the traditional questions

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? What has changed, if anything? What has stayed the same?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over?

[Ela]

Hi Neeeel,
Thank you for your efforts. I also have the feeling that there is more clear seaing possible and keep reding other people posts. I answer the questions asi see it now.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
It is only a label put on top of what is happening in reality.
The "me" is a central character in a storey in the head just like Santa, Batman. The thoughts exist but the character is just a storey.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works.
The illusion of separate self happens when we as children learn that this (it is pointed to) is Ela, this is mommy, daddy, toy. The child assoties the body with the name and the then this fictional character starts to accumalate knowledge about itself. This assumption that I am this body and mind and I live my life becomes so habitual, natural and reinforced by everybody around that it is never questioned. This character in the head lives with the idea that it is separate entity that has to survive in this world and will some day have to die. It is a seeking and never finding satisfaction.This createds suffering.
3) How does it feel to see this? What has changed, if anything? What has stayed the same?
Everything stays the same. I noticed that I am not as much angry and judgmental about myself and others. When I remember that it all happens by itself, the only logical thing is to relax and I do have the feeling of relaxation. There is also more elivness in the body and excitment. I am so excited about this forum and realisation that I wake up at night and read some posts or think about it. (the question here is if this is more seeking ) I have more vivid dreams.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.
I actually described this today to my 19 yers old son.
I told him that this is about proving to yourself by looking into your own experience that the separate self does not exist in reality. "I" is just a label that is applied to what is happening in the moment or it refers to other thoughts about "me". I gave him an axample of driving a car when you get lost in thoughts and still get to your destination but later on say or think that "I drove here all by myself". I explained how the illusion of separate self is created as in the question above. I told him that there is this website where he can get a guidence in a form of questions that when investigated start to athe dispell the belive in separate entity inside, living this life, making decisions, judging people and self.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over?

There were many small realisations along the way but not a definate bing bang moment. The important one was when I went for a walk and said to myself "I am walking" - of course it is true -I am walking" What are they talking about. Then a realisation came that I can not walk , it is only a label in the head.

Thank you Neeel. I am greatfull for your help.
Let me know what you and other guides think. Did "I" pop? I can continue working with another guide if it seems that my relisation is mostly intelectual. I know that if it is intelectual, the seeking will continue. I had many of thouse aha moments where it made sense to me, but I quicly forgot that and kept looking somwehre ele but nothing changed in my lfe.
Waiting for your post.
Ela

[Ela]

Hi neeeel, Honestly I don't think that I poped. It is all intellectual understanding, but there is no moment of looking when everything is clear. I am not sure what that looking is, what is it suppose to reveal. If possible can I continue working with Ilona? How do I go about it?
Thank you,How do I go
Ela

[neeeel]

Ok Ive been in touch with Ilona she is too busy to take you on right now, but she says she will watch the thread, and I will keep in touch with her regarding my guiding. Is that ok?

[Ela]

Yes, that is okay. In fact I have been reading posts where the seeing happens and trying to just look expecting something special to happen and I tried and tried to look, nothing happened. I continued reading and came across something that made a difference. Somebody said I am looking not inside not outside, i am looking here. If i close my eyes there is no separation between inside and outside, just here. When you just look, you can see everything but yourself. That made me laugh and this was the moment when I saw that I am not in reality. There is everything else perceive and feel and think and there is an awareness of it but no separate entity doing it.
The is another post that put some more clarifacation into this mind about a point of view. - that what you look at and perceive is the only point of view, the rest is a storey. I am liberated as far as I can sea it. What do you think?

[Ela]

When reading my last post I noticed that I said "I am liberated". Who is this I ?
I remember something Ilona said that I have even copied because it clarified in important issue. "the character E
Foe example Ela was born with a lot of dislikes , preferences, talents, abilities and inabilities. Got a name Ela. This character is still playing her role in life as life. It is the way life experiences itself . Over the years she told herself that she has a me in control of this character, but this me is an illusion. The character is always itself. How could it be else? There is no need for I story" . This has clarified the issue I had with a baby as a character and personality. There is no person living life but live is living. This character i is a constant process of living at this moment and a idea if separate self is just a thought.

[neeeel]

To be honest, I dont think you have seen it yet. What you are saying seems to be what other people have written, or thoughts about things you have read.

with regard to my first question

Is there a self in any way, shape or form, your answer indicated that you arent seeing it clearly. firstly. Its a yes/no question, and you didnt really answer either yes or no.

secondly, your answer

It is only a label put on top of what is happening in reality.
The "me" is a central character in a storey in the head just like Santa, Batman. The thoughts exist but the character is just a storey.

