Looking for a guide

[LanieRO]

Hi again,

I don't know what happened to the formatting in the last post - attempting again!

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it? (If yes, provide description please)
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It looks like the thought thinks itself. A thought just appears in consciousness, from nowhere (although some thoughts are in a train attached to previous thoughts). I don't see a thinker; I see an autonomous structure doing thought and responding to thought. I can't find someone directing the thought.

Things in the environment can influence thoughts - hearing scary music might make it more likely to have fearful thoughts if I'm walking home in the dark later - and also body states or feelings might make certain types of thoughts more likely to come up.

Thoughts seem like just a habit. Many of my thoughts are alarmingly similar and thought chains seem to take me to only a handful of different mental locations.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Thoughts seem to appear and then fade. If given attention they often stay longer, but otherwise they'll fade quickly. Sometimes body states affect this - for example, if the body feels anxious, thoughts will come quickly and often, and the more anxious ones feel sticky and hard to disconnect from attention.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

The thoughts: 
I can control thoughts. See, now I'm going to think about my hands. And now my nose. And now my feet. I'm controlling this
I wonder if I'm too cooperative / not cooperative enough
An image of a child with the feet of a duck stomping around
an image of a lawn mower with crab claws cutting grass
Oops, I forgot about a meeting

The order is not predictable - even the thinking about hands/nose felt like an illusion of controlling thought, but not like actual control. 

The first two thoughts are related to larger themes and these themes connected to other thoughts over the last several days and weeks. 

The last three thoughts do seem to have some external connections - the Images were both in response to far away sounds. The images were random and ridiculous and absolutely not representative of the type of construction going on outside. The meeting thought was popped up from my subconscious without any will at all - perhaps it was just waiting for a quiet mind. 

It's impossible to stop a thought from appearing, but it seems that there might be some level of control over the amount of attention that is given to the thought. I've been trying to spend more time in direct experience; when I find myself daydreaming, I redirect my attention to direct experience. I feel like this might be the wrong answer, but it feels right now like I have control over the direction of awareness, but not over the content of it. 

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

My thoughts are certainly not 100% true. 

When I don't think about what I am, I feel like awareness. 

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

This one was a bit harder! I feel like I have the "wrong" answers but am being as honest as I can about what's going on.

There are no right or wrong answers, just what is true at the moment. Being honest is the only way this will work. No one to be impressed or disappointed.

Can I please ask you not to answer in bulk?! I know there were a lot of questions and the quote function had to be used a lot, but this really helps me see where the illusion is. It also shows me that you stayed with each question and you looked specifically instead of doing a summary of general looking. All these question point from a different direction and playing with each of them has its own value.

It looks like the thought thinks itself. A thought just appears in consciousness, from nowhere (although some thoughts are in a train attached to previous thoughts).

What is that thought made of? Not what it’s about—what is it, right now, as it appears?
Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around (like bubbles) in “consciousness”?
To what do they appear, what recognises them? What is consciousness? What colour is it? Is it a container of a sort? Where does it start and end? Is it warm? Heavy? Tight? Can you touch it? Taste it?
Is consciousness appearing… or is ‘consciousness’ just a word/a concept? Is consciousness ever actually experienced on its own (no sensations, no colour not even “black”, no sound, no heartbeat or breathing, zilch) or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Furthermore, where does the thought end and consciousness begin? Do you see borders, outlines? Are there a thinker/ consciousness, thinking, and a thought separate, like in language, where a sentence has a subject, an object and a action? Or is there just a thought/thinking happening?
Is the thought known or just IS? Is knowing a thing, or a thought? If thought says, “I’m aware of thoughts” — who hears that? What is the difference between recognising a thought as such and its content?

I don't see a thinker; I see an autonomous structure doing thought and responding to thought. I can't find someone directing the thought.

Thoughts seem to appear and then fade. If given attention they often stay longer, but otherwise they'll fade quickly.

Who is the ‘I’ that doesn’t see the thinker?
And: “If there’s no thinker, then who just said that?”
When a thought appears, is it observed?
Observed by what? By whom? Describe this autonomous structure with more detail – colour, sensation…? How exactly is it experienced? Is it the well-known in the teachings consciousness?

