The Gate


Hey Jeff, 

Thanks for making me do drills, of course i've seen these a bunch of times already but having to do them as homework gets me out of my ego a bit.

the movement of limbs appears, note, seems, to be both one of semi voluntary action and of total involuntary, complete no control / automatic / just happens.
I can’t say “i have control, nor I don’t have control”, in fact there was an opening just by dropping the language of I and thus no haver of control. Just action that seems simultaneously “directable” and “just happening.” How it works, I have no fken idea, but it seems to. I’ll fight on this one: there’s lot of people that say “you have no control,” but by god I can usually make my fingers open and close at will. been looking at it for hours off and on.

Effort, intention, and will were somewhat seen through a bit, will let you know on that if it comes up as important later. 
Still open question of “can thoughts or thought itself control” - maybe in the same way that vision changes or “controls” what happens in experience but you wouldn’t necessarily talk about that. 

There’s also the question of “what is action, except some combination of the senses” into an appearance. I think that’s fairly close to true for me right now. like, I we did this already as a drill, but noticing that opening your hand was actually like seeing hand movement, some touching changes, and thought. 

The controller one got me stumped though. there seems to be maybe an idea of a controller in thought, call me hesitant to agree to or admit that fully though. Can’t find a whole lot, still lots of Me’s and I’s going around in the head though in a in a way that always seems convincing or accurate when it’s happening.

Decisions are mostly seen through I think, will need to interact with more life to get through that one. 



Please tell me which attempts, and what opened up.

You did ask what opened things up in the previous exercise. The first two times I tried it, I uncovered the fear of letting thought hit me and be recognized as such, and when I finally did, I realized a lot more when thinking was happening compulsively or as misinterpretation. Not perfect, but better. That was a big deal to me, because I’d gotten so good at recognizing thought after the fact, but never before or actively. When that started to happen, allowing other sensations to happen to me without interference or getting pulled completely by thought came as well. But I can’t say i’m like “seeing” or “present” in some new way. I sitll think all the time and life looks stupid normal.

3/17

Hey Jeff, 

Thanks for making me do drills, of course i've seen these a bunch of times already but having to do them as homework gets me out of my ego a bit.

ok....

Before we get started...

Please do not use connected narrative (as below) to describe individual questions. As you will see, there are instructions for exercises we will do today that ask you to format your answers to the specific questions asked. The "page" you are on isn't the "page" you are looking for, and you can't get "here" from "there".

“You can’t get a straight answer from a twisted mind!”

- Anonymous

🤣


Your way:

“the movement of limbs appears, note, seems, to be both one of semi voluntary action and of total involuntary, complete no control / automatic / just happens. I can’t say “i have control, nor I don’t have control”, in fact there was an opening just by dropping the language of I and thus no haver of control. Just action that seems simultaneously “directable” and “just happening.” How it works, I have no fken idea, but it seems to. I’ll fight on this one: there’s lot of people that say “you have no control,” but by god I can usually make my fingers open and close at will. been looking at it for hours off and on.”

"Effort, intention, and will were somewhat seen through a bit, will let you know on that if it comes up as important later. 
Still open question of “can thoughts or thought itself control” - maybe in the same way that vision changes or “controls” what happens in experience but you wouldn’t necessarily talk about that. 

There’s also the question of “what is action, except some combination of the senses” into an appearance. I think that’s fairly close to true for me right now. like, I we did this already as a drill, but noticing that opening your hand was actually like seeing hand movement, some touching changes, and thought. 

The controller one got me stumped though. there seems to be maybe an idea of a controller in thought, call me hesitant to agree to or admit that fully though. Can’t find a whole lot, still lots of Me’s and I’s going around in the head though in a in a way that always seems convincing or accurate when it’s happening."

Narrative is fine in response to narrative questions. Please let me know if you understand the distinction. If you respond to a list of questions in narrative form, I have to decipher BOTH your format AND your answers. I'm not that kinda genius.

