Open the Gate and Step In

[Matt]

Keep pushing that: where the hell else could an "I" be found?! It was so vivid, seemed so solid and real, but can't be found anywhere?? Are all possibilities exhausted?

And yes, of course you're still looking—but you're also Seeing. Seeing without a seer.

Q: Can you accept the possibility that this is already subjectless, objectless Seeing?

I'll send the Gate Questions tomorrow. Use that expectation as an ultimatum if it seems right, or consider it as a playful experiment, if that's better.

All my best,
Matt

[shiva84]

Keep pushing that: where the hell else could an "I" be found?! It was so vivid, seemed so solid and real, but can't be found anywhere?? Are all possibilities exhausted?

Just for the sake of exhausting all possibilities, I looked in the one place I haven't yet looked: "outside" everything I thought myself to be (i.e. the external world). But I quickly saw no self there. It seems that all possibilities are exhausted. Is there someplace I'm missing?

Q: Can you accept the possibility that this is already subjectless, objectless Seeing?

Yes, I can accept that possibility. However, are the thoughts, sensations, body, awareness, etc. not objects? BTW, I'm very open to the possibility, but perhaps I misunderstand what objectless, subjectless Seeing looks like. I don't know that I recognize it for what it is.

Looking forward to the Gate questions! I will give them my full honesty and openness.

Thanks,
J

[Matt]

Okay, no problem, the "objectless" insight isn't important now, and it's true, this forum is just about "subjectless" seeing. More understanding can open up later, or not.
Only you can determine if there's anything missing in the inventory. How about: can an "I" be found looking around for evidence of an "I"? Is there an "I" blocking, or not recognizing, subjectless seeing?
Good night,

[shiva84]

Hi Matt,

Only you can determine if there's anything missing in the inventory. How about: can an "I" be found looking around for evidence of an "I"? Is there an "I" blocking, or not recognizing, subjectless seeing?

Okay, nothing appears to be missing. I've looked everywhere, including trying to see what's behind awareness (i.e. what sees awareness). I see no self anywhere. There's no "I" looking for the "I", nor is there an "I" blocking this Seeing.

Have a good night!

[Matt]

Excellent.

Gate Question 1:

Is there, or has there ever been, a self in any shape or form?

(Flesh it out, if you have time.)

[shiva84]

Gate Question 1:

Is there, or has there ever been, a self in any shape or form?

No, there is no self in any shape or form. Nor has there ever been. What I've thought self to be is now seen as a collection of transient, intangible elements that have no self in them. Body, physical sensations, emotions, thoughts, even awareness are all seen as "not self". Self is nowhere to be found, yet stuff is happening as it always has. As I look back to earlier life memories, I see that nothing has truly changed since the beginning.

LOL, it's amazing to see this, and very amusing at how simple it is :)

[Matt]

Beautiful! A few more questions, and then I'll deliberate with the LU team, regarding "confirmation". Okay?

GQ2: Explain what the illusion of separate self is, when it begins in life, and how it works.

GQ3: How does it feel, in the mind and body, to see this illusion for what it is?

GQ4: How would you describe this to somebody who has never heard about the illusion of self, or seeing through it.

GQ5: What exactly was it that opened this "gate", or allowed this "subjectless seeing" to be recognized?

GQ6: (My addition:) Does all of this amount to spiritual enlightenment, or another state or credential?

Thanks very much,
Matt

[shiva84]

Awesome! That sounds great, Matt :) I'm going to answer these one at a time, if you don't mind. That will help me give my full attention to each question.

GQ2: Explain what the illusion of separate self is, when it begins in life, and how it works.

The illusion of separate self is the perception that there is a real, solid person here, having this life experience, and that it's separate from the physical world and all the objects in it (including other "real, solid persons"). It relies on the assumption that all these "data points" we've been discussing (body, thoughts, etc.) constitute an "I". That underlying assumption becomes the context in which we frame our entire life experience.

I don't know when the illusion begins. I don't remember a time when there was no "me". I don't remember the moment, if there even was one, where I claimed selfhood. As far as I know, the illusion has been here since the beginning. I will look more deeply into this and see if I can find when it began.

How it works: Awareness is seen, physical sensations are seen, emotions are seen, thoughts are seen. Everything else in our experience (including the body) is a variation of these elements. We mistake these elements as proof of a self (the assumption I mentioned above). We assume there is a seer doing the seeing. We accept personal name and identity, and learn to relate to experience from that identity. Thoughts are framed in a particular way: "I stubbed my toe", "I like flan", "I'm angry", etc. The context lends itself to constant feedback that reinforces it. "Other selves" relate to us as a "self", we relate to ourselves as a "self", conversations and interactions are based on the assumption of separate self.

Next question soon! :)

[shiva84]

GQ3: How does it feel, in the mind and body, to see this illusion for what it is?

