Mind that loves to philosophize and grab on to concepts and experiences

[ajef]

Hi. Thank you so much for being here with me through this process, Stacy! I appreciate you :)
Its getting late here in Norway - I will be back for a reply tomorrow.
With love,
Anna

[ajef]

Hi Stacy. Hope you're well.
I would like to clarify one thing.

The second one cannot be true because there is no such thing as I. That lie usually causes tension in the gut.

Do you here mean the first one cannot be true? (first one = I, second one = just describing without the I). I see I might have formulated myself messy in my first answer, sorry about the confusion. But I assume its the one with the I that CANNOT be true, and I can agree on this.

Also

What is there without labels is only direct experience.

Can you see that?

I need some clarity around this. Is direct experience not labels? For example when I say warm, white etc, is it not just words/labels to describe something? Like the brain is saying this is an apple, because of past experiences and labels etc? I don't understand this. It feels to me like its with emotion (sensation + thought). I realize we have to use words to communicate about this but this is always the part that trips me up. If I sit with it for too long I get overwhelmed by confusion and get into freeze mode.

Ok and for this exercise... I've tried with a few lies like "i love cow milk, I love debt". It feels very subtle. But I would say I feel a tingeling, moving, energy in the belly. slight heaviness, or more like sinkingness. Some tightness in the jaw. slight sense of discomfort, but I cannot localize it to one point, so maybe thats just an assumption.

Also might be worth mentioning, I have noticable pressure in the chest. But this pressure has been there for some weeks now and is most likely related to body fighting some infection, so maybe not super easy to notice the chest area for this exercise.

With love, Anna.

[Anastacia42]

With "I" is not true

Is direct experience not labels?

Direct Experience is a very short list of the minimum label to communicate. Truth is wordless, but there's no way to work here without a few

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Are you clear now? Here is your first pointer for practice.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[ajef]

Hi.

Are you clear now? Here is your first pointer for practice.

Yes, I think so.

Activity - Eating mandarin
Seeing a mandarine, simply= image/color
Smelling sitrus, simply = smell
Feeling the skin of the mandarine, simply = sensation
Tasting the sour and sweet taste, simply = taste
Hearing the chewing, simply = sound
Thought about a conversation, simply = thought

Activity - Hanging up clothes
Seeing wet clothes, simply= image/color
Smelling basement, simply = smell
Feeling the movement, simply = sensation
Tasting nothing, simply = taste
Hearing music playing, simply = sound
Thought about a worry, simply = thought

Activity - Lying on the floor
Seeing black with pink-ish pixels, simply= image/color
Smelling condense air, simply = smell
Feeling the back against the floor, simply = sensation
Tasting fanta in mouth, simply = taste
Hearing the light bulb, simply = sound
Thought about planning, simply = thought

With love, Anna

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes. Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[ajef]

Hi Stacy.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one (without the I) feels more true.

2. What is here without labels?

Just pure sensory data.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

This time, I honestly can't say I notice a huge difference in the body. However, there is a subtle difference. On the first one, I feel more "hectic" (also had way many more points), this feels like restlessness or fast moving sensation (like an impulse to "do", its very hard to describe as its not felt exactly at one point in the body, its in the whole body). I also felt slightly more tired, exhausted, urge to lay down and tightness in upper neck. Also light headache, felt on both, but slightly more on the first one.
The second one, the body feels slightly less tense. More patient (felt as more quiet, spacious (?) more "nothingness" or willingness to be in the quiet, hard to explain).

With love, Anna

[Anastacia42]

Hi Anna

You're seeing clearly. Check your solar plexus for either expansion or contraction. This is not complicated. Keep being aware of that area & we can move on.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving

[ajef]

Hi Stacy.

The colour that is seen is red. It remains red, even if the label says green, or good or bad. These are just words, the colour is still seen as red. Red is seen as the same red colour, no matter what the words say. Putting the label "green" or anything else does not change the colour red. The label "green" exist as letters; G R E E N, but it does not change the experience of the colour red.

With love,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Correct

Please Quote one question. followed by a reply, then go to the next on, use Quote and then reply, etc.

This is important for 2 reasons. One I read these on my phone and it helps me. Two, at the end of this we will be sharing your answers with other guides and they will want it in that format to make it easier for them to read.