I'm fairly sure when we started I asked you to quote my questions in your answers too. If not, I'm sorry! But please do that.

;>)


EXERCISE 1
Ego–huh?

You are going to describe “ego” in terms of direct experience.

Look NOW - not into memory. In other words, look at your present moment experience and describe that.

(Strictly speaking, you are going to use memory AND direct experience to do the exercise. Of course, since there will be a small gap between your DE and your reporting of it, you will be relying on memory to do so. Until we both learn to communicate mind to mind, instantaneously, without the internet (it's fast, but we still need to read, think, type, format, preview, and hit “send” 🤣 , this is the best we can do)

Please do not explain what or why you think anything is working or happening in any terms other than the format provided categorizing “Ego” in terms of sense experiences.

HINT: there are no other categories in which experience can be known.

Here's your mail-order refresher course in DE:

Seeing
Smelling
Tasting
Hearing
Touching
Thinking (the activity, NOT the content!)

To reiterate: there are no other categories in which experience can be known.

Cha-ching!


Here’s two sides of a magic coin you are going to toss to get “Ego” to crank:

Sit quietly, relax for a few moments, and then bring to mind someone you love/loved, like/liked, were/are attracted to, enamored with, have/had a crush on, flirted with, etc. This can be an actual person or even someone you just would like to cast in that role. Imagine the person is with you now, reading over your shoulder, sitting right next to you, or standing facing you directly.

Then, either reminisce about, or imagine (same thing, really) your attention, feelings, interest, desire, etc., in/for the person being...

1. HEADS
Returned / Reciprocated

Notice how “Ego” responds, and describe it in terms of Direct Experience.

Please use the exact format below for your answers. Copy paste, don’t re-write in your own style.
ONLY respond in terms of the existence / non-existence of “Ego” NOW, in regards to the exercises’ prompts to cause “it” to show “itself”.


Response Format

Where is “Ego” Seen?

What does “Ego” smell like?

How does “Ego” taste?

What does “Ego” sound like?

What body sensations (touching) does “Ego” have?

How does “Ego” arise in thought?


Conclusion
What and where is “Ego” known NOW (in relationship to this exercise) in Direct Experience?



TAILS
Rejected / Ignored

Notice how “Ego” responds, and describe it in terms of Direct Experience.

Please use the exact format below for your answers. Copy paste, don’t re-write in your own style.
ONLY respond in terms of the existence / non-existence of “Ego” NOW, in regards to the exercises’ prompts to cause “it” to show “itself”.


Response Format

Where is “Ego” Seen?

What does “Ego” smell like?

How does “Ego” taste?

What does “Ego” sound like?

What body sensations (touching) does “Ego” have?

How does “Ego” arise in thought?


Conclusion
What and where is “Ego” known NOW (in relationship to this exercise) in Direct Experience?


In light of your answer to the previous question, how do you make sense of your statement:

Thanks for making me do drills, of course i've seen these a bunch of times already but having to do them as homework gets me out of my ego a bit.

"i've"?

Who, where, or what is the "I" to which you are referring above?

"me"?

Who, where, or what is the "me" to which you are referring above?

"ego"?

Who, where, or what is the "ego" to which you are referring above?



EXERCISE 2 (& 3)
Please redo both Palm Flipping and Raising Hands.

• Again, please copy / paste the format I am providing you with.
  DO NOT re-write either the exercise or your answers to the questions posed in ANY OTHER FORMAT.
  
  I repeat.
  Do. Not. Use. Your. Way of writing things / your interpretation of the exercise to do this work.

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Examine your direct experience.

DE is ONLY:

SEEING
HEARING
TASTING
TOUCHING
SMELLING
THINKING (the activity, NOT the content!)

Do this as many times as you like.
COPY / PASTE the format provided (the questions below) each time, and inquire, looking back at the list of DE possibilities each time you answer each question:

How is the movement controlled?

