Step 5, doubt, and wanting to be done with this

[bluzulu]

Lucas, it was great being with you on Zoom yesterday.


you might find this helpful https://360.articulate.com/review/conte ... c0c/review

[avare]

The meeting was great! even just talking regardless of whether any insight came in, was very pleasant :)

i was doing the practice you just sent for the past 20 minutes, cycling through the senses (mostly sight and sound or touch) and there is a sort of paradoxical feeling of it being so peaceful and relaxing, but also feelings of not wanting to do it pop up constantly?

definitely funny in its own way, how there's both a clear feeling of relaxation and calm and a strong intention to 'get out/stop/do something else'.

will keep on this :)

[bluzulu]

Thanks Lucas. Does it make sense why I offered that? Beyond relaxing?




if you do it again, here's a better link where the timer actually works https://storage.googleapis.com/ctys_3/story.html

[bluzulu]

Actually, will you do it again, please, with the new link? No need to plan beforehand how much time you will spend on it, just do it with the strong intention to relax open to all the experiences happening. When there is a realization that attention has been caught up in thought, or then thoughts about that, just come back to the senses.

When the program first opens, it may ask if you want to Resume or Restart, and just click Restart. When the first screen appears, double click on the top half to jump directly to the practice. At the top of the practice screen you will see “Neocortex” . Click on that word and type in “Just This”.

The strong intention to to 'get out/stop/do something else' may occur again, and/or there may be an urge to keep it up with the idea that otherwise I might be disappointed. Or whatever. Just let any urges be there and do what they will, without focusing your attention on them or attempting to not focus your attention on them.

Please do the practice until there is Just This: colors and shapes, sounds, tastes and smells, various experiences of touch, sensations and feelings, thoughts coming and going, urges, etc. When you actually do stop, notice if that was determined by any urges or thoughts.

With love,
/p

[avare]

Does it make sense why I offered that? Beyond relaxing?

yes, to look into direct experience, look at what is happening. see that its only ever just this happening, and all is a part of this. no appearance is any more true or valid or different, its just another appearance.


i just did around 20 minutes, and there was a lot of relaxation and also feeling the effects of the B/R practice. experience seemed more rich, not exactly vibrant but there seemed more varying. more sensations/touch, more sounds, more tastes.

not sure if there was at point where it was just this, but there was attention resting on the senses and thoughts coming and going.


[quote[When you actually do stop, notice if that was determined by any urges or thoughts.[/quote]
there was some preceding thoughts, but that happened a few times before. the actual stopping just happened. there was no intention of following the thought or not, just a getting up to send a reply.


earlier today, after i sent the reply, i listened to a couple of non-duality videos, and noticed there was again an undercurrent of frustration to ‘not getting it’. nothing really strong but just this constant feeling. perhaps i should stop watching anything completely?

I didn’t try to dictate what i did so much today and let whatever happened happen. so more ‘distraction’ happened, in watching videos/listening to music to just doze off occurred. although the thoughts during and now about the past are still judgemental and doubt is still appearing, there was some letting of trying to force this.

there’s thoughts about giving up trying to control or ‘make awakening happen’ and then more thoughts about giving up being something else that would involve trying to give up.

a few feelings/thoughts about giving up in general or that everything orienting towards this is just distraction and its instead some assumption or belief or some other tiny thing that is just hanging around, which needs to be cut.

gosh, reading that over it seems so odd to go with any of it. it is so very obvious in hindsight that it is just exactly what we talked about, about thinking that there is something that has to go, and it just being another thought just appearing.

thank you for all the help!

[bluzulu]

gosh, reading that over it seems so odd to go with any of it. it is so very obvious in hindsight that it is just exactly what we talked about, about thinking that there is something that has to go, and it just being another thought just appearing.

Beautiful, Lucas.

there was some preceding thoughts, but that happened a few times before. the actual stopping just happened. there was no intention of following the thought or not, just a getting up to send a reply.

So what the biological you did (stopping, getting up, sending a reply) happened quite naturally, on it’s own, regardless of thoughts and urges?
What is left when thoughts are not getting attention?



“Do not believe in anything (simply) because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything (simply) because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on authority of your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason
and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Gautama Buddha

[avare]

So what the biological you did (stopping, getting up, sending a reply) happened quite naturally, on it’s own, regardless of thoughts and urges?

yes, it happened and then there was an explanation attached. same as what is going on right now, the fingers are typing and there' seeing and feeling all happening without there being a prior thought or decision to do any of it.