Thoughts seem like just a habit. Many of my thoughts are alarmingly similar and thought chains seem to take me to only a handful of different mental locations.

Look again — is ‘habit’ an explanation, or a direct experience?
Is habit experienced… or thought about?
How is it known that there are chains of thought without their content? Do they have numbers? Outlines? How can you know where one thought ends and the other begin, without knowing what they are about (their content/not DE)?

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,
Long one today! Hope your day's going well. :)

Can I please ask you not to answer in bulk?!

Yup - sorry. I've separated out the questions (mostly) in this one, but I kept a few of them together because they seemed directly connected - let me know if you'd like these separated out more too. Also, in the last response I messed up the formatting and then re-posted with better formatting – I think your response was to the weirdly formatted one. I just assumed the newest one would be on top. Apologies! I’ll figure out how to delete posts next time I have a formatting crisis.

What is that thought made of? Not what it’s about—what is it, right now, as it appears?

Thoughts are made of nothing. They appear and disappear and leave nothing behind

Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around (like bubbles) in “consciousness”?

Nope

To what do they appear, what recognises them?

Thoughts appear in awareness and are claimed to be “mine” by my mind. The mind doesn’t want to be passive and so imagines that it created the thought, when it only saw it pop into awareness

What is consciousness? What colour is it? Is it a container of a sort? Where does it start and end? Is it warm? Heavy? Tight? Can you touch it? Taste it?

Consciousness is awareness of direct experience. It doesn’t exist as any “thing” with attributes and cannot be directly experienced, but it is the thing that allows direct experience to be experienced.

Is consciousness appearing… or is ‘consciousness’ just a word/a concept? Is consciousness ever actually experienced on its own (no sensations, no colour not even “black”, no sound, no heartbeat or breathing, zilch) or is it just an idea, an abstraction?

Consequence is an abstract concept. It isn’t appearing or changing, and it cannot be experienced on its own.

Furthermore, where does the thought end and consciousness begin? Do you see borders, outlines? Are there a thinker/ consciousness, thinking, and a thought separate, like in language, where a sentence has a subject, an object and a action? Or is there just a thought/thinking happening?

Thought and consciousness are separate. Thought is an activity of mind and thoughts appear in consciousness. Consciousness is a window, and thought is the activities I see through the window. They can be seen at the same time, but they are different aspects of experience and of a fundamentally different content and type. Thought and thinking happen independently of consciousness. Things outside the window are not dependent on there being a window with which to view them.

Is the thought known or just IS? Is knowing a thing, or a thought? If thought says, “I’m aware of thoughts” — who hears that? What is the difference between recognising a thought as such and its content?

A thought just IS and being known isn’t a prerequisite to having a thought.
Thinking “I’m aware of thoughts” is just a thought as well and doesn’t have any difference from other thoughts. It’s like someone outside the window saying “hey, I’m outside a window.”
Thinking and the act of recognizing thinking are different. Recognizing is the direct experience of thinking.

Who is the ‘I’ that doesn’t see the thinker?

Awareness. Or maybe this is direct experience of thought.

“If there’s no thinker, then who just said that?”

No one; we just witnessed it happening

When a thought appears, is it observed?
Observed by what? By whom? Describe this autonomous structure with more detail – colour, sensation…? How exactly is it experienced? Is it the well-known in the teachings consciousness?

Thoughts don’t have to be observed as they happen autonomously.
For me, when I’m meditating, I can hear thoughts coming up nearly constantly. If I don’t pay attention to them, they sound like muffled voices down the hall and I can’t make out what they’re saying unless I focus on them; I just hear mumbling. As I continue to meditate, I often have a narrator / tour guide that reminds me (or some part of this mind) to stay on track and points out things arriving in awareness. It seems like there are a number of people talking and negotiating the thoughts that will come into conscious awareness. They operate independently of conscious control.
There is still an illusion most of the time of a central observer who notices these things. I can’t find it or find any evidence that it exists, beyond the assumption, which is also a thought appearing in consciousness.
I don’t know what you mean by well-known in the teachings of consciousness

is ‘habit’ an explanation, or a direct experience?