Which category of DE is involved?

Can a smell, sight, touch, sound, taste, or thought make anything happen?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought - or anything else - MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand - for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

What category of DE is involved? Can a smell, sight, touch, sound, taste, or thought make anything happen?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

How is the decision made?



Love,

Jeff

Sorry, to clarify from my previous post:

Please do not use connected narrative (as below) to describe individual questions. As you will see, there are instructions for exercises we will do today that ask you to format your answers to the specific questions asked. The "page" you are on isn't the "page" you are looking for, and you can't get "here" from "there".

I meant "...to answer individual questions."

Yes?

-J

HI Jeff,

Please let me know if you understand the distinction

I think I understand the distinction

Reciprocated:

Where is “Ego” Seen?

No where

What does “Ego” smell like?

Nothing

How does “Ego” taste?

Nothing

What does “Ego” sound like?

Nothing

What body sensations (touching) does “Ego” have?

Nothing

How does “Ego” arise in thought?

It's imaginary. I guess it is thought. I was really using it to describe "egotistical traits", like thinking I know better than the guides in directing self-improvement. I don't believe in "seeing through or killing the ego". There's no real ego.

However, because I think you're more pointing to the separate I or me, that I do kinda believe in blindly, rather than how I typically use ego, here's a slight modification from ego to I in your exercise. I'll redo if absolutely necessary, but it seems pointless to discuss ego further.

Rejected

Where is “i” Seen?

I don't see anything that's not like internal mental imagery, so those are likely thoughts

What does “i” smell like?

I can't smell anything related I don't think, really hard to discern

How does “i” taste?

No taste

What does “i” sound like?

Lots of voices, but is that not just thought? Not sure

What body sensations (touching) does “i” have?

I don't think there's any body sensations.

How does “i” arise in thought?

I notice that in order to conjure an I right now, I essentially have to imagine it in thought. Equally, when I think there's a real I, and I flip back to sensory components, it seems like what I thought was really seeing or touching was also just imaginary.
Don't ask me how "I think there's no real I or I imagine it": it seems likely that's all thought too, still working on that see below.

What and where is “Ego” known NOW (in relationship to this exercise) in Direct Experience?

Just in imagination. Basically self dishonesty that it's not just thoughts.

In light of your answer to the previous question, how do you make sense of your statement:
Thanks for making me do drills, of course i've seen these a bunch of times already but having to do them as homework gets me out of my ego a bit.

Once again, read as "you cut some of the intellectual, lone wolf identity bs, thank you".

Who, where, or what is the "I" to which you are referring above?

I imagine it's all imaginary, gross. Thoughts about thoughts. Hard to know. There's lots of mental visual and audio imagery that's a bit confusing, but the suggestion of a true essence behind that seems to be like Santa claus

Who, where, or what is the "me" to which you are referring above?

Same thing. When I go from sensation back to me, the thinking has to kick back in unfortunately.

Who, where, or what is the "ego" to which you are referring above?

This one should be good by now.



Palm flipping

How is the movement controlled?

It seems to just happen and thoughts imagine points of intention or doing

Which category of DE is involved?

It's only thinking huh, by it i mean the illusion. I have fool myself into thinking that it's not just thoughts in order to think there's control. Like you could imagine a mechanism of control and then there's control, *but without letting those thoughts be valid there's nothing.*

Can a smell, sight, touch, sound, taste, or thought make anything happen?

I don't think so that seems absurd especially on the main 5 senses.
I don't think thought can, there's a noticable desync between a thought of stop or turn and the actual movement, which is perceived by the other senses.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I don't think so? By this point it's more of an idea of a controller I'm looking for so of course I can't find.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Best I can tell decisions are just made. They come pre decided. Instant. Often the comes at the moment of movement.

Track any decision point when a thought - or anything else - MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

It seems like there are lots of "decision made" thoughts, but those don't clearly correlate with movement

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand - for the exercise?