What is left when thoughts are not getting attention?

when thoughts are not getting attention, what is left is sensation. just the actual experiencing. I 100% get it logically, but thought seems to be so connected to experiencing. looking now, every tactile sensation seems to be automatically noticed with a conjured image of where the sensation attaches to. like a feeling on the foot comes as a feeling and an image of the foot. it seems that there is always an image (so a thought) attached to all the sensations, that then I can't see just the experiencing because attention moves to the image.

also wow, a lot of aversion came up today. pretty much right after seeing your reply in the morning up till now there was such a strong feeling of not wanting to look, of being scared/frustrated that any looking wouldn't do anything. always hearing that you get it now or never, but then never getting it. which I think now are what might be causing the belief that there is something that must be done to then wake up 'later' because when i look now, nothing changes.

this last week has been steeped in so much doubt, so much underlying frustration with a constant low current of anxiety/fear

sorry for replying late in the day, not even busy with life, just mind making itself busy with anything but this!

[bluzulu]

O Lucas, I’m so sorry this has been so painful for you.

There seems to be some kind of belief or expectation about what is “supposed” to happen when one is awake or awakening.
And so much resistance and attention to whatever is happening at any given time if it doesn't match that.

For example, why is it not ok that a thought or image of a foot appears when you notice a sensation there?
Isn’t that thought or image just another experience happening all on its own?

[avare]

Hey Pablo, thank you for the reply. there is a lot of expectations that I seem to still be holding on to. I just wrote long hand for 15 minutes trying to see what I'm still holding on to, and wow its a lot.

I read over the section on expectations from the liberation unleashed book, and I'm just going to go through the day letting it all be okay. just noticing when an expectation or a judgement about what should be happening comes up, and acknowledging it.

Seems to be very clear that there isn't any more 'work' or 'doing' but just seeing this urge as just another part of what is happening now.

Thank you for your pointed question, I'll let you know what comes up later today!

So much gratitude,
Lucas

[bluzulu]

Great Lucas, thank you.

Thoughts are the product of neurons firing in certain patterns in the brain.
The more attention they get, for example because they are believed to be wrong, the more those neurons fire and get connected with other neurons, and it all gets stronger and more easily evoked.

Obviously, some thoughts are creative and helpful, and those will stand out and be recognized, and attention to them is skillful. (Hence, the lightbulb icon). Those have more connections with the PreFrontal Cortex, which operates best in calm purposeful awareness of what is intentionally happening now, whether that is walking or typing and/or talking etc.

[avare]

Hey, today was my busiest day of the week--i was in class until 7pm.

However, in the off moments, the in-betweens, there was less frustration, anxiety and much more calm.

No shift, no insight, still expectations, but less so.

The just this practice with relaxing attention happened a couple times throughout the day.

And every so often there is something different about the moment, usually from questioning what is going on. Like as if for a split second I no longer know what's going on. Like I stop taking for granted things such as existing right now and consciousness as a concept and become curious with no idea what is going on.

It lasts for less than a second but intuition says to go there, and orienting towards it.

Thanks for guiding me through this. I'm really so grateful.

[bluzulu]

Guiding you is a pleasure, Lucas.

Like as if for a split second I no longer know what's going on. Like I stop taking for granted things such as existing right now and consciousness as a concept and become curious with no idea what is going on.

Yes Yes!

The danger now would be trying to regain some state or experience that happened.
Trust the Just This.

Looking forward to hearing from you next.

[avare]

The danger now would be trying to regain some state or experience that happened.

Definitely saw some of this going on throughout the day.

unfortunately(?) nothing happened. lots of thoughts about trying to go back to that experience popped up.

--
Hey, sorry for the late reply, I was writing the above, and decided to actually look some more. throughout the day a lot of avoidance was happening, in listening to music or imagining a novel/story.

if i look in experience, there is no self. but thoughts say there is, and they are believed almost always. not sure whether anything has been crossed or if this is just more of the same?

This doesnt seem any different, nor like it was seen through? could all this just be some mental happenings to keep away from that gap (moment) I mentioned earlier?

A lot of doubt right now about everything is appearing, which is both kinda of funny and frustrating.

[bluzulu]

if i look in experience, there is no self. but thoughts say there is, and they are believed almost always.

Can you help me understand the thoughts and the experience of believing them? Describe in detail, as much as you can, please.

A lot of doubt right now about everything is appearing

Help me understand that statement, too, please. What do you mean by that?

[bluzulu]

Also, please list the evidence for and against a self that fires the neurons that result in thoughts and actions.