I'd like to speak to the manager

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

This is a pretty severe brain dump... so better buckle up! ;) There are way more questions than answers... in fact, now that I read what I wrote over again there are actually ZERO answers ;)

I feel like I just got pushed into the water and then someone says to me: how do you swim?

It's like you're telling me to look in this box that I've been carrying around with me my whole life and asking me to describe precisely what's in it. And when I open it up and look there's nothing there to describe. But then there's the thought: he's playing a trick on me and it's not that the box is empty, it's just that I'm not seeing what's in there. Or else I don't understand the question. I mean, why have I been carrying this box around my whole life if there's nothing in it and it doesn't mean anything. And then I think, well, who's carrying the box? If there's nothing in the box and there's no box and there's no one carrying the box then what is there? Nothing? But there's obviously something. Life is something. Something is going on. Something is seeking an answer. Something is asking a question. WTF does that even mean?

LOOK for the one who is seeking the answer to that question.

Where /what is it?

Who is it that is “worried”?


Where is that one?


What, precisely, does she/he/it consist of?


Please answer those questions PRECISELY.

I got nothing. The questions just don't make any sense to me. When I look, I mean really look, the first thing that happens is a reaction that just says ME. Like, it's ME, duh. And then it makes sense to say that's a ridiculous answer because the next question has to be what or who is that me. Then I seem to arrive at this place where I can't figure out or find or make sense of what's asking the question, so if I can't find it then the obvious answer is that it doesn't exist if I've looked and looked and looked and can't find it or see it. But, SOMETHING seems to be seeking the answer because something asked the question! So what is it that I can't find but can ask a question??? It feels like all I can say is that life is asking the question and life is seeking an answer. But what does that mean? So it seems like life is asking itself a question. But again, what does that even mean? That doesn't make any sense. Then the next thought is "maybe that doesn't make any sense because if it's true somehow then "I" am out of the equation and that REALLY doesn't make any sense" . But maybe "I" AM out of the equation. Maybe there is no I that's been a part of the equation and I've just been confused about who's doing all the things. But that just seems all intellectual, there's no feeling that that's true or understanding that that is true, it's just like arriving there in a Sherlock Holmes kind of way, where logically C follows B and B follows A. It seems like I'm thinking that, rather than seeing that. And that brings us back to me/I and… we're back on the merry-go-round of thought.

More: when I ask the questions you pose, it seems like something here is just avoiding facing the truth that "I" don't exist in the way that I think I do. It seems like the answer is obvious but something doesn't want to face that fact. Is the "thing" that doesn't want to face the fact the same "thing" that is looking for the answer and is that the same "thing" that is posing the question??? This is all very disorienting and confusing.

Then the question comes: who or what is confused? And… we're back in the feedback loop. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Perhaps this all just has to percolate.

I'll stop here for now and see if you can point me somewhere. I'm happy to just keep looking though… though "happy" is probably not exactly the right word ;)

Thank you Jeff.

D

[jefe2060]

3/15

😂Now we’re having fun!

Hi Jeff,

This is a pretty severe brain dump... so better buckle up! ;)

Nope. It’s just ONE thing, repeated.

It's like you're telling me to look in this box that I've been carrying around with me my whole life and asking me to describe precisely what's in it.

STOP.

YOU LOOKED INTO THE “BOX”:

…when I open it up and look there's nothing there to describe.

YOU SAID IT, NOT ME.

…But then there's the thought:

ACTUALLY, NO. THERE WASN’T JUST ONE. I COUNTED THEM. TAKE A LOOK:

1. he's playing a trick on me and it's not that the box is empty, it's just that I'm not seeing what's in there.
2. Or else I don't understand the question.
3. I mean, why have I been carrying this box around my whole life if there's nothing in it and it doesn't mean anything.
4. And then I think, well, who's carrying the box?
5. If there's nothing in the box and there's no box and there's no one carrying the box then what is there?
6. Nothing?
7. But there's obviously something.
8. Life is something.
9. Something is going on.
10. Something is seeking an answer.
11. Something is asking a question.
12. WTF does that even mean?
13. it seems like something here is just avoiding facing the truth that "I" don't exist in the way that I think I do.
14. It seems like the answer is obvious but something doesn't want to face that fact.
15. Is the "thing" that doesn't want to face the fact the same "thing" that is looking for the answer
16. is that the same "thing" that is posing the question???
17. Then the question comes: who or what is confused?
18. Perhaps this all just has to percolate.



