Direct pointing

[Canfora]

Hi Rob,

I read a quote from someone who said "self can't get out of self" which resonated with what I have been doing.

Maybe a quote from Paul Hedderman? I really like him.

This sounds straight forward, I understand that simple doesn't mean easy.

Yes!

After a lifetime of the usual human suffering I noticed that the suffering was being created by the mind so started looking into this through countless hours of reading books, searching the internet and watching YouTube videos. Self inquiry was what many people said is the most successful path so I have been trying to do this without guidance which has led me here.
When I look for a self I try to look for the self that gets frustrated, defensive, triggered etc...
I have been trying to look for the self in the frustration, defensiveness, triggering and the mind with the mind.

Thank you for this answer. It seems to me that, like most people, you haven't been using the right "tool". Or that you have been looking to the wrong place. I'll try to explain what I mean. If you have doubts about what I'm saying let me know.

The goal is to SEE here and now if there is a self present here/now.
A solid, independent, permanent thing that is a self.

A real self.

Looking for a self isn't thinking about a self.

This is like looking for your house keys.

You use the eyes, the senses, to look for the house keys.

You know where they are when you find them present in the here/now.

No need to think to know when you find them.

You see them and you know that they are here.

With this inquiry about the existance of a real thing that is a separate self it's the same.

When a thought is about the self you have a look and see if the thought is accurate.

Where do you look? You look to what is present here now, just as it is.

If a self is real you have to be capable to see it, smell it, touch it, hear it and even taste it.

If a self is real it has to be as present as your computer screen.

Have a look. Use the eyes, see what is here. There are objects around you. You can see this and that and other. Can you also see a self?

Sit and spend some time just looking around.

What can you find that is a self? Any-thing? Describe, as best as you can what happens.

Let me know how this goes.

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra,
I

read a quote from someone who said "self can't get out of self" which resonated with what I have been doing.
Maybe a quote from Paul Hedderman? I really like him.

You got it 😁, I really like him also.

Sit and spend some time just looking around.

What can you find that is a self? Any-thing? Describe, as best as you can what happens.

Ok, so I am sitting on a sofa in a room at home.
I can hear traffic, people walking by talking.
I can see objects like TV, window, walls, table, cat, computer screen, "MY" feet, legs, hands, clothes.
These objects have colour, shapes and appear to be different distances from "ME"
I can see my fingers and hands move as I type this message, my fingers and hands are moving in response to the description of what is described in my mind about what is observed. Like I am telling a story in my mind about what I can see
I can't see a self anywhere.
My body, fingers, hands and clothes feel more personal and separate from the other objects in view, I'm not sure if more personal is an accurate description but definitely separate.
It feels really quite difficult to describe in detail what is seen as things seem less familiar when I really look, there is a feeling of frustration at the difficulty to describe what has always been taken for granted. When I try to really look at the objects, colours and shapes it becomes more difficult to put into words.
There is sensation of my feet on the floor, my clothes on my skin, my chest rising and falling with each breath, the ambient temperature but each of these sensations is only noticed when attention is placed on them, the breath seems to be noticed more regularly like it steals my attention.
I can't find a self in any of the seeing, hearing or sensations but there is a strong sense of me is sensation, especially the breath.

I hope this is the looking that I am meant to do, it is surprising how I begin to feel a little confused when trying to look and describe what I see.

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob!

It feels really quite difficult to describe in detail what is seen as things seem less familiar when I really look, there is a feeling of frustration at the difficulty to describe what has always been taken for granted.

It's fine! Whe aren't trying to go into deep descriptions. Or into a very focused state of looking. This is just looking and seeing what is here. You already know how to see if something is here. It may take a while to realize what I'm pointing to but you will get it.

I hope this is the looking that I am meant to do, it is surprising how I begin to feel a little confused when trying to look and describe what I see.

Look again. See what is present.
Do you see a self? Is a self somewhere? A real thing that is a self.
Just look.
You can look and answer with a yes, or a no, or a maybe. It's as simple as that. Can you see a separate self?

Let me know how this goes.

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra,

When I look for a self with any of the five senses a self cannot be found.
What I consider a self to be is a sense that has no physical properties, a self is a sense of identity that can be defensive, judgemental, triggered, overwhelmed, afraid etc. It seems that a self is a protective feeling that does it's own thing.
I can't see a self anywhere, when having an interaction with another person a self can be sensed in the other person.
I cannot find a self anywhere that I can touch, smell, hear, SEE or taste.
It is not possible to SEE a self.
My mind struggles with trying to provide an answer when I am not wanting the mind to get involved, it's funny how that happens.

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob and thank you for your reply.

What I consider a self to be is a sense that has no physical properties, a self is a sense of identity that can be defensive, judgemental, triggered, overwhelmed, afraid etc. It seems that a self is a protective feeling that does it's own thing.

It seems to me that you are saying you can find a self and this self is a sense, a feeling?
Where would you say this self is located?

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra and thanks for your reply,

When I look for a self it is a sense/ feeling.
When I look for a self there is the five senses with thoughts and memories, likes and dislikes, resistance and grasping to thoughts and feelings, if I find something unpleasant there is tightness in the chest and phycological tension, if I choose to move my hand in a direction the hand moves where I intend giving a sense of control.
When I look closely at choosing to move my hand it is more of a subtle urge, there doesn't seem to be a thought that triggers the urge or maybe the thought is so subtle and quick that I miss it.
There is noticing of all of this that gives the sense of there being a self at the centre of this whole system, there are lots of moments that the sense of a self is absent but it is overlooked.
The more closely I look at any of these things there is no real self but the looking gives a sense of a looker, the looking is triggered by a thought that is not a self. The thought to look is triggered by another thought that comes from curiosity which is like the subtle urge to move my hand.
This whole system that gives a sense of a self is so quick that it is overlooked.
I can't see or find an entity that is a self.

