Enlighten me if you can! :-)

[Nick]

Hey Fred,

Enjoyed your last few posts, sounds like fun where you are with all the parties and fireworks.

It seems you've had a very awesome experience. I don't want you to get too caught up in the "altered state", or cling too much to the special experience. These states come sometimes, and they are cool, but they go away, too. Liberation is not a particular event, experience, or state of being. Let's keep investigating and make sure we do all that needs to be done here.

So, how is the experience of Fred here and now, today? I claim to you that there is no self, no Fred in real life. Do you still see this to be true today? How does that make you feel?

Was there ever a you in real life?

Nick

[Freddy]

Hi Nick,

Here and now, to be honest with you Nick, is the same as usual, not better not worst. I wonder if this was really seen in the end, or just maybe intellectualised but not yet really seen? Day to day experience is the same, although there is a complete understanding that the I is a figment of imagination and does not exist in the real world, the habit of living with its belief is strong and today for instance, there was still rather strong identification with the body and with thoughts, taking them as "mine" despite this comprehension, although maybe not as tight and when it happened there was knowledge that this was false and sort of letting go.

But this is something I have been working on for a while (being quite familiar with the concept of annata thanks to Buddha's legacy), and it does not feel much different in the end than where I was before coming on this website, although it is now clearer that "I" is just a mental phenomenom, a label placed by the mind on sensations, thoughts and emotions but with no more tangibility than any of these...

Right now this seems more like one of the insight stages, called Knowledge of Mind and Body, when a practicioner clearly discerns what is body and what is mind, if you see what I mean. And this being one of the very early srages of insight development, there's a feeling that a lot more is to be comprehended before being really free of all defilements, if you know what I mean...

Look forward to reading you my friend!
Fred

[Nick]

Fred,

Hey I thought we agreed NO MORE talk about buddhist stages and paths. That's a yellow card for you, Frenchie. Consider yourself slapped.

Seriously though, you are caught up in trying to fit your current experience into some conceptual framework with these "maps". That's not what we're trying to do here. You're still trying to attain something... it won't happen because there is no "you" that can "get" anything!

You seem stuck, so try thinking about this. All we're trying to do is see the truth of no-self. This statement "there is no you", it's either true, or its not. Pure and simple. I say its true in REALITY. This truth existed before Shakyamuni Buddha and all his crap, OK. So if you have to imagine yourself as some type of "practicioner", then forget about buddhism for right now. After all, Buddha was just an uptight Indian yoga teacher, an asshole, and full of shit most of the time anyway. Go back in time to before Buddha, and think like an ancient Taoist sage or something. This may help you to simplify your process of looking. All you need to do is to LOOK right here and now, using your physical eyes, and see if you can find a self, an I, or entity in any form.

it is now clearer that "I" is just a mental phenomenom, a label placed by the mind on sensations, thoughts and emotions but with no more tangibility than any of these...

YES YES YES YES.

It is clear that "I" is a thought, nothing but a label that occurs in thinking. So, let me ask you this - Can a thought think? Can a thought want? Can a thought get anything or attain anything? Can a thought EXPERIENCE anything as an experiencer?

Really look at this; you've taken the step to see that I is not what it seems. Now take the huge leap. Really look at the implications of this fact for you, Fred, in REAL LIFE and not in concepts.

Your friend,

Nick

[Freddy]

Hi Nick,

Sorry about that friend, I couldn't help myself. Honestly though, before yesterday there really was this feeling that this was done, that this had been seen, but then yesterday it was like life as usual, and so these questions came in and kinda screwed up the apparent clarity even more, as in "this is bogus, no self cannot be realised in just a few words / hours, this stuff must require more practice, and even that so-called clarity you had yesterday doesn't really feel like the end of suffering....." And so back to the old demons... I guess the "I" sense won't let go without a fight lol

The implications Nick, can you tell me what they are once this has been seen? Has it really changed the way you live your life and if so, how? Maybe this will help...

You are right I feel stuck to be honest, and quite tired today, mondays... What do I see right now when looking out of my physical eyes: hands typing this message on the keyboard, computer screen, colleagues and work environment in the background. Where is this "I"? Ok right now mind feels like designating this body as "I", as in "this is you right now living this." Why does it do that? Why does it have to designate an "I"?

Can a thought think, want, get anything or attain anything, experience anything as an expriencer? No no and no, a thought is just that, it cannot be or do any of these things...

Ok there is no "I", so what, how does that change anything, Nick? (maybe the "I" trying to rebell here).

[Freddy]

Ok just had a moment of clarity, guessing, the mind designating anything as "I" doesn't make it REAL does it? Again this is where fairy tales come and so shouldn't be taken seriously correct?

Ok Nick, what are the implications, and please answer my "So what " question.

Thanks,
Fred

[Nick]

Just a quick response, I am at work right now so I don't have tons of time.

The implications Nick, can you tell me what they are once this has been seen? Has it really changed the way you live your life and if so, how? Maybe this will help...

Here is a direct quote from my friend and fellow liberator Adrien, from a group discussion we had on facebook yesterday. The question from one member was - "What are the benefits/advantages to an apparent 'me' in seeing no-self?"