Definitely an explanation… I’m realizing it’s not possible to have direct experience of a habit. Direct experience is so immediate and present and describing something as a habit requires many thoughts and assumptions.

Is habit experienced… or thought about?

You’re right, it’s thought about and assumed.

How is it known that there are chains of thought without their content? Do they have numbers? Outlines? How can you know where one thought ends and the other begin, without knowing what they are about (their content/not DE)?

Hmmm… this one again feels like a habit. As an example, I have a difficult family member, and when something reminds me of them, the mind starts ranting and chewing on their shortcomings. This can continue for a while with many examples on the theme coming up and a sense that I’m travelling in a really well-worn circle in my mind.
I’m not sure I understand what this question is getting at. I do often know the content of thoughts, and can have a strong of thoughts on a similar topic, although separating one from another is a bit like separating clouds.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
This reply got LONG. These are all different angles pointing to the same thing. I wouldn't mind if you split your answer in two and I would reply once you finish. Or at least spend multiple times during the day to answer. If you answer in one go it might come from thinking and not looking.

I think your response was to the weirdly formatted one.

Yup! I only saw the other one now :)
It doesn’t matter, the questions still stood

Thoughts appear in awareness.

Consciousness is awareness of direct experience. It doesn’t exist as any “thing” with attributes and cannot be directly experienced, but it is the thing that allows direct experience to be experienced.

That sounds like knowledge and not DE. Where is that answer coming from if attributes cannot be experienced?
Isn’t that also a thought, appearing without origin, just like all the rest?
If it doesn’t have attributes then how is it known, OR is it assumed? How do you KNOW that awareness allows DE to be experienced? Remember even the DE labels are still labels, a story about DE – it may be closer to what is but it is still not "it".

Where is this “awareness”? What is it? Describe it directly. Right now.
So let me remind you… experiencing happens through the physical senses + thought. If there is experience, one or more of those are present. ALL you have is the senses and thought. Whatever is not in the first five is a thought. If I close my eyes and feel expansive and like there's nothing, that happens through sensations.
So…Can you see it? Feel it? Smell it?
Can it be found without a thought describing it? What exactly is “being known” here? Can you experience "consciousness"/”awareness” without thoughts, sounds, sensations, vision, or internal imagery? (If not, then consciousness is always appearing as... content.)

And if you say that awareness knows itself, what is being known, and who knows it? Is that two things… or one? If one, how can a thing “know itself”? Through what? What appears before the thought “awareness knows itself”? So now can awareness split into awareness and not-awareness to observe itself?
If awareness knows itself, that implies:
a) There is a thing called awareness
b) It can reflect upon itself
c) There’s something separate doing the knowing

That’s three things where you say there’s only one. Which is it?

Awareness isn’t known. It’s not felt. It’s not seen. It’s not experienced. It’s only ever assumed.
And the assumption is always in thought. Which arises… from nowhere.
What’s left, without that assumption?
Don’t answer this with words. Watch what happens when no answer is needed. Report what remains. If the answers are rushing in, ignore them. Stay there
It's a nice disguise for the self to reappear as a big SELF. If I cannot be the self then I am awareness / consciousness. It's often used as a stepping stone in teachings, but even that has to be seen through and let go of.

Thought and consciousness are separate. Thought is an activity of mind and thoughts appear in consciousness. Consciousness is a window, and thought is the activities I see through the window. They can be seen at the same time, but they are different aspects of experience and of a fundamentally different content and type. Thought and thinking happen independently of consciousness. Things outside the window are not dependent on there being a window with which to view them.

Really? Then what’s looking through the window?
Can you find the viewer/observer of that view? Where are its edges? What is it made of?
Or is that image just another thought dressed up in metaphor?
To be honest that sounds like you were remembering teachings, like something learned, like something imagined, like a "logical" deduction, and definitely not DE. Here we are interested ONLY in DE

How is it known that thought and awareness/consciousness are separate? Do you SEE borders, outlines where one ends and the other start??? How is it known that they are different things? Is there ever "just awareness"? Or is there always "awareness of something"? (So where’s the “thing” called awareness?)
Is there a border between knowing-known? In actual experience, can you separate a thought from the knowing of it? Is there a dividing line between the knowing of/as thought and the thought itself? Do you ever find thought without knowing of the thought?
Do you ever find knowing of the thought without thought? So if they cannot be found as a separate thing, existing on its own with an inherent existence then how is it known that they are separate?