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob,

Are you describing what is going on now or are you telling me a story about what you think happens?

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra 😊

Are you describing what is going on now or are you telling me a story about what you think happens?

It seems I am definitely telling a story about what I think is going on!! I realised some time ago that everything I think I know is either a label or a concept so not real!!
I have not been looking as I should.
When I look for a self in the here/now I can't find a self.
There is seeing, hearing etc but no self that controls any of this that I can find.

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob,

Thank you for your honesty. I was a little afraid you would get defensive. It's just that that answer seemed very conceptual to me. Glad you're still here :)

There is seeing, hearing etc but no self that controls any of this that I can find.

Does that mean the body isn't a self?
And that there isn't a self inside the body?

If possible let me know how do you justify your answers to those 2 questions. How do you know one way or the other?

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra,

Thank you for your honesty. I was a little afraid you would get defensive. It's just that that answer seemed very conceptual to me. Glad you're still here :)

I did get a little defensive but a smile very quickly appeared when I realised what I had done, using concepts 😊.

Does that mean the body isn't a self?

The body isn't a self. The body can be seen and touched, it can be seen as clearly as the screen Infront of me.
The body can be seen and felt as sensations and as a visual perception.

And that there isn't a self inside the body?

When I look in direct experience, I cannot find a self in the body.
There are sensations present, like pressure, movement, and breath, and sometimes a sense that feels like a centre, but when I look closely, these are just sensations.
I cannot find anything in the body that is an entity, a controller, or a self. There is nothing that can be located as “me,” only sensations and perceptions.
So based on direct looking, there does not appear to be a self in the body.

( I must add, there seems to be a ME label added to all of this automatically). Conceptual I know :(

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob,

So based on direct looking, there does not appear to be a self in the body.

If there isn't a self in the body how could a self be real? This is more an observation than a question.

( I must add, there seems to be a ME label added to all of this automatically). Conceptual I know :(

I wouldn't say that's conceptual. It's kinda accurate. A label ME is added to everything automatically. Almost everything seems to be personal. Don't worry about getting conceptual. I'm not expecting you to stop sharing thoughts about this. If you don't share your thinking I can't know where you are stuck. So think away :)

I don't see anything unclear in your answers about the body, so I would like you to read this article from Ilona and do the exercise that is in there: https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Let me know how it goes.

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra,
I did the exercise and noticed a considerable difference between part 1 and part 2, a brief list of observations is below.

Part 1...
I am lying on my bed
I am using a pen to write my experience
I am looking at the pen and the words
I can hear a car
I can hear the voice in my head read the words as I write them
I notice that I is a word
I notice that by the time I write I am writing about a past
I notice it's warm
I notice that I am becoming more present
I notice a quiet constant buzzing in my ears
I feel the sensations of my body more
I notice objects in my peripheral vision more

Summary...
I could very much notice that I was not describing direct experience until I noticed I was writing about a past experience, when I noticed this I became more present. My body felt quite relaxed and breathing felt calm.

Part 2...
Noticing of writing is happening
Thoughts happening
Noise from car driving past is noticed
It is noticed that more subtle noises are heard but much less internal description is happening
There is much less thoughts happening
There is mild confusion noticed
From noticing direct experience to there being a description there is a gap that is much longer
Noticing of a very quiet mind
Doubt is sensed but without the internal voice saying so
There is noticing of lots of subtle noises outside but the mind is very quiet and labelling tries but doesn't get momentum

Summary...
Early in the experiment it felt like I had forgotten what I was meant to be doing although all of the things in the list above were written without the internal voice helping. Doubt was sensed that I wasn't describing direct experience and the internal voice went very quiet, it's been 30 minutes since the experiment was completed and the mind is very silent. There is doubt that I completed part 2 as I should of done using direct experience.
My mind feels just like it did when I did a direct pointing session with Trina Dawn!!

Thanks
Rob

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra,

I thought I would give an update after sleeping.
Looking back at part 2 of the exercise yesterday it seemed like I became confused early on with what I was meant to do and the internal narrator of experience dropped away just like with the no-mind state I had experienced before. For the rest of the evening I watched TV and chatted with my partner with my mind being very quiet, I did feel a little disorientated.
I have woken up this morning and the mind is back to it's normal state.

Thanks
Rob

[Canfora]

Hi Rob and thank you for doing the exercise and for your 2 replies. Love the way you go for it.

Were you able to see how using a subject in language seems to create the illusion that such a subject is real?

When you dropped the pronom I did the description seem to be more in lign with what was being experienced?

Does using the word I mean there is a real self?

Take care,
S

[Roberto]

Hi Sandra 😊

Yes, it became quite clear that using a subject in language (like “I”) gives the impression that there is someone doing or experiencing things. When written that way, it feels as though there is a centre or owner of what’s happening.

When the pronoun was dropped, description felt closer to what was actually happening. There was just noticing, sounds, sensations, and thoughts appearing, without a clear sense of someone behind them. It also felt quieter and more immediate, although at times there was confusion and less ability to describe.

Looking at it now, using the word “I” doesn’t seem to prove that there is a real self, it just seems to be a habit in language that suggests one. In direct experience, there isn’t anything that can be found that corresponds to that “I”, only sensations, thoughts, and perceptions appearing.

There is still some doubt arising about whether this is being seen clearly or just thought about, but it is noticed that the doubt itself is also just another appearance.

I also repeated the exercise again yesterday. This time the experience was quite different. There were many thoughts arising and also resistance to those thoughts. An intention to approach it with curiosity and openness was present, but it felt more busy and less clear than before. It is noticed that there was an expectation of the previous “quiet” experience, and perhaps some frustration when that didn’t happen.

Thanks
Rob