See Eye
So I'm reflecting on the "doer" notion. I can't really find a purposeful doer of any kind (me or something else); just a kind of complex unfolding is all I can observe. As if the idea of giving meaning in the unfolding has been superimposed.
SS
Ready to see - where do I start?
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Thought I posted this before, so forgive if it shows up twice.
You are doing good work, btw.
Flipping happens on it's own, without a doer. Organism "fish" flips to get back into water, because that is what fish do. Fish does not need to say to itself "I, this fish, must flip 'myself' back into the water". Fishness flips on it's own accord. Fish does not need to have 'I' thoughts to help this along and claim ownership or doership..."See, I am not flipping properly, I am a no-good fish"...now fish feels bad and then this also serves as proof of "I" and this goes on without questioning the presupposition of 'I'. Presupposition is not proof.
There just is no self in there...no me...no I.
NOW...sit down with all this and try this out.
Take a deep breath, close your eyes, 'look' inside for the self. Just look for it with the eyes and awareness.
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You see black, empty, silence? No self to present itself to you? Thought may arise, label it "sitting practice", feelings arise and internal dialogue and thought says "I am here" but only silence, blackness, space for this to arise in?
If depression is a label for some experiences, then "self" or "I" is a label for......?
Flip fish flip
You are doing good work, btw.
Flipping happens on it's own, without a doer. Organism "fish" flips to get back into water, because that is what fish do. Fish does not need to say to itself "I, this fish, must flip 'myself' back into the water". Fishness flips on it's own accord. Fish does not need to have 'I' thoughts to help this along and claim ownership or doership..."See, I am not flipping properly, I am a no-good fish"...now fish feels bad and then this also serves as proof of "I" and this goes on without questioning the presupposition of 'I'. Presupposition is not proof.
Dinosaur is not in the room here now. Asking where then is the no-dinosaur, or continuing to look for it does not prove it's absence, because the truth doesn't need to be proven, just seen for what it is.See Eye, I do see that, that "depression" is a label for some experiences, and that the "that's not it" came in the form of internal dialogue. I will work with this, and come back. Thanks! Also, I appreciate directness.
There just is no self in there...no me...no I.
NOW...sit down with all this and try this out.
Take a deep breath, close your eyes, 'look' inside for the self. Just look for it with the eyes and awareness.
-----------------
You see black, empty, silence? No self to present itself to you? Thought may arise, label it "sitting practice", feelings arise and internal dialogue and thought says "I am here" but only silence, blackness, space for this to arise in?
If depression is a label for some experiences, then "self" or "I" is a label for......?
Flip fish flip
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
See Eye,
If I just sit what arises? Bodily sensations, butt on chair, air in nostrils, Where is I? there is body, hand, fingers on keys, fingers depressing keys, sensations in ears, noises outside room, phone ringing, air in air system, memories, jaw tightness, voices, belly fat on thighs, thought comes: “that’s not good, must lose weight” resistance to what is, a kind of “no” to the belly fat
Who says no?
Who resists?
Resistance arises. What arises is labeled “I” (even in the question "who says no" the conditioned labeling of what arises as "I" is apparent)
Body wants balance, body’s natural state is one of balance, body out of balance starts to move back into balance and that whole movement is labeled “I”
The whole natural movement of the body in its environment is labeled “I”
Memory of experience is labeled “I”
The linking of naturally unrelated happenings and thoughts is labeled “I”; a kind of fabric of experiences and thoughts is woven; one independent thought is linked with another and this gradually creates a more and more complex fabric that is labeled “I”
This includes resistance to what is, that is also labeled “I”
And “I” is further strengthened by experiences labeled “not I”
For example I was listening to someone speak about a television series they enjoy and the thought came “that’s awful I would never like a show with so much violence” so the person talking became “not I” and the “terrible” show became “not I” and the violence of the show became “not I” and the writers of the show became “not I”
So the creation of “I” is a kind of “walling off” practice, a steady “no, no, no” to what arises
“I” is also an appropriation of experience, in the same but opposite way: body climbs a rock or paddles a kayak in a rapid and the thought comes, this is good, this is me, kayaker, rock climber, so some experience is “walled in” and some is “walled out”
But this only exists in thought, there is not really a wall. I looked for the wall; it is not there.
When I looked at the tree this morning with its shimmering leaves fluttering in the breeze, the tree was in awareness, it was not outside awareness. There was no wall between what I had before labeled “me” and “tree.”
There was weaving of an imaginary “I” suit all up until now. Now there is unraveling. “I” was woven with a lot of effort. Now “I” is unraveled with a little awareness.
"I" is unraveling . . .
SS
If I just sit what arises? Bodily sensations, butt on chair, air in nostrils, Where is I? there is body, hand, fingers on keys, fingers depressing keys, sensations in ears, noises outside room, phone ringing, air in air system, memories, jaw tightness, voices, belly fat on thighs, thought comes: “that’s not good, must lose weight” resistance to what is, a kind of “no” to the belly fat
Who says no?
