Nezinau

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :)

Seeing the cigarete , simply seeing = colours (seeing)
Thought about smoking , simply = thought (thinking)
Hearing the surrounding , simply = sound (hearing)

It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

One small correction …

Smelling the smoke , simply = feeling sensation

Smelling the food , simply = feeling sensation
Feeling the taste , simply = feeling sensation

These are not tactile sensations. It’s more like:

Smelling the food , simply = smelling/smell
Feeling the taste , simply = tasting/taste

Please give me one more example to see that you are clear on the DE labels

Now that you know how to look let’s investigate “body” as in:

I cant find the I in my body i close my eyes and cant find it ...

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

It not that I force my self , to do every thing in to practice , just time after time it comes is just a sound oh , it's just a thought and so on ....

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear

Maybe I don't unerstand the question - taking the cold bottle from the frdge - I feel sensation in my arm/fingers , The thought comes its cold , The sensation appears in arm.
- first senstaion , then the thought its cold.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No - , but the thought rises that it can show it and is trying to measure it in different way - dont know how to express in words , but i see the the thought saying that is trying to measure like a jam in the system.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No , but after the question i see the thought o mind trying to measure it o understand in defeferent ways .

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

when eyes are closed - no it doesn't have , but the thoughts try or the mind tries to measure it idn different ways , like a glitch in the system that is trying to to measure find shape or a form but can't find it .

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

One sensation...

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

When eyes closed, first of all what is the body :) so the second thing it's some kind of the space. But the the thought rises that its my body , the other thought how it could be not your body ... But its just some kid of the space ....

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

the sensation - is that is some kind of the space , that fells like inside - but inside is the thought , when you try to look for the the boundary of outside you can;t find it. But when you question is their outside also you can't find the boundary of outside to inside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label body refers to a thought about the imagined body shaper. The actual experience of the thought / label body is the space

Can the 'body' do things?

I don't know :) the body as the whole the thought comes no , I dont know ... If the thought is it can do so what label body can do ? you breath is it the body breathing or its just breathing, does the blood goes throught the vains , if we take the body as the whole yes its a biological machine in which a lot of process goes ...

Rali thanks :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas,
Good.

I feel sensation in my arm/fingers , The thought comes its cold , The sensation appears in arm.
- first senstaion , then the thought its cold.

Great! You are beginning to notice the order clearly: sensation first, then the label “cold.” That is exactly the kind of observation I am asking for. Now let us sharpen it further.
When you say, “The sensation appears in the arm,” is an arm actually experienced, or is there sensation plus a thought saying “arm”?
Look again with eyes closed.
Can a location called “arm” be found in the sensation itself?
Or is there only sensation, and then a mental image or label placing it in an arm?

The label body refers to a thought about the imagined body shaper. The actual experience of the thought / label body is the space

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensations, colours, maybe some smells :), and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience, only thoughts about a body.
Look carefully: is “space” directly experienced, or is “space” another word added by thought?
Do not search for a better description. Notice what is there before description.

when eyes are closed - no it doesn't have , but the thoughts try or the mind tries to measure it idn different ways , like a glitch in the system that is trying to to measure find shape or a form but can't find it .

Is a glitch actually experienced? Or is there simply a thought attempting to create shape, size, or position?

I don't know :) the body as the whole the thought comes no , I dont know ... If the thought is it can do so what label body can do ? you breath is it the body breathing or its just breathing, does the blood goes throught the vains , if we take the body as the whole yes its a biological machine in which a lot of process goes ...

Please do not answer from biology or general knowledge. Here is an even deeper investigation of the body to help you with that. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times. Keep the answers brief. Report only what is directly observed. Avoid explanations such as “the mind,” “the system,” “space,” “energy,” or “biological machine” unless those are themselves clearly identified as thoughts.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Do not tell me what you believe the exercise means. Tell me only what was actually found.
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali ,

Best regards - I am on the holidays with family so My replies could take a litle bit longer , I wanted to thank you first of all for guiding

When you say, “The sensation appears in the arm,” is an arm actually experienced, or is there sensation plus a thought saying “arm”?

Actually experienced is only the sensation, the thought is sensation is happening in the arm.

Can a location called “arm” be found in the sensation itself?

no

Or is there only sensation, and then a mental image or label placing it in an arm?

Its the sensation first , then the location , then mental image of where it is .

is “space” directly experienced, or is “space” another word added by thought?

another word added by thought .

Is a glitch actually experienced? Or is there simply a thought attempting to create shape, size, or position?

a thought attempting to create shape and size and postion

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Thoughts suggests that there is.

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No.

4

. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Only thought suggest it.

