I had been relying on habitualy naming of things in order to feel stable

[rich879]

and they like that right now.

and they *feel* like that right now

[graceabounds]

The only thing that continues no matter what is happening

Does that which ‘continues’ actually continue?
Or is continuity already a thought added afterward?

Is there something persisting through moments?
Or is there simply no interruption ever found?


You are not located inside what you’re pointing at.
And what you’re pointing at is not located anywhere.

Does “I am” point to anything outside itself?

[rich879]

Nadolig Llawen :)

Yes. I see. I was applying attributes which corrupt the view.
Anything which I point to or even my sense of being here are all part of the view and view is constantly changing.

There is a sort of feeling of me-ness which overlays the body but I can see that it is part of the view.

[graceabounds]

Can you point to this feeling of me-ness?
Does it have a center?

[rich879]

It doesn't seem to. I found me-ness in thoughts that I'd forgotten where there and when I look at things that I own, I feel the same me-ness in thoughts about those objects. So the me-ness must always be thought.

[graceabounds]

Precisely.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘thesethoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

[rich879]

There is a sort of anticipation of "who I am" to be revealed by the next thought, then the next, then the next...
It's kind of enthralling, like making a discovery or even a questing sensation.
But I can see that the thoughts are happening distinctly, and when I look closely at the thoughts and see that they are distinct happenings it does leave me floundering somewhat, like I just lost direction. Not that any of this feels bad at all.
It's more like orientation -> disorientation

I can't predict my next thought. I have thoughts that suggest that I am in control.
I can't see a range of thoughts to select from, but I have been duped before now into believing a thought that says I can.
When thoughts are painful, I have often tried to reason them away or comfort myself so no, I am not in control.
Can I pick any choose any kind of thought? This question is making me smile because despite the previous observations, it still seemed like I could wilfully think something. I could imagine a red ball, and there it is floating in "space", but did I choose it? I'm actually not sure now.
No I can't prevent a thought from occuring. There's nothing in me that can see the thought that is coming next.

So the sense of an organised sequence?
I described like, a thrill of discovery or questing sensation but that's in retrospect.
I feel a bit disoriented, but in a good way.

[graceabounds]

Yes, this is the best kind of disorientation.

It is ok to look all the way into this and fall.
‘You’ are not in control of any of it.

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountainside.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where a ‘you’ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look good for that person!)
etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which a you is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

[rich879]

Everything I do can be seen as a result of prior conditions. There's nowhere for anything to happen that is not somehow apart from the causal chain. It seems like the will to be in control moves into a private space where it can imagine itself as autonomous in whatever way it can believe, like, being able to make better choices or choose different paths. But actually, that is a fantasy because I've never had the whole universe "in my head" with a selection of maps to choose from. I know also that medical research has shown that decisions are made before we are consciously aware (at which point, we claim ownership and write a narrative.)
If I was to be in control of anything then, it would be the fantasies and reasons that I conjure to explain my life. As we've already discussed though, I don't even get to choose my next thought.
I feel like a contradiction, where some fiction is writing about it's own fictional nature.
I'm afraid of disappearing into the colour and sound, not remembering anything or having any separate mind-space to call my own. I don't believe I have a choice and it sort of feels like dying.

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Once upon a time did you believe in Santa Claus? Do you remember learning he was not real? Was he once real and then not real or did he never exist to begin with?

Most importantly, did anything about ‘Christmas’ really change? or did everything go along like before?

This is like that.

it sort of feels like dying.

Where exactly is that felt?
Describe the physical sensation directly.

Now, (without thinking about it) look directly behind that. Check what the sensation is protecting.


The “fear of disappearing” isn’t about annihilation. It’s about the imaginary entity that believes it’s the one who disappears…

Nothing changes, but everything will be different.

-Becca

[rich879]

I have been getting a lot of these kinds of feelings, like I'm dying or that the things and people I love will not last forever. I considered them true, and they feel heart felt. It's an ache in my heart.
Behind that feeling I feel my fear of disappearing without having mattered.
It all feels quite empty at the moment.

[graceabounds]

Sending a lot if love with these words…

I have been getting a lot of these kinds of feelings, like I'm dying or that the things and people I love will not last forever. I considered them true, and they feel heart felt

Are you able to separate what is felt from what is thought?

Is the sensation in the heart threatening without the story about it?

Behind that feeling I feel my fear of disappearing without having mattered.

This too sounds like a thought on top of a sensation. What is the story that ‘I’ is looking for?

It all feels quite empty at the moment.

What is the actual direct experience of emptiness? Look prior to thought or interpretation and describe it.
Is it heavy or light?
Contracted or open?
Threatening or neutral?

Is emptiness a strictly internal experience or is it external as well?

[rich879]

Yes I can see the sensation without the story.
If not for the stories, the sensation would not be the least bit threatening.

I can move my attention directly into sensation, and even see thought as sensation.
It must be that I have lacked the confidence to stay there without believing the stories.

The picture I'm getting is that the thoughts can say whatever they want, but that I am not obligated to believe they speak truth. This is going to be a leap of faith for me, or perhaps I need to keep exploring the pointers you have given so that my faith in thought gets weaker and weaker.

[graceabounds]

If not for the stories, the sensation would not be the least bit threatening.

Ah, beautiful. So, staying with it... exploring its edges and letting it be as it is... and without following thought stories... how does this sensation want to express? what happens?

The picture I'm getting is that the thoughts can say whatever they want, but that I am not obligated to believe they speak truth. This is going to be a leap of faith for me

Exactly. If you are not the owner of thought, the thoughts can just go on about their business. It has nothing to do with "you".

Is it a leap of faith if it has always been this way? Does it require any leaping or any faith? Or just clear seeing...

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all color. Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

[rich879]

I understand. Thank you Becca. After that last pointer, I can't find any problems or points of enquiry.