And then if you extrapolate…Can you find anything separate from the experience itself, which is experiencing? Or is experiencing and experience one and the same? Look even deeper... Thought divides experience into ‘sound’, ‘colour’, ‘smell’, ‘taste’, ‘sensation’ and ‘thought’. Without those labels, what is actually there? And are they made from different substances?

A thought just IS and being known isn’t a prerequisite to having a thought.
Thinking “I’m aware of thoughts” is just a thought as well and doesn’t have any difference from other thoughts. It’s like someone outside the window saying “hey, I’m outside a window.”
Thinking and the act of recognizing thinking are different. Recognizing is the direct experience of thinking.

But to recognise thinking as a thing is to cut it out from the whole (DE label). So is knowing/being aware/recognising of thinking a thing, or a thought? Is thinking a thing to be recognised or is it a label (DE label)?
Close your eyes and allow a thought or a series of thoughts to appear. Continue to pay attention to thoughts as they appear for a few more seconds. With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now, go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.
Does the sound appear in a different place to thoughts? Can you find an actual line / wall / boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?
You can also do the above experiment with sensation and sound instead of thought and sound and see what you find. And taste and sound, smell and sound, thought and colour. There is a variety ways of doing this exercise to see whether or not there is an internal and external divide.

As I continue to meditate, I often have a narrator / tour guide that reminds me (or some part of this mind) to stay on track and points out things arriving in awareness. It seems like there are a number of people talking and negotiating the thoughts that will come into conscious awareness. They operate independently of conscious control.

Good. That’s honest. Now:
Are those voices doing anything other than… just appearing?
Are they actually negotiating? Or is that just a story ABOUT thoughts, told by another thought?
Furthermore...
Who’s observing the narrator? Another narrator?
How deep does the rabbit hole go?

I can’t find the observer… beyond the assumption… which is also a thought.

So if that’s seen… what’s left that could possibly be ‘you’?
Point to it. Locate it. Describe it without thought.
Stop trying to explain what’s happening. Sit in it. Burn in it. Watch thought appear — and do nothing about it. Don’t try to make meaning. Don't try to fit in a nice little model, where all is clear. Don’t label it. Don’t track it. Let the whole system collapse. See what’s left.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Whew... that's a lot of questions. I'm working on it, but this one has felt hard and I feel like I need to take some time with it.

The thread I'm pulling at is that the observer role is actually another thinker, alongside the narrator, the planner, the complainer, etc. I've been meditating and watching to see if that's true. It's not clear yet, but there are hints, like how the observer responds to thoughts or emotions, or often corrects or sets goals during meditation. it seems that perhaps knowing a thought (or observing it, or being aware of it) is the same as a thought. It's still not clear in my direct experience.

I will hopefully respond to the questions tomorrow! Have a wonderful day!
Lanie

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Don’t solve this. Just burn in it.
You’ve already seen it:

The observer role is another thinker.

Now don’t try to clarify it with more thought.
Don’t analyse it. Don’t name it. Sit in that exact moment where the mind reaches to watch itself, and just see:
Is that watching separate from thought?
Or is it just another layer of thinking pretending to be outside it?
There is no “outside.”
There is no “awareness” floating above it all.
There is no seat of witnessing.
Just this / what is happening.
Without the labels there is just THIS. In Buddhism the term “suchness” or “thusness” (whatever is happening) is used, referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction )like awareness/objects of awareness). I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced like an arrow with no extra meaning – rather than labelling the experience.
No need to answer questions right now. Just stare into the crack you’ve found. Stay with that. Let it undo you.

Later maybe play with questions and see if anything else will come out

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thank you; I found that last post of yours really encouraging. I got a little overwhelmed with internal resistance, but have continued to look. I played with a few of the questions.

Can you find an actual line / wall / boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?