JUST TO BE SURE, LETS LOOK AT EACH OF THEM.

ARE THEY OBJECTS OF (for each of the following, answer Y or N):


Seeing?


Hearing?


Smelling?


Tasting?


Touching?


Last month, my ebike was stolen a week after my son’s mountain bike was stolen. Right out in front of our house. It's the Netherlands, so, not a lot of gun violence, but there are typically a LOT of bike thefts.

I went into something of a panic, and had a big adventure trying to replace my bike.

I NEEDED ONE NOW!!!!!!!! We don’t have a car, and I couldn’t imagine how I was going to do all the things I had to do at the speed I had to do them without an ebike! There was just no way!!!!

I had a miserable morning. I won’t bore you with the details. Finally I hopped on my old $#!+ spare bike and rode to the place I got my other one, and couldn’t find anything there that I either wanted or could justify buying. They were all either crap, not what I wanted, or just too damn expensive (my cash flow situation has been rather bad in the last 6 months even though I have a big contract, I just can’t start billing for it yet).

On my frantic, miserable way home, I kept thinking, “I have to get a bike! TODAY!!!!”

Then it struck me.

I looked down.

I was riding a bike.

I had a bike.

The only problem was that I was trying to go too fast. Maybe if I just slowed down…

I did. I relaxed. And saw that everything was fine.

I had never had such a pleasant ride on that old bike before. I could actually see the beautiful landscape that surrounds the modest neighborhood I live in. I was “smelling the roses” and they were g@dd@mned sweet.

I’m very happy riding my bike around these days. I even connected my cart to it and do my shopping just fine with it. I take the bus a bit more than before, and I’m no longer in a hurry most of the time. And my legs are getting stronger again, just like before I got my ebike, but it’s a hell of a lot easier to ride when I’m not frantically trying to be some other place than where I am.

Life is short, and there’s a whole lot of roses.

This.

Just this, right now, isn’t ever enough for us, is it?

It has to be some other way.

So we fantasize – endlessly.

Even when we already have the answer we were looking for; even (especially?) when it’s the first thing we see.

Unnecessary thought is the shared, primary addiction of nearly all of the billions of people on the planet.

Let me know how all this lands.

You’re doing great, by the way.


Love,

J

[Enzymatic]

Jeff,

Thank you so much for this. Your words hit dead center. Dead center. More tomorrow once this has steeped for a bit.

Have a good night,
D

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

I'm out of commission today with a nasty cold. I'll be in touch when the fog clears, probably tomorrow.

D

[jefe2060]

Hi Jeff,

I'm out of commission today with a nasty cold. I'll be in touch when the fog clears, probably tomorrow.

D

Beterschap!

J

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the "get well" thoughts :)

JUST TO BE SURE, LETS LOOK AT EACH OF THEM.

ARE THEY OBJECTS OF (for each of the following, answer Y or N):

Seeing?
N

Hearing?
N

Smelling?
N

Tasting?
N

Touching?
N

All thoughts.

Let me know how all this lands.

Honestly, there's a huge amount of sadness and I keep making up stories about it. But I know the stories are thoughts and irrelevant here. I feel stuck. If thoughts aren't the answer and emotions aren't the answer and there's nothing describable in the box then… what IS there? But that question itself is a thought.

Why am I looking so hard for something that is already right here??? More thoughts.

When you said "STOP" in your last reply, that really hit me. Why am I complicating this? But the thought that I'm complicating this is just another thought.

I guess that brings us back to seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. At least those are real.

As you said, "Now we're having fun!" ;)

D

[jefe2060]

3/17

Honestly, there's a huge amount of sadness and I keep making up stories about it. But I know the stories are thoughts and irrelevant here. I feel stuck. If thoughts aren't the answer and emotions aren't the answer and there's nothing describable in the box then… what IS there? But that question itself is a thought.

Hey, easy does it.