I don't remember choosing. Thoughts after the fact say "it seemed natural, or conditioned" but yeah idk.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Not really I don't think. Outside of thinking, action definitely flows smoothly, painlessly without a clear decision point.



Resting palm exercise

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I don't know. Maybe nothing, maybe a force or conditioning, at first I was like "buzzing of rightness chose" but it's like can buzzing choose? No. And then after that I have no idea.

What category of DE is involved? Can a smell, sight, touch, sound, taste, or thought make anything happen?

No senses that I registered. When I did lift a hand, at first I was like maybe thought chose, but that's not quite it, since it would have only chosen a small fraction of what happened and missed big parts.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

Only an imaginary one or thing

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I don't know. Thoughts say I should be able to know or this is something controlling it, but that's it

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

When it happens, it literally just happens. I can't make it happen, it's not even that "it just happens." I gotta let go of that concept before there's any movement

How is the decision made?

Again I don't know. I can kinda see thoughts framing a decision, even making one, but the moment of real movement does cleanly align. sometimes conditioning seems like the closest answer, like habit, but when I'm really slow and intentional about it, nothing i can pin down that causes the action or makes the real choice.

Please let me know if you understand the distinction

Let me know though if this still is narrative in unwanted places, i am trying, instructions here can be a bit dense, wonkily worded, or confusing honestly.

Thanks though,
Jack

3/17
Hi Jack, thx for posting. Late for me to work up a full reply, back atcha asap.

Me: "Please let me know if you understand the distinction"

You:

Let me know though if this still is narrative in unwanted places, i am trying, instructions here can be a bit dense, wonkily worded, or confusing honestly.

It's much better. I'm sorry for being a purveyor of wonk.

Please let me know if you **EVER** need me to say anything in another way so it's not as confusing. Some of the difficulty may simply be that your internal language / logic / "self" identification doesn't want to be messed with. That would be very understandable. Nobody that doesn't get koans (like me, before I did) gets koans, and they are forever inscrutable.

Because they aren't supposed to be scrutable, nor are they scrutable at all. ;>)

People also speak / understand differently. And this "subject" isn't always the most scrutable thing to begin with. ;>)

It's like an optical illusion that suddenly is seen as totally obvious.

Just to try and offer something of substance, I would suggest that you take a look at the answers from your last post (that are more than one word answers - nothing wrong with those, btw!), and see if you can track the instances where you communicate uncertainty though your answers. It's hard to tell, but it seems either like a habitual, normativ[ed], second-guessing of yourself, actual uncertainty, or just (normal) hedging of bets. We don't like being pinned down.

Gimmee some space, man!

Actually, this isn't a bad thing at all for us look at closely.

Let's formalize it.

Go back over your last post, and copy paste your descriptive answers to the questions posed. Please also include the questions I asked in a way that makes it clear what 1) your answers to the questions were, and 2) your critique / explanation of what I am pointing to (above).

For each relevant answer, please answer the following questions:

What specific uncertainty/uncertainties am I communicating along with my answer?
(please list)
Is my uncertainty in this instance
Habitual / normativ[ed]?
Second-guessing myself?
Actual uncertainty about my answer or the question I am answering?
…just (normal) hedging [my] bets [because I’d rather not be] pinned down?

Good Work (In Advance!!)

Love,

Jeff

Sorry, I hit "POST" before I was done formatting!

Go back over your last post, and copy paste your descriptive answers to the questions posed.

Please also include the questions I asked in a way that makes it clear what
1) your answers to the questions were, and
2) your critique / explanation of what I am pointing to (above).

For each relevant answer, please answer the following questions:

A. What specific uncertainty/uncertainties am I communicating along with my answer?
(please list)

B. Is my uncertainty in this instance...

i. Habitual / normativ[ed]?


ii. Second-guessing myself?


iii. Actual uncertainty about my answer or the question I am answering?


iv. …just (normal) hedging [my] bets [because I’d rather not be] pinned down?


