The Gate

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see letters that are written in a color that is called "red". The letters spell out the word "GREEN" which is the label that is used for a different color, not the one being experienced as I look at the word.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Red is directly experienced by my sense of color/image. Green is not experienced, it is the mental label that is associated with letters arranged in that order.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The "GREEN" label is pointing to the experience of a different color which is not here now. Green does not exist in your post, so the label is pointing to a concept and not something in reality

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

The label "GREEN" has nothing to do with experiencing the color red. Green is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red. I know this sin't what was asked, but I would say that "GREEN" doesn't have anything to do with the experience of seeing green either, but it's just the label that is commonly used to describe that experience. The word is not the experience.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, the experience doesn't change based on the label

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Ah, okay I think I see what you are pointing at here. Experience is 'as it is' and labelling it has no affect in that it doesn't actually change the experience itself, maybe just the way that you mentally think about it or conceptualize it. Reality does not change based on the way that we label things.

Let me know what is SEEN.

What I SEE is not affected by any labels that I use to describe it. Labels exist in the mind, but if we work under the assumption that the content of thoughts can be ignored, then it makes no difference to the direct experience that I am having.

Experience is 'as it is' and labelling it has no affect in that it doesn't actually change the experience itself, maybe just the way that you mentally think about it or conceptualize it. Reality does not change based on the way that we label things.

Yes, exactly. Good.

Now this:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

What is found?

This one was a bit more difficult because it felt like the sensations were really subtle and I wanted to make sure I wasn't just imagining things or feeling sensations that weren't related to the lying. I'm still not sure all of these are specific to lying in and of itself, but here is what I found.

Sensations that came up for me:
- Empty feeling in the solar plexus that felt like it was pushing down on my stomach/abdomen area
- Heaviness in the heart
- A tight, squirming feeling in the stomach
- Slightly faster, shallower breathing
- Wetness in the eyes
- Rigid/tense in the neck and jaw area
- A faint "shooting" feeling through my core when I tried saying lies out loud, almost like a freezing feeling that started in my chest and went through the center down to the bottom of my belly
- A feeling of "freezing" in general. Not in that it was cold, but like things were stopping, heavy, slowing, or shutting down

Do you see that?

Yes, I understand. Emotions are often labels that are used to label a group of sensations in the body, but don't actually describe the sensations that you are having. "I'm sad" is an emotion and doesn't actually describe something in your direct experience because it is a label/concept. Stick with my direct experience.

Hi,

Well, that's way more than necessary for describing the Sensations. We were, as mentioned, only looking primarily for tension in the gut.

Emotions are often labels

ALWAYS labels overlaying Sensations. which are Direct Experience.

Stick with my direct experience.

Correct.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving,

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The content of thoughts are concepts, and they do not have anything to do with direct experience. They are labels that are overlayed onto direct experience, but do not appear in actual experience. When I see the picture of an apple my mind immediately labels it as an apple, but the only things that are there in actual experience are the colors and forms (and a thought appearing).

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

‘apple’ cannot be found in actual experience because it is a mental label that is placed over actual experience(s)

However, is an apple actually known?

‘Apple’ is never actually known because it is an abstract idea. ‘Apple’ is used as a simplification that groups together certain things that have similar actual experiences, but in reality every single apple you ever experience is going to be unique and have a different actual experience. The concept of apple distances you from the actual experience in front of you, and any content of thoughts are additional labels that are irrelevant to the direct experience.

I can say "Oh wow, that apple is really red" but then we have the same discussion as the "GREEN" label in the other post. Similar as if I were to say "That apple looks really juicy/yummy/round/etc." They are all labels that are not actual experience.

Wait, I think this is breaking my brain a bit haha

For clarification, am I understanding correctly that anything you could ever talk about is just labels? There is nothing that I could ever say that substitutes the actual experience of an apple. Content of any thoughts are just labels that dont have any influence in actual experience. All words are just pointers. Even when I am labelling sensations, the labels themselves are not actual experience.

am I understanding correctly that anything you could ever talk about is just labels?

Yes.

Just. Like. "self."


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving

This one is hard. The first few times really paying attention I started to tear up a bit for some reason.

How is the movement controlled?

I’ve flipped my hand more than a hundred times now and I still don’t think I have a clear idea of how it is controlled.

Does a thought control it?