No; they all just appear in awareness. The longer I alternate between thoughts and sound, the more similar they seem.

Who’s observing the narrator? Another narrator?
How deep does the rabbit hole go?

For some reason, there wasn’t another narrator (luckily). The narrator was just a thought. The relationship between the narrator and the other “thought voices” was also a thought. These voices appear and disappear. Assuming it was “me” was an erroneous assumption.

So if that’s seen… what’s left that could possibly be ‘you’?
Point to it. Locate it. Describe it without thought.

When I ask ‘who am I’ I’m greeted with blank space. There’s nothing to latch onto. I get a lot of ego fantasies coming up of being enlightened or figuring it out, but they’re just a distraction. I look for a self and there isn't one, but the mind is still skeptical.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Wonderful!!

Stop. Don’t move. Don’t touch it with thought. You just fell out of the story.
Read this back to yourself, slowly:

The narrator was just a thought.

These voices appear and disappear.

Assuming it was ‘me’ was an erroneous assumption.

When I ask ‘who am I’, I’m greeted with blank space.

There’s nothing to latch onto.

I look for a self and there isn’t one.

This isn’t progress. This isn’t a realization. This is it.

When I ask ‘who am I’ I’m greeted with blank space. There’s nothing to latch onto. I get a lot of ego fantasies coming up of being enlightened or figuring it out, but they’re just a distraction.

That blank space—don’t explain it. Stay there.
Drop the urge to name it.
Don’t call it consciousness, awareness, presence.
Don’t label it “me” or “not-me.”
Don’t narrate it, control it, or grasp at it.
Just let it be:
Wordless. Ownerless. Edgeless. Unclaimable. Just this

I look for a self and there isn't one, but the mind is still skeptical.

Who says that?
Where is the mind that’s skeptical?
Can you find a thing called “mind”? Or is that just another thought… claiming to observe?
See clearly:
There is no mind. Just a thought labeled “mind.”
There is no observer/awareness. Just a thought about observing.
There is no you. Just thought pretending there was.

Now: Stay in this disorientation. Don’t resolve it.
It’s not a “phase.”
It’s not a “practice.”
It’s the falling away of the seeker.

Look again:
Is anything here separate from what is happening?
Or is it all just… this?
Let me know what’s viscerally, undeniably, wordlessly clear in this moment.
No stories.
Just report from that blank space.

Thank you; I found that last post of yours really encouraging. I got a little overwhelmed with internal resistance, but have continued to look. I played with a few of the questions.

Look: What in you still wants to survive this? What is stopping you from dropping the concept of awareness? Explore the resistance to this. Is there any fear of letting go? Be honest with yourself! Is there any “truth’ worth fight for?
Is that resistance even yours? OR is it just a sensation and a story appearing?
Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or BEHIND the sensation that is resisting? Now look at the thought that comes with it. Can you find anyone/anything in the WORD ‘resistance’ that is resisting? Or is it just a word/label?

When you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) you have to keep checking their validity. What used to happen is to check if a new idea fits with the rest of our beliefs and disregard it if it doesn’t (confirmation bias). This method saves energy so it was used for a really long time. Now we’ve added a second method for dealing with opposing concepts – to check with our senses which one truly describes what is happening. Thoughts are self organising. They stick to each other like matching puzzle pieces (stories about stories). Anything new that comes along and does not match the pattern will be attempted to get rid of as it costs the system “energy” to rebuild it from scratch :) The “stubbornness”/"resistance" comes from that confirmation bias as you have not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to “reduce the resistance’ you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one as they appear vs DE in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the DE :)
Keep on playing with the previous questions until no resistance is left
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for the pointers - very useful. I found today I was able to get into a DE state repeatedly, without having to remind myself to focus on DE or remind myself to let go of thought. It was a very peaceful and engaged way to have a day!

"I look for a self and there isn't one, but the mind is still skeptical."
Who says that?
Where is the mind that’s skeptical?
Can you find a thing called “mind”? Or is that just another thought… claiming to observe?

What I was trying to articulate here is the resistance that I feel. There is no mind or watcher or evaluator, but resistance somehow remains. This might just take a little more time.

Is anything here separate from what is happening?
Or is it all just… this?