:>)

Hey!

Very strange, posted last night some of what is below but didn't see it when I sat down at the PC this morning! Good thing I follow my own advice and compose offline!

Anyway, thanks for posting!


Me:

"Please let me know if you understand the distinction"

You:

Let me know though if this still is narrative in unwanted places, i am trying, instructions here can be a bit dense, wonkily worded, or confusing honestly.

It's much better. I'm sorry for being a purveyor of wonk. Please let me know if you need me to say anything in another way so it's not as confusing. Some of the difficulty may simply be that your internal language / logic / "self" identification doesn't want to be messed with. That would be very understandable. Nobody that doesn't get koans (like me, before I did) gets koans, and they are forever inscrutable.

Because they aren't supposed to be scrutable, nor are they scrutable at all. ;>)

People also speak / understand differently. And this "subject" isn't always the most scrutable thing to begin with. ;>)

It's like an optical illusion that suddenly is seen as totally obvious.

Just to try and offer something of substance, I would suggest that you take a look at the answers from your last post (that are more than one word answers - nothing wrong with those, btw!), and see if you can track the instances where you communicate uncertainty though your answers. It's hard to tell, but it seems either like a habitual, normativ[ed], second-guessing of yourself, actual uncertainty, or just (normal) hedging of bets. We don't like being pinned down.

Gimmee some space, man!

Actually, this isn't a bad thing at all for us look at closely.

Let's formalize it.

Go back over your last post, and copy paste all your descriptive answers to the questions posed.

Please also include the questions I asked in a way that makes it clear...

1)
what my question is/was


2)
Where my questions end and your answers begin

3)
your critique / explanation of what I am pointing to (above).


For each relevant answer, please answer the following questions:

1
What specific uncertainty/uncertainties am I communicating along with my answer?
(please list)
a.
b.
c.
d.


2
Is my uncertainty in this instance
a.
Habitual / normativ[ed]?

b.
Second-guessing myself?

c.
Actual uncertainty about my answer or the question I am answering?

d.
…just (normal) hedging [my] bets [because I’d rather not be] pinned down?




…

Today:

Hey Jeff, 

Thanks for making me do drills, of course i've seen these a bunch of times already but having to do them as homework gets me out of my ego a bit.

Thanks for clarifying your understanding of “Ego”. I didn’t read your statement closely enough or I would have seen we don’t think of it the same way.

The “normal”, lay definition of ego is as you stated it, sort of like, “She’s an egomaniac!” “Damn, what an ego!”

I did learn what it meant in the terms the concept was by the dude (Freed? Fried? Floyd? Can’t remember 😆) that came up with the whole idea, but let’s get on the same page about it.


From the perspective of the non-dual understanding, “ego” is a conceptual sub-pattern of the “broader” set of thought and associated, reactive body sensations, NOT something separate from the (already “separate”) “self”. When we talk about "ego" / "self" it's the same thing.

As you will see, there is nothing to “self” except the overall conceptual framework of thought and the other sensations, held together by a belief in it’s-elf.

Elves are cute. I like Smurfs, mice elf. ;>)

Let’s see if you can distinguish “Ego” from the rest of the “self” / I / me / mine that you think you are.

I suggest doing so through inquiry using the observation of direct experience.

1.
As a matter of experience, is there any distinction between “ego” and any other “part” of “self”?

2.
Does “ego” use a different set of senses than the “rest” of “self” in order to strut its stuff?

3.
Where is “ego” to be found in direct experience?

4.
Where does it recede to after it’s done putzing, futzing, and fizzing about?



Love,

J


PS: here's a little thingee I cooked up for you: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u1K ... sp=sharing

Ohhh jeez. Talk about "wonky". This system drives me crazy. Now I found the post I sent you last night!

Please respond to the updated version, it's more meaty.

J

Ohhh jeez. Talk about "wonky". This system drives me crazy. Now I found the post I sent you last night!