Thoughts themselves are not doing the actual controlling. I can think “I am going to move my hand now” “I am going to flip my hand slower this time” “I am going to flip it 10 times” etc. but the thought is not the controller of the hand. It’s like the apple thing; the thought and the action are so closely tied together in my mind that it feels like one and the same thing, but I can see that it’s not.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

There has to be something deciding to move my hand, right? If I just pay attention to direct experience it’s almost like it’s happening on its own and I am just sensing what is happening. My mind tells me that there has to be some type of controller, but I know I’m not supposed to pay attention to the contents of thought. At the same time it seems I can move my hand without any thought occurring. If thought is not the controller in some way I don’t know if I can locate any controller. This one is harder to accept. Maybe I need to flip my hand a hundred times more haha.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I think there are two scenarios that I am noticing.

1. I can think “Flip the hand now” and then my hand will flip a split second later after the thought
2. I can pay attention to direct experience and without any content of thought the hand can flip on its own

I think in scenario 2 there is sometimes a situation where there’s post-rationalization that “I” was the one that controlled it even though there was no thought at the time.
In scenario 1 the decision seems to be made to listen to my thoughts and react as soon as possible after a thought happens
In scenario 2 the decision seems to be made on its own somehow? It feels like instincts or something. Whenever the hand “feels” like flipping is when it is flipped



Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

This was another thing that was not a thought or consciously decided. Most of the time I’ve been flipping my dominant hand, so it seems to point back to some type of instinct, or whatever feels natural. Of course I can think “I will use my left hand now” and then flip my left hand.. but then the question becomes did I decide to have the thought to use my left hand?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Not in direct experience..

Pretty good.

There has to be something deciding to move my hand, right?

Nope. Apparently not. How these things happen is a total mystery in both of your scenarios, isn't it?

Go asked ahead. Flip your hand 1000 times & there will still be no decider, no doer, no controller at all.

fMRI studies show that the action happens first & we make up a story of "I" did something *afterwards.*

Find these in "Free Will:" by Sam Harris, "The Mind's Past" by Gazzaginiga and "On Being Certain" by Burton.

Disorienting, but very cool.

How does it FEEL to see this?

Loving

Disorienting, but very cool.



Yes, VERY cool.



How does it FEEL to see this?



It’s hard to describe how it feels because it mostly triggers a lot of mental activity. Lots of thoughts. Lots of arguments, shock, disorientation, etc. but I’m assuming you don’t care about the contents of my thoughts.

I’m flipping my hand some more. I can feel the sensations in my arm with more clarity. There is a feeling of curiosity (maybe a slight buzz in the head and more energy in my system). My eyes feel like they are open wider. There’s a sense of awe, maybe disbelief. Like mentioned before, sometimes if I do it long enough with enough attention there are tears in my eyes. There’s a sense of ease and relaxation in my body. It feels so obvious, but its also blowing my mind again.

Very strange feeling, it’s hard to describe. I am noticing that whatever the feeling is, its spilling over into every movement I do (not just flipping my hand) whenever I remember to pay attention.

Great!

tears in my eyes

Those are "truth tears."

There’s a sense of ease and relaxation in my body. It feels so obvious, but its also blowing my mind again.

And can you find any separate:"self?"

Loving,

I think I'm a big fan of "truth tears" haha

And can you find any separate:"self?"

I am going to have to sit with this one for a bit. I will admit that it is harder to come up with an answer or figure out where the self is, but there is still some sense that the self is there. This whole experience still feels like it is happening to "me". There is a weird feeling of lightness and expansiveness throughout my whole body. I will have to look and feel some more. I will get back to you tonight or tomorrow with what I find.

There is awareness but that is not a self.

Self is a sensation of contraction or the lie feeling plus a thought or label or story, which is made up and not real.

No more than that

Look honestly and you will find this is true.

lightness and expansiveness throughout my whole body.

That's the truth feeling. Review that pointer.

Loving

Okay, I’m sort of feeling frustrated. I went back and read through our entire thread so far. It feels like I know what I should be doing, but I’m feeling stuck or like I’m not getting it. I should just be able to look at direct experience and realize that there is no self, right? I know I shouldn’t be engaging in the content of thought since it’s not direct experience, but here is what happens.