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Coulours and shapes

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Thoughts suggests so

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensation

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensation

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Thought about walking

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Oy thought about a body

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No, just a thought

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Only an image that is labelled as room and appearing wtihotuh any location

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas,
Enjoy the holiday, and take your time replying.
The distinction is becoming clearer - sensation is present. Then thought supplies “arm,” “body,” “room,” “walking,” location, shape and ownership.

During the day, notice when the label “body” appears. When sitting, standing, washing, eating, or walking, pause and check:
What is actually present before the word “body” appears?
Are there only sensations, colours, sounds and thoughts?
Does any sensation itself say, “I am the body”?
Does the image seen in a mirror or window say, “This is me”?
When the thought “my body” appears, what makes the sensations or image “mine”?
Please give two or three examples from ordinary life where the body seemed obvious, and then describe what was actually found when you looked.

Let’s follow this up with the following experiments which look at the belief that thoughts and mental images are coming from the head, somewhere around the forehead; therefore thoughts are stored in the head.
When we try to trace back the origin of a thought, it is often believed that it's coming from the forehead, because the attention automatically goes to the sensation of the forehead. Investigate this carefully as often as you can throughout the day. Close your eyes and look to see what the DE of the ‘forehead’ is. Then look at the following questions.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead, right?

So, can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?
Does the mental image suggest in any that it is a ‘forehead’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘forehead’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘me’?
Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’ is a forehead or a me?

Furthermore, it's also believed that 'visual sights' are coming from the eyes, because when it's investigated the attention automatically goes to the sensation 'of the eyes', and at the same time the mental image or idea 'of the eyes' appear with it. So another sense of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

What are the eyes in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image + thoughts about eyes, right?
Can sight (colour) come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?
Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Does a mental image suggest in any way that it is eyes?

Have fun with these! Play with them and see what comes out. Don’t rush to report!
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

During the day, notice when the label “body” appears. When sitting, standing, washing, eating, or walking, pause and check:
What is actually present before the word “body” appears?
Are there only sensations, colours, sounds and thoughts?
Does any sensation itself say, “I am the body”?
Does the image seen in a mirror or window say, “This is me”?
When the thought “my body” appears, what makes the sensations or image “mine”?

While exercising, I notice — it says, "look, you're doing the exercise wrong with your arms." First comes the sensation , then the thought arrives.
Before that, a sensation appears — it's just a sensation, which thought then weaves a story around.

Walking up the stairs, it says, "I'm tired." A sensation came — some kind of muscle sensation, just a sensation — but a label was placed on it: "look, you're tired, your body is tired."

The pool — I see my belly, and thoughts start comparing: "there's your belly, you could have eaten better." It's just a thought. First the image rise , and then the thought of comparing.

Cold shower — the cold water itself is simply a felt sense. Thoughts create "cold" and "very cold."

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead, right?

Yes .

So, can a thought come from a sensation?

No

Can a thought come from a mental image?

no

Does the mental image suggest in any that it is a ‘forehead’?

The forehead is just a thought

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘forehead’?

no

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘me’?

no , me is a thought

Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’ is a forehead or a me?
No. , if I understand the quesion correctly ...

What are the eyes in the actual experience?

A sensation + a mental image + thoughts about eyes, right?

Yes
Can sight (colour) come from a sensation?
No if I understand the question correctly
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?
no
Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Yes if I understand it correctly (the question)
Does a mental image suggest in any way that it is eyes?
I dont understand this question

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas
Good. These everyday examples are clear.
You are seeing the same pattern repeatedly - first, colour or sensation appears. Then thought adds: “arms,” “tired,” “belly,” “cold,” “my body,” “me.”

Now let’s clarify one point.

Does a mental image suggest in any way that it is eyes?

I dont understand this question

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?

Yes if I understand it correctly (the question)

When I ask whether a mental image “comes from” a sensation, do not look for a theory about cause.
In direct experience, can it actually be known that the sensation produces the mental image?
Or are there simply a sensation, then perhaps a mental image, then a thought saying they are connected?
The order may be noticed. But can a causal link itself be found? How is it KNOWN/SEEN that one produces the other?
Now look again at the eyes. Close your eyes and notice what appears. There may be sensation.
There may be a mental image. There may be thoughts about “eyes.”
Does the mental image itself contain the word or meaning “eyes”? Or is “eyes” another label added by thought?
Does the sensation itself say “eyes”?
Does the image itself say “me”?
Other than thought, what makes either of them “eyes” or “mine”?
Please answer only from what is directly found.

And just to make sure there is a clear distinction between what really is happening and what thought adds up, here is another exercise for you:

Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Vytas, a person, an observer, awareness or whatever else entity be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? What is there in seeing?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

W

hen I ask whether a mental image “comes from” a sensation, do not look for a theory about cause.

In direct experience, can it actually be known that the sensation produces the mental image?