It’s just this!

Look: What in you still wants to survive this? What is stopping you from dropping the concept of awareness? Explore the resistance to this. Is there any fear of letting go? Be honest with yourself! Is there any “truth’ worth fight for?
Is that resistance even yours? OR is it just a sensation and a story appearing?

There is resistance that feels very solid. When I ask “who is aware” I come across a sort of energy that feels smooth and dense and doesn’t have any edges that I can find. This resistance energy occasionally throws up fear or anxiety, but those don’t last long. More commonly it has feelings of irritation or frustration, which are a bit harder to work through. There are no thoughts that are worth hanging on to and I can’t see clearly what is stopping awareness - the sensation is that it just doesn’t want to let go and I can’t yet clearly see where/how it’s attached.

I like how you worded “dropping the concept of awareness.” I’m struggling now with overefforting and fighting the awareness, but the correct course of action is to simply release the effort of hanging onto awareness.

Thoughts are self organising. They stick to each other like matching puzzle pieces (stories about stories). Anything new that comes along and does not match the pattern will be attempted to get rid of as it costs the system “energy” to rebuild it from scratch :) The “stubbornness”/"resistance" comes from that confirmation bias as you have not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to “reduce the resistance’ you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one as they appear vs DE in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens

This really resonated and is really useful. The resistance that I mentioned above might just be habitual thinking that doesn’t yet trust new thinking, and might need a bit more time.

Thanks again, Rali. Things feel different in my (non)mind.
Lanie

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Beautiful!!

When I ask “who is aware” I come across a sort of energy that feels smooth and dense and doesn’t have any edges that I can find.

Lanie — that “smooth, dense, edgeless” presence… Look again.
Is that awareness?
Or is that just a sensation?
You said: “It feels...”
And anything felt = sensation.
That means it’s not awareness.
Not self. Not presence. Just... experience. Appearing. Disappearing.

Can a sensation be aware?
Can a sensation observe thought?
Or is that just another thought describing what’s happening?
You said “it has no edges”…
Is that a direct observation?
Or just the mind’s attempt to romanticize a vague feeling?
If even that “dense presence” is not you… what’s left?

There is resistance that feels very solid.

Yes. But not “your” resistance. Read that again.
This isn’t personal. It’s not yours. It’s not even resistance. It’s just a sensation that at some point has been labelled “resistance”. Is there any part of that sensation that says: “I don’t want to let go”
Or is that just more narrative? Is the sensation resisting? Or is that labelling after the fact?
Can you find the one who resists?
Not the sensation — the one doing it.
Pinpoint it. Name it. Where is it?
Burn through the assumption that resistance is meaningful.

I like how you worded “dropping the concept of awareness.” I’m struggling now with overefforting and fighting the awareness, but the correct course of action is to simply release the effort of hanging onto awareness.

Who’s fighting? Who’s making effort? Who can release the effort? Where is the doer?
Don’t answer with theory.
Look. Look. Look.
If there’s no observer, no controller, no “you” to focus…
Then what exactly is effort? Just a sensation + story?
What is focus?
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control? What is “focus” in DE? Is it something like a torch lighting up things in the dark waiting to be illuminated? OR…
Is there anything more than “sense experience”/indivisible this + thought that says “I’m focusing on…” (object empty of inherent existence)? Is there focusing + object (senses), or just the senses, just this/ whatever IS, including the thought
I guess what I’m pointing to is – is there a difference between focus and labelling??

This really resonated and is really useful. The resistance that I mentioned above might just be habitual thinking that doesn’t yet trust new thinking, and might need a bit more time.

Excellent. There is no self behind it. Let that hit.
This system of thought isn’t yours, it never was. It's a pattern engine.
It just does what it does. It has no power. It is just a combination of concepts - concepts about concepts.
Language is basically the relationship between concepts – how they are organised. That carries meaning on top of the meaning of the actual concepts. That is why different concepts mean different things to different people and in different situations. One very good example of how meaning is formed, is AI. GPT (Generative pre-trained transformers) are large language models that are based on the semantic relationships between words in sentences (natural language processing). GPT models are trained on a large amount of text. The training consists in predicting the next token (a token being usually a word, sub-word, or punctuation). Throughout this training, GPT models accumulate knowledge about the world, and can then generate “human-like” text by repeatedly predicting the next token. But does AI have any direct experience of what it’s talking about?