First of all (sorry, I know, handing a drowning person an anchor isn’t exactly…well it’s a joke, anyway), if you look closely at emotions (well, all but one) you will see that they are constructs of thought and body sensations. So…there’s that. Not sure what “answer” emotions are supposed to be in your statement, but, well, glug, glug, blub, blub. Gurgle. Splutter. Feel free to explain what you mean.

Good you can see the irrelevance of thoughts / stories. Again, I’m a little confused by what “answer” it is you are talking about, so, please clarify that for me. And for you.

Why am I looking so hard for something that is already right here??? More thoughts...When you said "STOP" in your last reply, that really hit me. Why am I complicating this? But the thought that I'm complicating this is just another thought.

The reason you are struggling…ok, I’ll say it “clinically” and “political-non-dually-correctly”...the reason there is struggling is because the you that you think and feel yourself to be is habituated to living as identification with thoughts and feelings (body sensations), and when the “light” of awareness is shone on this game all the shadows disappear and there is nothing to be seen other than the thoughts, feelingings, and the energy it takes to keep the show going.

All the thinking, feeling, and freaking out because “I NEED A BIKE” (or whatever the drama du jour is at the moment) doesn’t change what is: I’m already riding a bike. There's nothing in the box. Period.

In this case, you looked. There was nothing there. So you thought and flounced and drama’d and fretted and p!$$ed and moaned and that made so much noise that you felt comforted by all of it but you had already seen all of that to be smoke and mirrors. Then you got sad, and that didn’t work either.

The emperor isn’t just buck nekked.

There isn’t one.

No matter how hard you try to make something out of nothing, the result will always be the same: 0 + Freaking Out will always just leave the Freak Out. And 0 will always be 0.

I remember when I was a teen and REALLY distressed. Gosh, that was true all the way through most of my thirties.

I would get incredibly emotional sometimes, even hysterical. I would go on and on, and frequently it hurt. Then there were moments when I would realize that all the clenching and screaming and crying was just giving me a headache. When the **actual** pain of that became worse than what was torturing me mentally / emotionally I would stop. Sometimes I would start again. But even in those moments of agony I would realize that when I stopped freaking out and was just quiet (even briefly), my crying and screaming had only changed the fact that there was less pent up emotional energy in my body. Nothing else was any different. The situation was still whatever it was,

If the box is empty, the box is empty. If that means you have to look at the fact that your whole life has been...well, you know better than me. But I've made plenty of ado, doo-doo, poo-poo, and adoobeedoobeedoo about plenty of nothing.

Just stick with it, let what happens happens, and don’t take your “self” so seriously. You’re doing great.
You just need to keep looking and learning to trust what you see. You’ve been hoodwinking yourself for so long along with everyone else around you starting with Mom & Dad or whoever took care of you and indoctrinated you well enough to survive for this long that you can’t trust you own [Not]I[’s]. Normal. The movie / series The Matrix didn’t do so darned well for nothing!
Personally, the “Gate” for me was terrifying.
But like just for a minute. Nothing that was known as fear changed anything, except the fear.

Everything object-ive experience...OBJECT-OF-EXPERIENCE...is...

...IMPERMANENT.

Let’s move on.
This one is fun.
(just a reminder to copy/paste & “quote” each question answered so I can easily keep track of which one you are answering).


Label-Reality Correlation
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience? Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

:>)



These are great too.

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up…and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?




Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

How is the decision made?


:>)


J

[Enzymatic]

Hiya Jeff,

I'm very grateful for your encouragement and the pearls of wisdom :)

Again, I’m a little confused by what “answer” it is you are talking about, so, please clarify that for me. And for you.

The word "answer" was meant to mean "me"... as in, "If thoughts aren't ME and emotions aren't ME, then what am I?". But that, as you said, was just more shouting and handwaving because I already know the box is empty. I just don't KNOW it.

Label-Reality Correlation

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience? Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The actual experience is the experience of red. The thinking mind gets confused, but the experience does not: red is experienced

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

The label does not have a one-to-one correspondence with 'reality'. If the label said 'VERT' the color that is here now would still be experienced as red. The label might "suggest" something else other than what is here now, but that suggestion requires a thought… or maybe even IS a thought. The THOUGHT being "the concept of greenishness".