Please respond to the updated version, it's more meaty.

J

Uncertainty exercise
-How does “Ego” arise in thought?
-It's imaginary. I guess it is thought. I was really using it to describe "egotistical traits", like thinking I know better than the guides in directing self-improvement. I don't believe in "seeing through or killing the ego". There's no real ego.
1. UNCERTAINTY: What specific uncertainty/uncertainties am I communicating along with my answer?
2. Is my uncertainty in this instance Habitual / normativ[ed]? b. Second-guessing myself? c. Actual uncertainty about my answer or the question I am answering? d. just (normal) hedging [my] bets [because I’d rather not be] pinned down?
3. my response: 1. is my interpretation of imaginary or imagination the same as thought. 2. i read it as hedging my bet from my tone, but there is some uncertainty if the “thought sense” and my very real experience of what i now call imagination are the same thing.


-Where is “i” Seen?
-I don't see anything that's not like internal mental imagery, so those are likely thoughts
1. basically: is internal imagery thought. and i guess follow up would be does it matter to try and distinguish.
2. i think this was second guessing myself, because my honest opinion is that i don’t care to stew on that difference, but there is some real confusion still on how to tell the senses apart, especially thought vs senses.


-What does “i” smell like?
-I can't smell anything related I don't think, really hard to discern
1. whether or not i could actually smell anything.
2. it feels like expressing i don’t think at the time felt safer than admitting i was kinda half in the exercise and frustrated.

-What does “i” sound like?
-Lots of voices, but is that not just thought? Not sure
1. not sure on distinction between thought and sound or sound thoughts.
2. real confusion, but i get the sense that i feel a strong need to express that confusion. it’s like some sort of hiding behind an intellectual identity or protecting that identity, probably

-What body sensations (touching) does “i” have?
-I don't think there's any body sensations.
1. whether or not there’s any body sensation in i
2. i was feeling defensive here. i think i didn’t want to admit yet that i was mostly imaginary, so it was easier to not play the game and just give the answer i think you want /logically makes senseeasi

-How does “i” arise in thought?
-I notice that in order to conjure an I right now, I essentially have to imagine it in thought. Equally, when I think there's a real I, and I flip back to sensory components, it seems like what I thought was really seeing or touching was also just imaginary.
Don't ask me how "I think there's no real I or I imagine it": it seems likely that's all thought too, still working on that see below.
1. uncertainty over whether my interpretation of imaginary was actually imaginery or was real sensation.
2. I think this one I was hedging my bets. I really didnt want to get pinned down on the i.


-Who, where, or what is the "I" to which you are referring above?
-I imagine it's all imaginary, gross. Thoughts about thoughts. Hard to know. There's lots of mental visual and audio imagery that's a bit confusing, but the suggestion of a true essence behind that seems to be like Santa claus.
1. there’s some uncertainty about how thoughts about other thoughts work, and there’s still some mix up about sensation vs thought.
2. I think this one was pretty genuine bewilderment / uncertainty.


-Which category of DE is involved?
-It's only thinking huh. I have fool myself into thinking that it's not just thoughts in order to think there's control. Like you could imagine a mechanism of control and then there's control, *but without letting those thoughts be valid there's nothing.*
1. uncertainty if it’s only thinking involved, how deep that goes.
2. This one seems like an appeal for external confirmation, likely because I didn’t want to go all the way. Some fear.

-Can a smell, sight, touch, sound, taste, or thought make anything happen?
-I don't think so, that seems absurd especially on the main 5 senses. I don't think thought can, there's a noticable desync between a thought of stop or turn and the actual movement, which is perceived by the other senses.
1. uncertainty if senses or thought sense can make anything happen.
2. I’m still uncertain about how movement actually works. “makes happen” seems ilke a story, but how it actually happens? I have no really idea.