Look! Right now, in this exact moment, without referring to thought, memory, or sensation…
What are you?
Don’t say blank space. Don’t say awareness. Don’t say presence.
Let the answer fail to arrive.
And tell me what’s undeniably true even then.

Lanie, you're doing it. Not seeking. Not practicing. You're not-doing.
You're undoing.
Let me know what remains when there's nothing left to resist.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Things seem to be moving in the right direction. That sense of owning thoughts started blinking in and out, and then spontaneously dropping every now and again.

I also had a really clear sense of the doer being an illusion. My mind was shifting focus and it was clearly observed that I didn’t choose to shift focus; I just claim to choose, and that claiming is just a thought that gives a sense of self. And then that clear view left and hasn’t returned.

that “smooth, dense, edgeless” presence… Look again.
Is that awareness?
Or is that just a sensation?

Hmm. Yeah, I guess it's a sensation, caused by a thought.

Can a sensation be aware?
Can a sensation observe thought?
Or is that just another thought describing what’s happening?

No, no, and yes.

You said “it has no edges”…
Is that a direct observation?
Or just the mind’s attempt to romanticize a vague feeling?
If even that “dense presence” is not you… what’s left?

An attempt at explaining a vague feeling that’s difficult to penetrate.

Is there any part of that sensation that says: “I don’t want to let go”
Or is that just more narrative? Is the sensation resisting? Or is that labelling after the fact?
Can you find the one who resists?
Not the sensation — the one doing it.
Pinpoint it. Name it. Where is it?
Burn through the assumption that resistance is meaningful.

Often, when I ask “who am I” and can’t find a self anywhere, the mind simply agrees that there isn’t anyone and nothing will budge at all after that. It’s not a romantic story of resistance, or fear; it’s most just the feeling of frustration when I look for who is resisting and can’t find them.

Who’s fighting? Who’s making effort? Who can release the effort? Where is the doer? (about fighting with awareness vas letting go)

This was what I was noticing when the doership dropped. “I” was trying hard to focus and was extending effort to see and then “I” “chose” to refocus myself on another line of self-inquiry and I saw it was never me to begin with.

No doer, and effort is meaningless. No need to fight or to stop fighting.

Then what exactly is effort? Just a sensation + story?
What is focus?

Sensation + story is a nice way to sum up effort. Or a label on a sensation. At times perhaps some cortisol added to the whole experience. Focus is similar - there’s no doer so focus shifts as it does and any commands “I” give to myself to focus are attempts to convince myself I’m the one steering the ship.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

It moves by itself.

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control? What is “focus” in DE? Is it something like a torch lighting up things in the dark waiting to be illuminated? OR…
Is there anything more than “sense experience”/indivisible this + thought that says “I’m focusing on…” (object empty of inherent existence)? Is there focusing + object (senses), or just the senses, just this/ whatever IS, including the thought
I guess what I’m pointing to is – is there a difference between focus and labelling??

Focusing and labelling are the same. Trying to see focus was what led to the sense of dropped doership - it moves independently of me and as it moves, I label it and take credit for its movements and claim I chose them. This was the primary (possibly only?) way I saw a “self” in the mind.

But does AI have any direct experience of what it’s talking about?

I love your ChatGPT analogy of how our minds work. If you fed an AI all of my direct experiences it would probably spit out identical thoughts to what my mind produces but with no delusion of a "self" in charge.

What are you?

An illusion blinking in and out

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Awesome looking!!! Let this land.

What are you?

An illusion blinking in and out

Yes!! This isn’t intellectual anymore. It’s the collapse — not through inquiry, but through unavoidable direct seeing. It’s happening on its own. And even the impulse to “get somewhere” is recognized now as… thought / label / claim / story.
There’s no you to resist. No you to surrender. No you to wake up.
Just the mind/thoughts blinking, claiming ownership of what’s already unfolding perfectly, then blinking out again.