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Green is just a label that overlays the experience of red. Green requires thought, while experiencing red does not. I wanted to be clear so I just flicked my eyes over the page in a quick motion and I experienced the red immediately. I SAW it. The only way to get to the green label when moving my eyes quickly over the page was to stop, look, read, and think.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

This is all super interesting. In my job I think about colors a lot, particularly red and green, because they're such common conventions for "stop, danger, bad, negative" and "go, good, positive" in our culture. So my immediate reaction was that the label 'GOOD' would not affect the redness because 'GREEN' and 'GOOD' are both equally unrelated to the experience of red but… that somehow magically using the label 'BAD' would somehow make the red more pronounced or hard to miss. But of course that's ridiculous. The experience of red is the experience of red is the experience of red, no matter the label… even if the label is culturally associated with the color, as 'BAD' is. So no, the actual experience of redness is not affected.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no affect whatsoever on 'reality'.

Palm Flipping Exercise

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. There's the thought of "it should turn up" or "it should turn down" and then it just seems to happen. But there can also be the thought of "it should turn up" and nothing happens… and then at some point it might or might not "turn up".

Does a thought control it?

There's a thought and there's the flipping, and it seems like the thought preceds the flipping, but I wouldn't say the thought "controls it".

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The decision just "appears". It's like the hand is doing what it wants to do when it wants to do it. The thought doesn't appear to be the decision point. The decision point seems to be somewhere else.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

The choice was just made. It was the right hand that got stretched out along the arm of the chair and started flipping, but no one or no thing appeared to be making a choice.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. I can't find ANYTHING making the choice, not a "who" nor a "what"

Raising Hand Exercise

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I have no idea. Really. It's like "life" is deciding, whatever that means.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No

What is it that is controlling the hand?

This is going to sound weird, but it's not like the hand is being controlled… it's more like the hand is just ending up in the air because that's what that hand in this moment is "doing"

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No

How is the decision made?

I don't know how to express this, but it doesn't seem like there's a "decision". It seems like one or the other of the hands is going up (or not) and that's what happens.

***********************************************

I very much appreciate the directness and frankness that's comes across in your posts.

Also, I meant to tell you that I understood your bike story much better than I would have a year ago, as I made my first ever visit to Amsterdam last year. I laughed when you wrote that a LOT of bikes are stolen there because… yeah… TONS of bikes! More bikes than I've ever seen in once place in my life.

D

[jefe2060]

Hey well fukengruven!

I'm too sleepy to do much more than smile and be inspired and delighted by what you are seeing.

I'll just suggest that you take some time, perhaps reviewing the work you just did, the questions you answered, the experiences you had that allowed you to report as you have just done, and to reflect on the implications of what you have seen, and what you have not seen.

Enjoy it.

Love

J

[jefe2060]

Heyyy there!

Lettttttsssss GOOOOOOOOO!

Housekeeping:
From here on out please copy paste all of my instructions and individual questions prior to writing your answers to them so I don't have to figure out what exactly we are talking about or where we are.

Use the quote function for my questions and write your answers in plain text afterwards.

“The word "answer" was meant to mean "me"... as in, "If thoughts aren't ME and emotions aren't ME, then what am I?". But that, as you said, was just more shouting and handwaving because I already know the box is empty. I just don't KNOW it.”

You looked into a box and the box was empty.

Look again.

Is it still empty?

What is there?

Are Thoughts there?

Do they arise from there…

…or from someplace else?

Are body sensations (Touch / “Touchings”) there? Do they arise from there?

…or from someplace else?

Please write out and answer the same questions with the other senses.


…

Now, hold on to your horse, your hat, or your sense of you (if you can! ;>)

Who ya gonna call??? “Self”Busters!

;>)


Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions?

Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

Can you find anywhere where the stream autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?


Decisions, Decisions! ;>)
Now please pick a few regular decisions to make, and then make them.

For example, choose something to wear or take off, something to eat, to sit, stand, or go into another room...these can be anything.

Please note what each of these are, and describe what happens.

Of course, there are environmental factors, there are color / taste preferences practical issues (such as what is available,time needed for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for "that person"!) etc, but:

Where do any of those things come from?