- I sit down and there is a thought “Okay, let’s see where the feeling of ‘self’ is at”
- I start looking at direct experience and I feel sensations, hear sounds, see images, notice thoughts but don’t engage in their content
- Most of the time the frequency of thoughts seems to die down and I continue just noticing direct experience
- I can notice that thoughts aren’t needed for experience to happen and I can get in touch with a faint feeling of things “just happening” on their own
- I can notice that there is a disconnect between my thoughts and everything else, like thoughts are almost like an unnecessary layer that gets added “on top” of experience
- I sit with that for a bit
- Eventually I get drawn back to thoughts that say “Did you find a self?” “Where is the self?” “I still don’t get it” “I don’t feel different”

The “self” seems to be my thoughts. There are still a lot of expectations about what I think this realization is going to feel like. Paying attention to direct experience feels like I am taking a break from my thoughts for a while, and maybe even seeing a more “true” reality, but then there is this idea that I am going to come back to engaging with the content of my thoughts and feel different somehow.



I do the hand flipping and I can see that there is no controller there, and even though I intellectually understand that the same principle applies to thoughts, there is still this feeling that I am in control of my thoughts. I have a lot of identity around my thoughts.



I don’t know if this is related to the “self” or not but there is also a feeling of controlling my attention. It feels like I can control where I put my attention, so there is another feeling there that I am a self that is controlling my awareness in some way.

Good morning,

There’s a sense of ease and relaxation in my body. It feels so obvious, but its also blowing my mind again.

Very strange feeling, it’s hard to describe. I am noticing that whatever the feeling is, its spilling over into every movement I do (not just flipping my hand) whenever I remember to pay attention.

It definitely sounds like you are only stuck in doubt and expectation. This indescribable feeling that is blowing your mind could be all that it is for now. But I'm not in your mind and I cannot interpret your experience for you.

You're not going to disappear in a puff of smoke.

Mind blowing is not enough?

Thoughts do not stop, especially at first. You simply know better than to believe them. There are times when thoughts stop, but that would be later and not something we guide here. This is only the beginning.

In terms of the fetters we only expect for the first 3 to drop here: self, doubt, and rites and rituals.

Here is something to watch, particularly at about 57 minutes.

https://youtu.be/517Rggo0qtE?si=xFmpfKqLTFsGs2pB

and this on doubt:

https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

Tell me if this helps.

Loving,

Thanks for the videos! I watched them both and I have been sitting some more, paying attention to direct experience.

Mind blowing is not enough?

haha yeah, I don't exactly know what to say to that. I've had my mind blown a lot of times but it never meant that my sense of self was gone. I realize how funny it is saying that though, because we are talking about the realization that my thoughts are not me and there is nobody controlling my experience..

The second video you sent me talked about doubt being caused by underlying beliefs and I am realizing that I have a lot of my own that I have about this "awakening" or whatever you want to call it.

Some beliefs that I am holding on to:
- I will never identify with my own thoughts again
- Seeing through the illusion of self will be obvious and impossible to miss, there will be a noticeable shift in how I experience life
- Strange things are supposed to happen like seeing very clearly, memory loss, disorientation
- I'm supposed to have a moment of extreme fear right before breaking through to some big realization
- I won't be able to forget the realization of no-self, there won't be any doubt
- There will be a strong pull towards the present at all times
- I will no longer identify with the past as "the person I am" or the future as "the person I am supposed to become"
- There will be a sense of ease and enjoyment to everything that I do, at least for a while
- There will be a very clear before awakening vs after awakening

Like I said at the top, its funny talking about this because I have experienced the feeling of dis-identifying from my thoughts, not being the one that controls my hand (or any actions), and realizing that any thoughts I ever have about reality are not reality itself.. And yet my mind keeps telling me that is just a weird mind trick, and that I am the same person and I'm just going to be the same self I have always been. I keep forgetting and becoming completely identified with thoughts.

It sounds like maybe there is not much more to do here? I just need to sit with direct experience more and let the realizations that I have seen actually sink in? It feels like you are saying that I have already done what we came here to do, but I honestly don't feel like anything has changed. Maybe my idea of what "getting rid of self" meant was too grand? Maybe I read too much and listened to too many experiences that other people had?

I really do appreciate your help, I hope you know that, but theres definitely a feeling of disappointment. It still just feels like "is that all?" Just a little mind trick? It feels like I am the exact same person in every way as before, but now I can just tap into this feeling like everything is just happening on its own for a couple minutes.. and then go back to life exactly as it was.