No

Or are there simply a sensation, then perhaps a mental image, then a thought saying they are connected?

Yes, as i see mental image is created by thought and then connected to sensation

The order may be noticed. But can a causal link itself be found? How is it KNOWN/SEEN that one produces the other?

Actual link is a thought about they are linked together.

Now look again at the eyes. Close your eyes and notice what appears. There may be sensation.
There may be a mental image. There may be thoughts about “eyes.”

Does the mental image itself contain the word or meaning “eyes”? Or is “eyes” another label added by thought?

Eyes another label added by thought

Does the sensation itself say “eyes”?

No

Does the image itself say “me”?

No

Other than thought, what makes either of them “eyes” or “mine”?

Nothing only thought ,
Please answer only from what is directly found.

And just to make sure there is a clear distinction between what really is happening and what thought adds up, here is another exercise for you:

Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

I wont call it seeing its experiencing sensation “blackness with red lights” experiencing other sensations “ sound , breathing “

3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?

Blackness is a thought and now experiencing that it cant be found ,just experience…

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Vytas, a person, an observer, awareness or whatever else entity be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

Sensation of experience - I experience , but when looking/observing for I it cant be found who is experiencing

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? What is there in seeing?

IT can be felt but it cant be found.

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

As it cant be found or seen its a mental image / thought …

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas

Slow this right down. The answers are coming very quickly, and I want to make sure they are coming from fresh looking rather than from remembering the expected answer/ thinking about. Do not answer these questions immediately. Take one question at a time. Look for at least two minutes. Repeat the looking several times during the day. Notice whether the answer changes, becomes less certain, or reveals something unexpected.

Blackness is a thought and now experiencing that it can’t be found, just experience.

I wont call it seeing its experiencing sensation “blackness with red lights” experiencing other sensations “ sound , breathing “

We are investigating just seeing for the moment – obviously there are always sensations – subtle or not – sounds, etc…
The word “blackness” is a label. But is there colour present with eyes closed?
As I said - if you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. And I suggested calling it 'blackness' just for simplicity. You might call it “the seen”
It doesn’t really matter
What is actually there visually?
Now look at the phrase “just experience.”
Is “experience” something that can be found?
Does it have a shape, location, boundary, or substance?
Or are there simply colour, sensation, sound, and thought?
Be careful not to replace “I” with the word “experience.” Experience is a very loaded word as it usually comes with an experiencer…
Is there an experiencer?
Is there a thing called experience?
Or are colour, sound, sensation, and thought simply appearing, with thought later naming the whole event “experience”?

The mental image is created by thought.

Can that creation actually be observed? Or are there simply a mental image, thought, and another thought saying one created the other? Stay only with what is found.
Now look closely at this:

It can be felt, but it can’t be found.

What exactly is felt?
Do not call it “it,” “I,” “presence,” “awareness,” “experiencer,” or “observer.”
Describe only the raw experience.
Is there a sensation? Where is it? Does that sensation itself say, “I am the one experiencing”?
Does it know blackness? Does it see? Does it witness anything?
Or is there sensation, colour, sound and thought—and then a thought claiming, “I experience”?
Look now.
Can an experiencer be found apart from the thought “I experience”?
Is experiencing divided into: something experienced, and something experiencing it?
Or is that division added only by thought?
Please report exactly what is present before the sentence “I experience” appears.
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

The word “blackness” is a label. But is there colour present with eyes closed?

Yes

What is actually there visually?

Color

Now look at the phrase “just experience.”
Is “experience” something that can be found?

No

Does it have a shape, location, boundary, or substance?

No

Or are there simply colour, sensation, sound, and thought?

Yes

Is there an experiencer?

No

Is there a thing called experience?

No

Or are colour, sound, sensation, and thought simply appearing, with thought later naming the whole event “experience”?

Yes

Can that creation actually be observed? Or are there simply a mental image, thought, and another thought saying one created the other? Stay only with what is found.

It can be seen / observed

It can be felt, but it can’t be found.
What exactly is felt?
Do not call it “it,” “I,” “presence,” “awareness,” “experiencer,” or “observer.”
Describe only the raw experience.

It cant be described as every description is a thought (started laughing seeing how mind tries to say what is felt)

Is there a sensation? Where is it? Does that sensation itself say, “I am the one experiencing”?

Their is a senstaion , everywhere and nowhere it has no place.

Does it know blackness? Does it see? Does it witness anything?
Or is there sensation, colour, sound and thought—and then a thought claiming, “I experience”?

It a sensation , colour and thought , and the thought I experience



Look now.

Can an experiencer be found apart from the thought “I experience”?

no

Is experiencing divided into: something experienced, and something experiencing it?

no

Or is that division added only by thought?

its a thought

Please report exactly what is present before the sentence “I experience” appears.

color black

Thanks Rali ....