Do you find any autonomous, separate entity -- a "you" intervening anywhere?

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening anywhere in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

Can anything be found for which "D" is responsible?

If so, responsible to what and for what?

Drink Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the "choosing".

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?

Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?

If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’.

But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

:>)

Love,

Nobody!

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Please let me know if I'm still not doing the quoting and answering part in a way that is easy for you. OK, here we go!

You looked into a box and the box was empty.

Look again.

Is it still empty?

What is there?

Are Thoughts there?

Do they arise from there…

…or from someplace else?

Are body sensations (Touch / “Touchings”) there? Do they arise from there?

Is it still empty?
Yes, the box is still empty

What is there?
The more I look, it seems like it's not exactly empty. Maybe it's best described as full of nothing. But the next answer seems to contradict that. But they do both seem true.

Are Thoughts there?
It DOES seem like thoughts are there, as if they bubble up from within in

Are body sensations (Touch / “Touchings”) there? Do they arise from there?
This is strange. The box is empty, but the touching, seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting seem to be there, bubbling up within it like the thoughts are bubbling up within it. So it's empty and at the same time, not. But at the same time there's a real pull to place the experience AT THE POINT of whatever sense organ is felt to be doing the experiencing… but then when I look, it's not at that point… it's in the emptiness. That is very surprising.

Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions?

Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

Can you find anywhere where the stream autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

Does it choose any of its directions?
No, the stream does not choose any of it's directions.

Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc?
Despite the mind arguing that it must be, because it's STREAM, which is different than ROCKS, which is different than TREE bow… I see that it isn't. If there are no labels, then what is there to separate it from anything. It's all just here.

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
Well, if it's not really an "entity" in the first place, then it can't be entity moment by moment either. But, in the spirit of your question: no, it's not the same entity moment by moment either. It's the expression of everything in that moment: weather conditions, water, etc. Ever-changing pattern… yeah…

Can you find anywhere where the stream autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow.
Wow. No, there is no place where the stream intervenes into life that somehow acting outside of the overall flow and pattern of things.

Decisions, Decisions! ;>)
Now please pick a few regular decisions to make, and then make them.

For example, choose something to wear or take off, something to eat, to sit, stand, or go into another room...these can be anything.

Please note what each of these are, and describe what happens.

Of course, there are environmental factors, there are color / taste preferences practical issues (such as what is available, time needed for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for "that person"!) etc., but:

Where do any of those things come from?

Do you find any autonomous, separate entity -- a "you" intervening anywhere?

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening anywhere in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

Can anything be found for which "D" is responsible?

If so, responsible to what and for what?

Deciding to get up and go the bathroom
The decision just bubbled up out of nowhere. There was no autonomous, separate entity doing anything. It was just all what happened. There was no autonomous entity intervening… it was all just flowing stuff. I can't find someone. No, nothing can be found which "D" is responsible. Whoa. I have to sit with that for a minute. I'll be back.

Deciding to have a some yogurt and raspberries
The decision came from life. That's not even right to say. It just flowed from the moment. Even more accurately: it is just what happened. There was no autonomous "me" making something happen. There's no autonomous entity intervening at all, anywhere. There's still no one here. No "D" responsible for anything.

Deciding to go outside and check the mailbox
The decision to do it, and the doing of it, came from nowhere. No one did it. No one intervened to make anything happen. There's no one to be found… so no one to be responsible. If someone IS responsible, it isn't ME ;)

Jeff, this is strange, because if you read those words it sounds like I'm "getting" something or "understanding" something… but it doesn't FEEL like that's what's happening. What it FEELS like is that there's engagement in the exercises, the questions are being answered as honestly and directly as possible, and so in that way these responses really DO describe the experience of what's happening. But I'd be hoodwinking you if I said I really BELIEVED all the responses being typed here… LOL… even though they truly are the experience that's happening and there's 100% honesty in the responses… "I" still don't get how the responses could be true! Even though it's obvious they are! LOL. That is so funny. That seems really funny to me right now. I have no idea if you know what I mean by this, but it doesn't really matter ;) This is fun. Let's do more…

Questions
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the "choosing".

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?

Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?

If so, what does this function look like?