Adrien:

"fundamental direct perceptual shift that helps you realize first hand that everything you assume may not be true.

- it can put you on track to freeing yourself from suffering of any kind (with alot of work no doubt)

- it can also put you on track to getting free from a sense of self (with alot of work as well)

- it contributes to a slight detachment from your thoughts, which can aid you hugely in attaining a total detachment, this can help with stuff like meditation, or any other practice or investigation.

- for some, the realization itself clears out alot of crap straight away, not all by any means , but enough to make your life considerably more enjoyable almost instantly. And even if that doesnt happen, the insight will make you realize that your reactions are totally ridiculous. Realizing this first hand will give you motivation to do something about it.

- It offers real hope, as in serious direct experience that this shit is real, that what the Buddha talked about wasnt some wishy washy vague advice but that you now can confidently say that the very idea of attaining insight , is actually something achievable.

If any of us actually believed there would be no advantages to enlightenment we wouldnt be pursuing it, and yes, it all falls apart in hindsight, even the perceived advantages, and even liberation itself, but life becomes enjoyable as a result of experiencing your senses on a moment to moment basis, something far closer to the "truth", and not living in the world of ideas, and thats the entire point of this imo."

---------------------------------------------------------------

I'll get back to you later with some observations from my own experience, and some new pointers.

[Nick]

Ok just had a moment of clarity, guessing, the mind designating anything as "I" doesn't make it REAL does it?

YES!!!! You're totally right. The I or self is a thought, as we have already established. You can't get rid of this thought, or make it disappear. But it can be SEEN that this thought is bogus, that it's a thought about nothing. Like the thought of a unicorn. The thought is real, the unicorn is not real. The I thoughts, the "sense of self" is real. But its only make-believe, part of a story so that you can talk and interact with other pretend people in a pretend external world.

The great thing about liberation is that you SEE that this thought isn't real, and you no longer have to believe in it. The belief that everything is so personal, that everything is directed at some you inside, that there are others separate from you, in competition with you, all that bogus belief is dropped. Feelings and thoughts, emotions, "sense of self" continue to arise but the are now transparent. The arise in space like any other stupid thought. There is no actual person to think these thoughts. And so they are powerless.

You can't "make" anything REAL (to answer your question). There are 2 reasons. 1 - "you" don't exist and can't "do" anything hahahah. 2 - reality ALREADY is like this. You can't change reality. There is ONE reality, that's it. It's existed before you or me or buddha or anything. AND reality doesn't care what "you" believe or what "you" experience, it's real regardless!

[Nick]

You love stages and maps, here's a simplified scheme of stages-

0. Un-awakened: the belief in self, ignorance, sometimes happy, sometimes miserable, birth and death, all that crap.

1. Pre-awakening: the first inkling that things are not what they seem. The stage of "seeking". Actually more painful than stage 0.

2. Awakening: the seeing of no-self. The tipping point, no going back to "normal". The Gateless Gate. Where "Fred" is standing right now.

3. Maturity or "Self-realization": the rest of the apparent being's life, deepening the understanding, more insights into non-duality. Going FURTHER.

That's It. Now, all your buddhist stages could fit into stages 2 and 3. This is simplified, more like zen :)

You love buddhism, so here's my 2 cents. The 8-fold path. People spend too much time worrying about the last steps (right mindfulness, right meditation). The 1st step, RIGHT VIEW, is the most important because nothing else makes sense without it. There's no coincidence that we use visual metaphors here ("seeing" no-self, "looking" at experience). Ignorance in buddhism as you know is Avidya (not-seeing). So this SEEING of reality as it really is is a crucial first step. You SEE the whole picture - BANG - and everything makes sense. Things fall in place. Do you instantly become "enlightened" like a buddha or great sage? No, of course not. But this real, direct, experiential knowledge of reality will never leave you, and you can never go back to living the lie of separate self.

For me, seeing no-self was the most important event (or non-event) in "my" life. It was so simple, so surprising, and such a positive thing for the story of "Nick". I am not free from "sense of self", emotions, pain, etc. But there's no longer the tremendous weight of everything. Whenever things are overwhelming I can pause, LOOK once more, see that "Ah, of course, there is no me, there never was, it just seemed like it". And things loosen up. I argue less with my wife. I enjoy friends, family, co-workers and strangers more because I see that we are all the same nothing. My story life is more open and spontaneous because I no longer feel pressure to compete, compare, or take from others before they take from me.

And, deep inside, at all times, is the clear knowing and seeing of REALITY, real life flowing without any personal agency or "experiencer". This actually isn't any change, because this was actually there all along, full of happiness and love from the beginning, but its presence is more fully felt and appreciated and allowed to unfold naturally.

Hope this helps. Let's get back to YOU. I'm telling you that there is no you, there never was. This includes no doer, no experiencer, no "enjoyer" or "sufferer". Sense of self, maybe, but only illusion, no actual self in real life. Look, and tell me what you see.