Track any decision point when a thought - or anything else - MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
It seems like there are lots of "decision made" thoughts, but those don't clearly correlate with movement
1. confusion again about the interplay between thought and movement and how movement really works.
2. This one to me reads like genuine confusion. If I recall, I was getting to the point of “looked too many times, not sure if interpertation or valid”.


-Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
-Not really I don't think. Outside of thinking, action definitely flows smoothly, painlessly without a clear decision point.
1. uncertainty if I could find a separate individual?
2. this one to me reads like self doubt. hard to know, but “i don’t think I could find anything?” makes no sense.


What is it that is controlling the hand?
I don't know. Thoughts say I should be able to know or this is something controlling it, but that's it.
1. what’s actually controlling the hand is still uncertain to me. is it to you?
2. genuine uncertainty.


How is the decision made?
Again I don't know. I can kinda see thoughts framing a decision, even making one, but the moment of real movement does cleanly align
1. uncertainty: if decisious is only thought.
2. i think it is. action still happens withhout any thought. decision-like-behavior also happens without thought. thoughts are where I can most clearly find what i’d call “a decison,” and it doesn’t lign up perfectly with action. soooo, yes.


todays questions

1. As a matter of experience, is there any distinction between “ego” and any other “part” of “self”?

As far as non-duality uses ego, probably not. I think of self as like the process of thinking plus whatever thinks it’s a real entity / being, which I sometimes think of as me. Can’t say a whole lot about this question, because i’m not really sure what youre asking / pointing to.

2.Does “ego” use a different set of senses than the “rest” of “self” in order to strut its stuff?

I use ego to discuss the negative parts of self that I don’t like, like arrogance, but you just told me that ya’ll use it to essentially describe self. So, no.

3 Where is “ego/I” to be found in direct experience.

As best I can tell, the I is either totally found in thought, or assumed to be in thought but not actually there. I think it’s assumed to be in thought, nothing concrete is even “in thought” the way that my laptop is in the visual field / inseperable from it. need more looking at that if you think it’s worth it, it’s depressing for me a bit

4 Where does it recede to after it’s done putzing, futzing, and fizzing about?

great question. Since it’s only in thought or adjacent, i’m not really sure what’s happening when i’m not thinknig I i I. stuff is still happening, so it’s not like “death,” but it’s not clear that I exist; it’s kinda like how santa exists but only as a story we tell a lot. But the real world still goes on regardless of a belief in santa. I also can’t ditch all the I writing, and idk why this isn’t total freedom lol but rather upsetting almost.

Hi, thanks for your work.

I am having both work and personal / home / family crisis' -

at the moment and will probably need at least 2-3 weeks to sort things out before continuing here, which I am fully committed to doing. If you can't wait for me to come back I would encourage you to repost a new request for a guide, though I'd hope you will (sort of) wait - I really want to go the distance with you; just in a logistical / bandwidth jam presently.

There are many things I could suggest you do in the interim, or if you choose otherwise, consider them parting gifts. I will just choose one for you, to keep it simple.

About 3 years ago, before I came to LU, I was really at the end of my rope. After decades (!) of seeking, suffering, addiction / "recovery" activities, therapy, becoming a therapist (what one does if they are REALLY fcked up!), YOU NAME IT, I did it...cults, self-help. spending the rent (that I barely had - or didn't) on any self-improvement / "encounter" / pop-psychology thing...I mean, really. I tried everything...

Eventually, I became willing to do the one thing I had never been able or willing enough to do:

to sit down, shut up, be quiet, and look at myself.

I was going to get to the bottom of this, or die trying.

At the same moment, the path became incredibly clear.

My wife had started meditating again, this time with an app. She was at peace while doing it. No – she WAS peace, and just like all the other wonderful things she has brought into my life, it was just a space that included me. I didn’t have to do anything.

I also respect the hell out of her, and I got access to the thing and started. It was wonderful. And it worked.