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
I didn't choose the qualities for evaluation.

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
They just appeared by themselves.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?
Like the qualities, I didn't choose preferences

Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They seemed to just appear.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
I definitely did not choose the numbers coming to the front and the preferences to the back. It was just an automatic thing… so much so that I hadn't realized it happened until you asked about it. The plane was flying itself.

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
I for sure did not choose to shut down the preferences to make way for the counting. I did not experience a mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'.

Have you seen this function in action?
It turns out that I have not seen this function in action. It's just been assumed. Huh.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
I did not witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the choosing. It really just happened.

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?
There was a wisp of something bubbling up trying to take credit for choosing. It was subtle, but it was there. Still is.

If so, what does this function look like?
It looks a lot like a thought. It IS a thought. I recognize it's compelling nature along with the fact that it just popped up out of nowhere. Probably a thought doesn't actually have a "compelling nature" though. But we're not here to speculate, are we ;)

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’.

But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

It "feels" like a non-sensical question ;) But to answer it, I would say no… you wouldn't think a feeling could do much more than arise and be felt by something.

Thanks so much for this Jeff. These questions and exercises and your words are the right thing at the right time :)

Again, please let me know if I'm doing the quoting thing as you'd prefer. Hopefully I got it right this time but, if I didn't, it wasn't me, it was the babbling brook in the mountains ;)

D

[jefe2060]

3/21

Ok so after all that, I confirm I hadn't actually posted this. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Here ya go.


---

Hiya D, thanks for the gift of your post, and for all of them. Very joyous for me. Sorry, don't want to influence your experience (not true 🤣!!!!!).

Please let me know if I'm still not doing the quoting and answering part in a way that is easy for you.

Thx for the efforts! It's pretty good. Better would be if you separated the description of the exercise from the individual questions followed by your (alternating) individual answers, the next question, etc. Please do it that way if you don't mind. 😁

"You looked into a box and the box was empty. Look again. Is it still empty?"

D: Yes, the box is still empty

"What is there?"

The more I look, it seems like it's not exactly empty. Maybe it's best described as full of nothing. But the next answer seems to contradict that. But they do both seem true.

"Describe the “nothing” in terms of direct experience, that is to say direct experience of any SENSE OBJECTS (ie, the color of the skin of whatever an apple actually is without a label 🤣, in other words an object of SEEING), a thought (or image in the mind's “eye”) about an apple = an object of THINKING, etc."

"Are Thoughts there?"

It DOES seem like thoughts are there, as if they bubble up from within in

Look closely. Are the thoughts “already” there, or do they “bubble up” (arise) from “there”?

While we're on the subject, look closely: where exactly is “there”?


"Are body sensations (Touch / “Touchings”) there? Do they arise from there?"

This is strange. The box is empty, but the touching, seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting seem to be there, bubbling up within it like the thoughts are bubbling up within it. So it's empty and at the same time, not.

AGAIN: Look closely.

Sit quietly.

Take your time.

In between looking and seeing / not seeing and answering, please allow plenty of time and space and slowness.

Slow all this down so you aren't stepping over anything because it's all happening at a s l o w pace.

Firstly, it's wise, if possible (popsicle? 🤦🏻‍♂️ Brain Freeze!! 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️), to discard the “box” thing.

If you can also dispense with saying things like “seems to be” and instead be precise: what OBJECTIVELY are you talking about when you are talking about anything? See my asterisks “ ** ” below!

You are either talking about NOTHING or SOMETHING OBJECTIVE, like empty space with a fly (flying in it) or an asteroid floating around in it or a song playing in it (if that was possible). Please only describe what is actually there in OBJECTIVE experience: either SOMETHING OR NOTHING.


Try to find the borders, size, shape, texture, color, or any other OBJECTIVE quality of what you have been calling the “box”.

Can you find any?

What are they?

BE SPECIFIC!

(Asterisks “ ** “coming!!)

But at the same time there's a real pull…**

**This is what I meant by “be precise”. If you are talking about something, it's either SOMETHING (objective) or NOTHING.

PLEASE ACTUALLY LOOK CLOSE ENOUGH TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE AND REPORT.

to place the experience AT THE POINT of whatever sense organ is felt to be doing the experiencing… but then when I look, it's not at that point… it's in the emptiness. That is very surprising.