These instructions are from my first reply. Please review them

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660



Thank you,

[Anastacia42]

Don't you remember the apple exercise?
How is "self" any different?

This one:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

Following the instructions on using Quote, please reply.

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

[ajef]

Hi Stacy. Of course, thanks for the reminder. I will answer the questions again in the correct format.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

The actual experience is of the colour red.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The colour red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label green suggest something else other than whats actually here (red colour).

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

green is just a label.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

The redness remains the same redness, no matter what the label suggests.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no affect on reality. Red remains the same.

With love, Anna

[ajef]

Hi Stacy.

Don't you remember the apple exercise?

Sorry, I cannot remember doing an apple exercise here on this forum before. Are you refering to the direct experience exercise? Anyway, I will do the exercise now.

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

Yes, I agree on this.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

They describe what the mind is creating. For example the apple: its just the mind labelling it as an apple, based on past experiences and ideas, thoughts. So content of thoughts describe, label, the visual field and makes sense of it, translates it.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is only colour, shape, and the mind saying "this is an apple" (yes, thought about it being something).

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Apple is just a label on something that appears in actual experience.

However, is an apple actually known?

I cannot know that I see an apple. An apple is just a word to describe something.

So I think this was my confusion in the "Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities", the first time I did it. Do you remember? It feels to me that saying for example: I see an apple, or "an apple is seen" to remove the "I". Is also just a label. And in this sense, is everything not just labels? (becuase as soon as we use words, its a way to describe something, not the actual experience of it).
What am I not understanding here?


And so to come back to the question at the top;

How is "self" any different?

Well.. Compared to the apple I assume. Well, the self is also just a label. However the word "apple" is refering to an object that appears to exist "outside". the word "Self" is referring to a subject that appears to exist "inside". I really don't know what else to say about this. Although I see that the word apple is just a label (might have been called something else), and the Self is just a label, I guess the thought about it is believed so hard (by what, I dont know) that it feels true when its not..? Would love some pointers here.

With love, Anna

[ajef]

Hi Stacy. How are you?
Just wanted to check in and see if we are still doing this or if you need a break. I ofc understand you have a life and not always available for this. I really appreciate your time.
I've been working on the question of the self since our last interaction, read all the stories and questions through found on the blog of the founders of this forum. I just really appreciate input as I don't see my own blindspots.
With love,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Hi Anna

So glad you wrote. I dropped the ball. We are suddenly buying a house & moving to another state. I remember reading your answer & thinking to answe later, but never came back to it. in short I got distracted. If it happens again,hopefully not, just write again. That sends an emai..

Let's do this pointer:

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving

[ajef]

Hi Stacy. Wow, that sounds like big changes are happening in your life. Sending good energy in to your moving process! :)

Thank you for a great pointer. I've sat with this, have some resistance and distraction coming up, but here are my reflections.

Does the sense of self have a location?

It feels like the sense of self is located in the chest, and behind the eyes.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It does not have a particular shape or a size. Its more of a "knowing", it is transparent, like air. it is felt as a pressure.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Catch phrase: "always be one step ahead of yourself!" it does not speak those words exactly but have that energy to it, very rushed energy.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

It communicates through "impulses", urges, increased thoughts, worries.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It is impatient, fast, rushed, pressure, icky feeling of wrongness; something should be different. Restlessness, indecisiveness.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It is made up of thoughts, which includes planning, evaluation and worrying. Thoughts about "should and should not", contemplation, rumination. And sensations: pressure in various forms, mostly in chest area and in the head. Sometimes feeling of wrongness, made up of thoughts.

What is found?

These thoughts and sensations feels so so familiar. Especially the evaluation and worrying, and pressure. I can see that it is not "me", yet still it feels so like me because it is so familiar and safe. In times of quiet, when its not there, its almost like its empty. And this sense sneaks its way back in smoothly, almost like I invite it in. It actually feels very similar to a toxic relationship; it feels good but wrong. It reminds me of one time I tried to use my left hand for every thing (i'm right handed), it took less than one minute before I automatically used my right hand again without thinking about it. Thats how automatic and familiar this sense of self feels.

With love,
Anna