Who resists?
Resistance arises. What arises is labeled “I” (even in the question "who says no" the conditioned labeling of what arises as "I" is apparent)
Body wants balance, body’s natural state is one of balance, body out of balance starts to move back into balance and that whole movement is labeled “I”
The whole natural movement of the body in its environment is labeled “I”
Memory of experience is labeled “I”
The linking of naturally unrelated happenings and thoughts is labeled “I”; a kind of fabric of experiences and thoughts is woven; one independent thought is linked with another and this gradually creates a more and more complex fabric that is labeled “I”
This includes resistance to what is, that is also labeled “I”
And “I” is further strengthened by experiences labeled “not I”
For example I was listening to someone speak about a television series they enjoy and the thought came “that’s awful I would never like a show with so much violence” so the person talking became “not I” and the “terrible” show became “not I” and the violence of the show became “not I” and the writers of the show became “not I”
So the creation of “I” is a kind of “walling off” practice, a steady “no, no, no” to what arises
“I” is also an appropriation of experience, in the same but opposite way: body climbs a rock or paddles a kayak in a rapid and the thought comes, this is good, this is me, kayaker, rock climber, so some experience is “walled in” and some is “walled out”
But this only exists in thought, there is not really a wall. I looked for the wall; it is not there.
When I looked at the tree this morning with its shimmering leaves fluttering in the breeze, the tree was in awareness, it was not outside awareness. There was no wall between what I had before labeled “me” and “tree.”
There was weaving of an imaginary “I” suit all up until now. Now there is unraveling. “I” was woven with a lot of effort. Now “I” is unraveled with a little awareness.
"I" is unraveling . . .
SS
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Super. Unraveling is happening.
If you take a nametag and write "I" on it...there is "that one there"...a body, feelings, thoughts, sensory inputs...but the nametag is not it.
The thought "I" is itself a nametag, concept, label. It points to thoughts and memories, and nothing else. What arises inside when you read this?
The name on a map "Chicago" is a concept meant to equal city, yet contains none of the city.“I” is also an appropriation of experience
If you take a nametag and write "I" on it...there is "that one there"...a body, feelings, thoughts, sensory inputs...but the nametag is not it.
The thought "I" is itself a nametag, concept, label. It points to thoughts and memories, and nothing else. What arises inside when you read this?
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
What arises when I read that “I” is just a label put to thoughts and experiences?
I can see very clearly that “I” is a label for various thoughts and experiences, nothing more. Some thoughts out of the cloud of all thoughts have been grouped together under the label “I.” Some experiences out of the cloud of all experiences have been grouped together under the label “I.” But “I” does not have an independent, or basic, reality.
But now the question arises, what does have independent, basic reality? What is there really? What is real?
I can see very clearly that “I” is a label for various thoughts and experiences, nothing more. Some thoughts out of the cloud of all thoughts have been grouped together under the label “I.” Some experiences out of the cloud of all experiences have been grouped together under the label “I.” But “I” does not have an independent, or basic, reality.
But now the question arises, what does have independent, basic reality? What is there really? What is real?
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Let's try this approach, let me know what comes up, and especially how it feels.
2) "WHO" is asking?
1) The question is the misstep. It takes you one step back from the gate. The question seeks to prove it's own presuppositions....which are...that any "what" can have an independent basic reality. That the asker can define basic reality. That reality can be independent from itself. infinite questions can arise. This one is a distraction from the realization that there is no "you" in there. You could ask the following question with the same feelings and intensity that you asked the one above...."How much rhinoceros is in popcorn?" Let questions rise. Say inside your head to them "thinking". Thought arises, say "thinking".But now the question arises, what does have independent, basic reality? What is there really? What is real?
2) "WHO" is asking?
Then why the insistence on making the "I" real by buying into it's insistence it is actually there because 1) a question arose 2) "I" (second thought) claimed ownership and thus existence 3) Some other "I" (thinking internal dialog) is now scrambling to answer a question. Look at this habit, and this presupposition of an "I" that has been assumed but never questioned.I can see very clearly that “I” is a label for various thoughts and experiences, nothing more.
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
See Eye,
Thanks for the response. What arose here upon reading it (over a period of a few hours) was a perturbation, an irritation; then some thoughts on how to respond; then a sitting with the ideas presented; then a realization: Nothing is knowable to nobody.
A kind of giddiness arose from the idea of an unreal self asking another unreal self what is the nature of reality. That is really, really, really funny.
Again, as with the earlier fish flopping, there is an unsettled feeling, a kind of elation I guess with what feels like a lot of space opening up inside. Also a kind of trembling, like my cells are jittery. A kind of recalculating is going on. There is also a desire to throw a whole bunch of things away.