Whatever you meant by all that, good!! 🤣

Look back at your “Stream Exercise”.

Is the metaphor / analogy (? I dunno the right word) of the stream applicable to your “self” inquiry? How?


For “Decisions, Decisions!”, I'm just pasting it all here for you to read again.

Read it more than once.

Or twice.

Or three times.

Deciding to get up and go the bathroom
The decision just bubbled up out of nowhere. There was no autonomous, separate entity doing anything. It was just all what happened. There was no autonomous entity intervening… it was all just flowing stuff. I can't find someone. No, nothing can be found which "D" is responsible. Whoa. I have to sit with that for a minute. I'll be back.

Deciding to have a some yogurt and raspberries
The decision came from life. That's not even right to say. It just flowed from the moment. Even more accurately: it is just what happened. There was no autonomous "me" making something happen. There's no autonomous entity intervening at all, anywhere. There's still no one here. No "D" responsible for anything.

Deciding to go outside and check the mailbox
The decision to do it, and the doing of it, came from nowhere. No one did it. No one intervened to make anything happen. There's no one to be found… so no one to be responsible. If someone IS responsible, it isn't ME ;)”


Jeff, this is strange, because if you read those words it sounds like I'm "getting" something or "understanding" something… but it doesn't FEEL like that's what's happening.

Please describe what you mean by “FEEL” precisely, as I've asked you to do earlier / above.

You are either talking about SOMETHING OBJECTIVE OR YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOTHING.

YOU ARE EITHER HOLDING A ROCK IN YOUR HAND OR YOU AREN'T.

YOUR SOCKS ARE WHATEVER COLOR THEY ARE OR YOU AREN'T WEARING ANY.

SORRY, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

What it FEELS like is that there's engagement in the exercises, the questions are being answered as honestly and directly as possible, and so in that way these responses really DO describe the experience of what's happening. But I'd be hoodwinking you if I said I really BELIEVED all the responses being typed here

If I told you I believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or that Superman was real, REALLY believed, like, I didn't even just believe it, I LIVED AS IF IT WAS ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT IT WAS, and you saw that that was my truth, what would you know about me for certain?

In other words, in terms of life and death issues, like, heads you win (and don't get dropped into the ocean in a cement overcoat) tails you lose (“splash! Blub, blub, blub!!!”) who the f**k gives a rats @$$ what you, me or anyone believes?

(ie, please look at my pointer and your use of the word "believed" in your quoted response above and comment on it's relevance to reality):

… LOL… even though they truly are the experience that's happening and there's 100% honesty in the responses… "I" still don't get how the responses could be true!

So. What.

Even though it's obvious they are! LOL. That is so funny. That seems really funny to me right now. I have no idea if you know what I mean by this...

I. Know. What. You. Mean.


Again, I'm just copy pasting (below) for your perusal and contemplation.


"In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?"

I didn't choose the qualities for evaluation.

"Or did they kind of appear by themselves?"

They just appeared by themselves.

"If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?"

Like the qualities, I didn't choose preferences

"Or did they just pop up by themselves?"

They seemed to just appear.

"In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of events?"

I definitely did not choose the numbers coming to the front and the preferences to the back. It was just an automatic thing… so much so that I hadn't realized it happened until you asked about it. The plane was flying itself.

"Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?"

I for sure did not choose to shut down the preferences to make way for the counting. I did not experience a mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'.

"Have you seen this function in action?"

It turns out that I have not seen this function in action. It's just been assumed. Huh.

And, I ought to have seized on this from last time:

"If thoughts aren't ME and emotions aren't ME, then what am I?".

Maybe the best question you've asked so far!

But that, as you said, was just more shouting and handwaving because I already know the box is empty. I just don't KNOW it.”

You looked [into a box and the box] was empty.

You looked for your “self” and there wasn't one.

Look again.

What do you find?

"If thoughts aren't ME and emotions aren't ME, then what am I?. But that, as you said, was just more shouting and handwaving because I already know the box is empty. I just don't KNOW it.”

If that...

…was just more shouting and handwaving

…then what is this:

“because I already know the box is empty. I just don't KNOW it”????