Over the DECADES (!) I had done a lot of groundwork, so this was getting me at a very sweet spot. The "soil" had been well prepared for this. (the joke -- "soil" = sh!te" isn't lost on me ;>)

It wasn't just an "app". The resource she had given me was a comprehensive, practical, no-frills, highest possible quality treatment of the subject of meditation for a world in deep doo-doo, of which I was a prime example.



Here is 30 days free. After that, if you need it, a full scholarship in 6 month increments is available for the asking.

https://dynamic.wakingup.com/guestpass/SCB8D03F9

If you have any difficulty with Sam Harris as a person or as a thought leader, do what you can to set it aside. If this isn’t your path, you won’t take it anyway so there’s nothing to figure out. You will either do this or you won’t.

From my perspective, what you will find in his

Introductory course
https://dynamic.wakingup.com/pack/PK2B0 ... nt%20share

…and

Fundamentals
https://dynamic.wakingup.com/pack/PK2V7 ... nt%20share

…are definitive.

It’s not about becoming a better meditator, or even learning to meditate. It’s a definitive guide to insights and ways of approaching the topic of who and what we are, and what we are not, so that the central insight (“no-self”) becomes clearer, clearer, and is then recognized, much like what LU tries to do but in a far more comprehensive manner.

I would be very surprised if and / or when we resume our conversation, if you have seriously followed the WakingUp curriculum that you will see things as you do now.

There are many other teachers and methods on the app. It is a goldmine. Free for the taking. After decades of knowing about him, I listened to much of the Alan Watts catalog there, and even some of Jospeph Goldstein’s materials, though I’d “successfully” avoided the Insight Meditation center in Barre, MA, for decades, despite living 20 minutes from there for a good chunk of time.

But all I really needed was Sam’s stuff. I “woke up” while doing the work, and came to LU for some additional clarity; though what the app had catalyzed in / for / with me had been whole and complete. I clearly knew there was no more “me”. Nothing has ever been the same.


I spent a short time guiding at LU, but it wasn’t where I needed to do the work that was next, and I didn’t even know what it was, what the landscape was, or anything. There was nothing really happening here that met my needs at the time, so I went looking around. There’s no shortage of places and people to look into.

I eventually found that Rupert Spira was teaching the curriculum I had never known I was looking for all my life. I spent about 9 months immersed in his stuff and eventually drifted away. I’m here again gaining experience guiding because I need it for what I’m up to.


Anyway, now you know more about me, probably more than you need to know.

I meant what I said: I’m committed to this with you, just need to clear my desk for a moment. I can respond to texts or even voice messages here:

(WhatsApp) +31684080991

…on the fly, but the LU platform is too complicated for quick stuff like that. But I’m available. I can even do a call on Tuesdays / Thursdays sound 4 CET, but message me first if you want to do that.

Much love,

Peace,

J

Hi Jeff,
First, sorry about the later response, I did see this earlier but couldn't write anything really until later in the day when I was less busy.

Second, a work / personal / home / family anything is wayyyyyyy more important than anything on here. I appreciate your support, but yes please go take care of that!

Third, I'm happy to wait. A still see Vince the Guide on his zoom meetings 1-2x a week, and we've been doing a lot of control / "I" stuff recently, so who knows, you could come back and this could all be somewhat sorted already. but this point is I won't be left entirely to my own devices to do anything too unskillful. Don't worry about it at all.

Last, thanks for sharing your personal story and for showing me the guided meditation stuff. Not as bad, but I definitely resonated at one point with the "I'm tired of suffering and will do just about anything to get free of me." I'll definitely at least look into Sam Hariss, especially with the free 30 days haha, I don't do too much awakening content recently but good resources are always welcome.

Anyway, thank you for being a good guide and caring, and good fken luck with whatever's going on rn! If you randomly get the urge to send something my way feel free, but yeah
Jack

Hi Jack, I'm back and good to go. Still up for it?

Let me know.

Hi Jeff,
I think so. Hope things are going well! Let me know where we should start.