"me" is just a word. What drives the character? Is the character real? the story is about the character Ela, how does the story of Ela get created?

Who or what is putting the label on top of what is happening in reality?
Who or what is creating the story?

[Ela]

]Hi neeeel,
Thank you for your reply,
Perhaps you are righ, I saw it for a moment but I still try to figure it out in my mind. I am happy to look further with your help.

It is only a label put on top of what is happening in reality.
The "me" is a central character in a storey in the head just like Santa, Batman. The thoughts exist but the character is just a storey.

"me" is just a word. What drives the character? Is the character real? the story is about the character Ela, how does the story of Ela get created?

Yes "me" is just a word. The character is imagined. The story of Ela started with the identification of the feeling of alivness, presence in the body with the body by larning from parents that this is Ela (by pointing to the body) and noticing that other bodies are separate. Later the kid lears more about this "person" by interaction with people, things and repetition of the thought "I am this....."
The I though is created in the mind and thrugh many years of repetion is becoms an ssumption, uncouncious belive. It is not a real character so nothing drives it.

Who or what is putting the label on top of what is happening in reality?

The mind (you can say also live thrugh the mind) is labeling everything that is happening in reality and is also thinking"I am doing this or that"

Who or what is creating the story?[/
The storey gets created by the mind.
Have a great day Neeel,
Ela

[neeeel]

Yes "me" is just a word. The character is imagined. The story of Ela started with the identification of the feeling of alivness, presence in the body with the body by larning from parents that this is Ela (by pointing to the body) and noticing that other bodies are separate. Later the kid lears more about this "person" by interaction with people, things and repetition of the thought "I am this....."
The I though is created in the mind and thrugh many years of repetion is becoms an ssumption, uncouncious belive. It is not a real character so nothing drives it.

This seems a lot like what a lot of other people have written. In your direct experience, not from memories of childhood, or from stuff other people have written in answer to this question, what drives the character, how does the story of Ela get created? What is the mechanisms behind the story?

Who or what is putting the label on top of what is happening in reality?

The mind (you can say also live thrugh the mind) is labeling everything that is happening in reality and is also thinking"I am doing this or that"

Is the mind thinking? Is there a mind there that thinks? In your direct experience, have you experienced the mind?

[Ela]

What drives the character? How does the story of El a gets created. What is the mechanism behind the storey
When looking at my direct experience now, there is only perception, sensations in the body, thoughts and feelings. The thoughts come up and create feelings in response to some stimuli or other thoughts. The story gets created by repeating thoughts about the characterEla . There is stimulus
lets a say I see my hand the thought pops your hand looks old, then feeling of sadness comes. The thought I is constantly repeated so everything seems personal. I am sad. I am old. What drives this fictinal character(if you can say it like that) is thoughts (believes), feelings but mostly the "I, me. , mine thought"

In the direct experience I don,t experience the mind. There are only thoughts coming out of nothing. In direct experience there is no mind doing anything.
Ela

[Ela]

Hi ,
How are you? I have not heard from you for a couple of days.
Ela

[Ingen]

Hi Ela, Ingen here,

unfortunately neeel is not available for the moment. I hope it is ok if I take over?
[quote]

Your last post sounds pretty clear. How is it to live with this insight? Has your experience changed compared to before?

How is it to be out in nature, going for a walk. Does it feel different?

How is it to be together with other people, possibly irritating situations. Somebody is treating you unfair. How do you react?

[Ela]

Hi Ingen,
Thank you for taking over. I spent the last two days trying to check for myself if I know what it. What is it that you SEE. Yesterday, I saw clearly that when I LOOK - I just see everything - sight, sound, feeeking, sensation but not the self. I noticed also that when I got upset, the thought - I am angry came- and i was more upset, when i became aware of this, i refrased it to- anger is here, everything changed. I started to laugh and laugh. I said before that i had no AHA moment. If anything, this was the one that stands out. I wiil spend some time today looking in nature and at the situations you ask and write some more.
Whew are you located?
Ela

[Ingen]

hey, that sounds good! ...if you are not only rephrasing to "anger is here", but SEE that it is just an energy showing up, and disappearing again, together with whatever thought comes with it.

I am looking forward to hearing what you report!

I'm in Denmark. Where are you?