Nick

[Freddy]

Hey Nick,

Thanks for all this man... I feel really close... But not yet through... there is a will to watch the sens of "self" as it arises and this morning there was one that really was seen for just what it was, a thought with no true independent, thinking self behind, but it was just a glimpse and vanished before it became a full-blown realisation... So will keep at it, if that's the right thing to do...

Actually since I started writing this message, the sense of self arose several times and everytime "I" looked directly at it to see exactly what it was, and it was seen as a thought, and it felt refreshing and easily dropped, but I feel that this needs to be seen again and again to really produce the shift that is often talked about here. So not there yet.

"I'm telling you that there is no you, there never was. This includes no doer, no experiencer, no "enjoyer" or "sufferer". Sense of self, maybe, but only illusion, no actual self in real life. Look, and tell me what you see."

I see "my" hands typing on the keyboard (grrrrrrrrr), the computer screen, "my" colleagues and work environment in the background. Not there yet, exasperating! Perhaps we could have a one-on-one instant chat about it?

I'l keep looking in the meantime...

[Nick]

relaxxxxxx................

You're still trying so hard to "make" something happen. This thing only needs to be "seen" once, and yeah you're so close. In fact you're looking right at it but not seeing it clearly. You can't "make" this happen because it ALREADY is true.

You describe "your" hands, "your" colleagues, etc. These thoughts are fine, nothing wrong or right about them. Just relax, see that they're just stupid thoughts. Not true in REAL LIFE. In real life its just hands typing, just people nearby right here and now.

Just shift the focus a bit, change the perspective. One analogy for awakening is an actor who's temporarily lost in playing the role of Hamlet or something. Fred is still on the level of Hamlet, thinking that Hamlet is suddenly going to stop in the middle of his speech and say "oh my god, I'm actually an actor, none of this is real!" Actually its impossible. Hamlet can never realize he is actually an actor, because he's not! Hamlet can't "wake up" because Hamlet isn't real, and neither is Fred. Just stories.

In reality its the actor who wakes up. The actor remembers that this play is not real, that Hamlet is just a story and not a real person (keep in mind that the "actor" is not meant to signify any real entity, just a metaphor for "real life"). Also, the action of the play never stops, Hamlet never misses any lines, the audience never knows any of this is going on. The actor is free to continue "playing Hamlet" because that's the role, and its a great play. There's no chance of thinking that he's really Hamlet anymore, but he can just pretend for awhile so that the play goes well.

So you see it's sort of like this. Awakening will happen, Fred cannot "make it happen" and it will not "happen to" Fred. No magic, no-one will disappear or anything. Just a moment of seeing the truth, recognition, "oh yes, of course it's always been like this", real life continues to flow along without interruption.

When I tell you this stuff, that Fred is not real and never was, is there any sense of fear or unease? Does it bother you at some level? Be honest.

Nick

[Freddy]

Hi Nick,

1st of all thank you for this awesome analogy, very nice and well put, this will be used again and again until this is seen.

Now to answer your question: "When I tell you this stuff, that Fred is not real and never was, is there any sense of fear or unease? Does it bother you at some level? Be honest."

No there is no sense of fear or unease, honestly. It's strange considering that this sense of fear seems to be prevalent amongst other unenlightened persons when this is told to them bluntly. Maybe it's the sense of identification which is less strongn here already, I don't know... I'll tell you what there is though: there's a sense of longing for that to be clearly seen, for Fred to suddenly appear CLEARLY in the open field for the illusion that it is, like a deer suddenly caught frozen in the middle of the road by the headlights of an oncoming car at night, haha! Will keep looking and looking until it is seen!

Thanks again Nick,
Fred

[Nick]

are you on right now fred, want to chat "live" for a few minutes?

[Freddy]

Darn, missed you. I'm on right now if you are...

[Nick]

Fred, you are standing at the Gateless Gate and have been for some time now. You have understood that there is no doer, no experiencer, and you feel no fear. But something is not clicking. I get your "sense of longing", you are a disciplined person with knowledge and have studied buddhism and all this stuff. You are perhaps still looking for some "attainment" like a special event or something. You are at the Gate trying to force your way through but you can't do it, because it isn't real! There is no gate to cross, you're already living in reality.

Try to keep looking. Right here and now with physical eyes. Don't sit in any special posture or anything. Get up and pace around the room. Go for a walk in nature or in a quiet neighborhood. Don't be calm or meditative. Use your anger and frustration to help you. Get pissed off. You've said it before - "I" is a thought, a label. Yes the self is a very intricate, elaborate artifice with a lot of structure to it, but it all rests on this tiny base - the thoughts I, me, mine, self. These are just stupid little thoughts, not about anything REAL. Get angry and look and see that the stupid thoughts don't distract from REAL LIFE. Check out the flowing here-and-now experiences of this moment. There is no "you" checking it out, it's just happening all on its own, including the stupid body and brain, and the thoughts that are gibbering away, labeling everything, calling out "I, me, mine, self" constantly -- it doesn't matter! They're like birds chirping in the background, nothing is separate from the totality.

Nick

[Nick]

hey we're back! Ok, i'll check in for the next few minutes if you want to chat