The body is more relaxed than before and has a lightness to it. And a softness. It feels like the body is a puppet, and it's just doing its own thing. Movements feel automatic, like I am not doing them. (BTW, there was laughter upon typing the word "I" in the last sentence). The head moves around a lot and looks at different things. There are spontaneous, jerky movements in the spine (I sometimes get this since starting Yoga, years ago).

There is a dreamlike detachment to this. My interactions with others (smile) feel more spontaneous, and not as serious. Thoughts are not happening as frequently, and they are quieter, more subtle. I feel more attentive, more present, like I'm noticing everything fully and seeing more clearly. I feel calm and very content.

Everything operates basically the same way as before, but there is a shift from being a "doer" to being this space in which everything is seen. The personality is still present and functioning, there is still reaching for food and drink to please the senses, there is still desire and intention, but none of these things are seen to be "me". They are not attached to. "Jeff" is still going about as usual, being "Jeff", doing "Jeff" things :)

This feels wonderful. Thank you so much, Matt for engaging in this conversation and pointing.

More answers to come. Hope you're enjoying your afternoon :D

[Matt]

I'm certainly enjoying your answers as they come in.
Thank you for going all the way with this.
Good night, brother,
M

[shiva84]

Good morning, Matt. Glad you're enjoying the responses :)

GQ4: How would you describe this to somebody who has never heard about the illusion of self, or seeing through it.

Hmmmm. Tough one. Okay, here goes:

If you look deeply into who you believe yourself to be, putting aside all assumptions and everything you think you know, you'll find that there is no actual "you" anywhere. "You", or the "self", is just a reference point for a collection of passing events. What we normally think of as the self: awareness, body, thoughts, emotions, sensations, personality, beliefs, preferences, etc., are ever-changing and short-lived. They are interdependent components of a mirage, much like a rainbow.

Is a rainbow real? It can be seen, but can it be touched or located? If we didn't know what a rainbow was, we might think it was solid and stationary. We might move towards it, hoping to touch it. But we know that a rainbow is dependent on sunlight, air, moisture in the air, and seeing from a particular location. Remove any one of those elements and it disappears.

The apparent self is much like this. It appears to be solid because we haven't looked deeply into its true nature. The self can be seen through, and this seeing is liberating. The seriousness of being a separate self lifts, and the play goes on by itself.

But this must be seen for yourself, so I invite you to look deeply.

[shiva84]

GQ5: What exactly was it that opened this "gate", or allowed this "subjectless seeing" to be recognized?

There were a couple of things.

1. Looking for "self-ness" in each component of experience.

The way you framed the question, asking if there was "a you" in body, thoughts, etc. helped me get clear that I'm not any of these things. I already believed I wasn't these things, but still saw them as aspects of myself. Seeing that they aren't "selves", nor have self in them, gave the experience of their emptiness and allowed me to dis-identify with them.

2. Seeing that I'm not awareness.

I had taken myself to be awareness, since that's the "deepest" thing I can see. When I looked for self-ness in the awareness, a shift happened in which awareness became just another part of the show. It fell off its pedestal and was seen to have equal weight and emptiness as thoughts, sensations, and everything else. This allowed me to see that even awareness is in this space of emptiness with the rest of it.

3. Seeing that "I" is just a context.

Even in seeing what I'm not, I still took "I" to be an entity. I believed there was an "I", it just couldn't be seen because it was behind awareness. Seeing that "I" is just a context allowed me to recognize its unreality. Knowing that "I" is a pointer helped me see what it's pointing to: nothing!

Final answer coming soon :)

[shiva84]

GQ6: (My addition:) Does all of this amount to spiritual enlightenment, or another state or credential?

No, it doesn't. This is simple clarity.

The thought that I should write and elaborate more is arising. But there's nothing more to say about this.

Matt, heartfelt thanks for engaging in this dialogue with me. I appreciate your precise pointing and for seeing me through this far. I'm excited to hear back from you about the "confirmation" :)

Peace bro,
J

[Matt]

Dearest Jeff, I believe you're through the gate! Beautifully so. I will deliberate with the team tonight, and see if there's anything they want to interrogate you on. There's one thing I wanted to ask, just for fun:

...allowed me to dis-identify with them.

What is misidentification, and if it presents a problem, how so?

[shiva84]

Sweet! That's wonderful news, Matt :)

What is misidentification, and if it presents a problem, how so?

Misidentification is taking what is seen to be the self. It's a habitual grasping at passing phenomena and trying to possess it. In order for self to be, there must be "other", so some of what is seen is rejected as "not me" or "outside of me".

Put more simply, misidentification is a passing thought which tries to hold onto other passing thoughts.

It presents a problem because we already see the transitory nature of body, thoughts, sensations, "the person". This causes suffering because we know that "I" will not last. We've invested a sense of self in the temporary.

Looking forward to hearing from you! Have a great evening :)

Love,
J