SS
Thanks for the response. What arose here upon reading it (over a period of a few hours) was a perturbation, an irritation; then some thoughts on how to respond; then a sitting with the ideas presented; then a realization: Nothing is knowable to nobody.
A kind of giddiness arose from the idea of an unreal self asking another unreal self what is the nature of reality. That is really, really, really funny.
Again, as with the earlier fish flopping, there is an unsettled feeling, a kind of elation I guess with what feels like a lot of space opening up inside. Also a kind of trembling, like my cells are jittery. A kind of recalculating is going on. There is also a desire to throw a whole bunch of things away.
SS
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Yes.
Let that settle in for now, and when you feel like it, tell me about what's going on for you.
Let that settle in for now, and when you feel like it, tell me about what's going on for you.
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
See Eye,
Still recalculating. There is a letting down, a dropping away of expectations that arise. There is a sense of "waiting" for something -- that too is a step away from the gate, re-inviting the "I" to play out something. It's just boredom, that's all, a feeling of boredom, which can arise. So be it. Off to work. Thanks.
I'll come back after some time with this.
SS
Still recalculating. There is a letting down, a dropping away of expectations that arise. There is a sense of "waiting" for something -- that too is a step away from the gate, re-inviting the "I" to play out something. It's just boredom, that's all, a feeling of boredom, which can arise. So be it. Off to work. Thanks.
I'll come back after some time with this.
SS
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Is recalculating also happening in thought, so that more thought can come along and say "I" did this?
How is it going with you?
Care,
CI
How is it going with you?
Care,
CI
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
CI,
It is different. For example, it is now like seeing four characters instead of three, "Shelly" now being one of them. It is very different from before, when it seemed that "I" was seeing three other people in the house. And in fact it seems as if the "Shelly" character is more like memories of my mother and other women I have admired in my lifetime than memories once tightly associated with "shelly."
It is different. Traveled to see in-laws up in the mountains. Normally that would have been a struggle to sit through, with a painful and conflicted inner dialogue. This time the mind was much quieter, thoughts arose but there was no attachment to them, no appropriation of them, in other words, "I" wasn't having thoughts, thoughts were arising and that is all. There was a sense of relaxation. There seemed to be a lot of real simple beauty, and a kind of very crisp clarity, but I mean clarity in a different sense than what I used to think clarity meant. I used to think clarity meant knowing the right way, the best answer, right from wrong, good from bad, should from shouldn't. This clarity was different, simpler, without layers. Trying to describe it is challenging.
On the drive home from the inlaws, the kids were with their music in headphones, so it was quiet. The "I" tried to come back, but it was as if the "I" couldn't hold on, like it was grasping mush and it all just flowed out between the fingers. I wish I could remember the exact string of thoughts to put them here for you but they are too remote.
It's a little startling, the simplicity. The "questioner" is all quiet.
May we still touch based for a while? Daily or maybe every few days, as this settles?
SS
It is different. For example, it is now like seeing four characters instead of three, "Shelly" now being one of them. It is very different from before, when it seemed that "I" was seeing three other people in the house. And in fact it seems as if the "Shelly" character is more like memories of my mother and other women I have admired in my lifetime than memories once tightly associated with "shelly."
It is different. Traveled to see in-laws up in the mountains. Normally that would have been a struggle to sit through, with a painful and conflicted inner dialogue. This time the mind was much quieter, thoughts arose but there was no attachment to them, no appropriation of them, in other words, "I" wasn't having thoughts, thoughts were arising and that is all. There was a sense of relaxation. There seemed to be a lot of real simple beauty, and a kind of very crisp clarity, but I mean clarity in a different sense than what I used to think clarity meant. I used to think clarity meant knowing the right way, the best answer, right from wrong, good from bad, should from shouldn't. This clarity was different, simpler, without layers. Trying to describe it is challenging.
On the drive home from the inlaws, the kids were with their music in headphones, so it was quiet. The "I" tried to come back, but it was as if the "I" couldn't hold on, like it was grasping mush and it all just flowed out between the fingers. I wish I could remember the exact string of thoughts to put them here for you but they are too remote.
It's a little startling, the simplicity. The "questioner" is all quiet.
May we still touch based for a while? Daily or maybe every few days, as this settles?
SS
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
CI,
Many thanks, by the way. Many many thanks.
SS
Many thanks, by the way. Many many thanks.
SS
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Yes, we will stay in touch.
What is the "I" and the "self"?
Can you find them?
CI
What is the "I" and the "self"?
Can you find them?
CI
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Satya Shelly
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
I can't find it or see it. It's not here. What is the "I" and the "self"? A label for some thoughts and experiences.
Re: Ready to see - where do I start?
Are you expecting anything else to happen, or to reach some "state"?
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