Doncha love it when someone rubs your nose in your pile of horse$# - - circular reasoning?


😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

-J

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for this. I'm glad we're back on track! You sure didn't pull any punches... this is getting REAL ;) Nobody told me it was going to be like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D3Iwx1cciA

🤣

I just wanted to let you know that I saw this and that I am going to take some time with it as you suggested. So this quick response is all there is for today.

See you tomorrow!
D

[jefe2060]

Take your time! Really.

[Enzymatic]

"Are Thoughts there?"

It DOES seem like thoughts are there, as if they bubble up from within in
Look closely. Are the thoughts “already” there, or do they “bubble up” (arise) from “there”?

Look closely. Are the thoughts “already” there, or do they “bubble up” (arise) from “there”?

They're not already there. they arise from there. In order to be precise, it should be said that the concepts "bubbling up" or "arising" come from a visual image in the mind's eye. What's actually happening is that a thought appears. There's nothing, then a thought appears "within" it.

While we're on the subject, look closely: where exactly is “there”?

"There" is here, this, everywhere

Try to find the borders, size, shape, texture, color, or any other OBJECTIVE quality of what you have been calling the “box”.

Can you find any?

No. "The box" has no objective qualities. "I" am without OBJECTIVE qualities.

What are they?

There are none

(Asterisks “ ** “coming!!)
But at the same time there's a real pull…**

**This is what I meant by “be precise”. If you are talking about something, it's either SOMETHING (objective) or NOTHING.

PLEASE ACTUALLY LOOK CLOSE ENOUGH TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE AND REPORT.

If I don't $&%# around, then this has to be true: "I" has no objective qualities, therefore "I" am not "something".

Look back at your “Stream Exercise”.

Is the metaphor / analogy (? I dunno the right word) of the stream applicable to your “self” inquiry? How?

Yes, the metanalogy ;) is applicable to this "self" inquiry. "I" is a label, just as "STREAM" is a label. Like the stream, I am not a separate thing, different from anything else here... ever-changing, not intervening, not choosing, nothing other than the flow of everything.

Jeff, this is strange, because if you read those words it sounds like I'm "getting" something or "understanding" something… but it doesn't FEEL like that's what's happening.

Please describe what you mean by “FEEL” precisely, as I've asked you to do earlier / above.

"FEEL" was an imprecise way of describing the content of a thought. What I might have more precisely said was, "it sounds like I'm "getting" something or "understanding" something… AND THERE'S ALSO A THOUGHT APPEARING THAT I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING IT." But when it gets typed out here in that new, more precise way, it's irrelevance becomes obvious. It's a story about story.

What it FEELS like is that there's engagement in the exercises, the questions are being answered as honestly and directly as possible, and so in that way these responses really DO describe the experience of what's happening. But I'd be hoodwinking you if I said I really BELIEVED all the responses being typed here

If I told you I believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or that Superman was real, REALLY believed, like, I didn't even just believe it, I LIVED AS IF IT WAS ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT IT WAS, and you saw that that was my truth, what would you know about me for certain?

In other words, in terms of life and death issues, like, heads you win (and don't get dropped into the ocean in a cement overcoat) tails you lose (“splash! Blub, blub, blub!!!”) who the f**k gives a rats @$$ what you, me or anyone believes?

(ie, please look at my pointer and your use of the word "believed" in your quoted response above and comment on it's relevance to reality):

If I told you I believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or that Superman was real, REALLY believed, like, I didn't even just believe it, I LIVED AS IF IT WAS ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT IT WAS, and you saw that that was my truth, what would you know about me for certain?

Nothing

(please look at my pointer and your use of the word "believed" in your quoted response above and comment on it's relevance to reality):

It's obvious now of course that beliefs have no relevance to reality. Can't put it any more simply than that!

You looked [into a box and the box] was empty.

You looked for your “self” and there wasn't one.

Look again.

What do you find?

Nothing. No thing.

Doncha love it when someone rubs your nose in your pile of horse$# - - circular reasoning?

If you don't do it, who's going to! 🤣

Jeff, there's SO much gratitude here for your direct and challenging responses and for all the time you're spending doing it.

D