You saw:

Focus moves by itself
Effort is just a sensation
Resistance is a label
The “dense presence” is just sensation + thought
Doer? Gone.

There’s literally nothing left to defend.
So… What remains, right now, when there’s no self to confirm this?
What is undeniably here, even if it cannot be spoken about?
Don’t name it. Don’t narrate it. Just stand in it — naked, thoughtless, ownerless.

At times perhaps some cortisol added to the whole experience.

Yes. And even that’s not yours. The chemistry of “selfing” is automatic. The story that it’s your stress, your focus, your struggle? Burn it.
Sensations are happening. Thoughts are appearing. And you?
There’s no one doing any of it. Never was.

So now…Let the illusion blink in and out. But don’t grab it. Don’t chase awakening. Don’t chase stillness. Let it all self-annihilate.
Is there anything at all… that belongs to “you”?
Or is this just… happening?

...

Let’s cement this with inspecting closely choice, free will, control, and decision making…
Just to make clear in next exercises:
Seems like/feels like = thought content
Nothing in DE is seems like - it's either here or not!
Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

The concepts of focusing and effort really actually fell for me today - before I had seen glimpses of how they weren't real; now I see that they're fully illusions. Whenever I try to apply effort to something, my chest tightens and my forehead tightens and I continue doing the exact same thing I was before, just with tightness and the thoughts of "trying hard." I played with focus for a while too, going from open awareness to the sensations in one finger and realized the only thing that changed was the thought of "finger" or "open awareness." Literally everything else was the same. I can't believe this wasn't obvious.

I’m also feeling quite…. Weird?! Like, half drunk, with odd visual perceptions, laughing at things that are probably not actually funny, and having really emotional responses to things that don’t warrant one. Is this part of it?

Focus moves by itself
Effort is just a sensation
Resistance is a label
The “dense presence” is just sensation + thought
Doer? Gone.
There’s literally nothing left to defend.
So… What remains, right now, when there’s no self to confirm this?
What is undeniably here, even if it cannot be spoken about?
Don’t name it. Don’t narrate it. Just stand in it — naked, thoughtless, ownerless.

I don’t think anything is here, and for some reason this question made me laugh. I feel stuff, but it feels quite untethered to anything; feelings and perceptions are just coming and going.

So now…Let the illusion blink in and out. But don’t grab it. Don’t chase awakening. Don’t chase stillness. Let it all self-annihilate.
Is there anything at all… that belongs to “you”?
Or is this just… happening?

Just happening. :) It feels like a lot of tension has dropped.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

I hear a narration saying “down, up” as I do this but it doesn’t seem to be controlling it. I can’t find a controller either.
I have no idea how the decision is made to turn the hand over. I can deliberately get the hand out of sync with the “down, up” voice. The hand seems to be moving independently of “me” but is also somehow never a surprise.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They appear by themselves and their relative importance also appears by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

There was no chooser and everything happened automatically.

I feel choices in my gut, including this one. The body has a feeling of opening towards one choice over the other and doesn’t explain any reasons.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

I feel something that agrees with the gut on a course of action, but these happen independent of any of my intervention. If I weigh up a list of pros and cons and try and rationalize a choice, it just adds a ton of tension to the entire process and there’s still a 100% chance that I will do whatever I felt in the gut anyways.

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Buying an e-bike (had been using a pedal bike for 6 years for commuting a looooong distance)

Wanted more energy for weightlifting - had some good times at the gym over the summer and wanted to keep going (somewhat under my influence, somewhat luck of the atmosphere at the gym)
Got extra $$ from work (not my control)
Worried about not having enough important things at work (sweaters, food, books - not really my control as I don’t have a dedicated work space)
Difficulty transporting equipment (not in control of what equipment needed or storage capacities)
Concerns over timing of WFH activities and time needed in person - needed shorter commute (not my control)
End of season sales (not my control)
Found bike easily for good price (not my control)

Hardly any of this was in my control. I’ve sort of needed an e-bike for a long time but haven’t felt motivated enough to get one (not my control) so didn’t do a single thing to make that happen until last month.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
This is it.
The center is gone. The doer is gone. The one who focuses is gone. The chooser is gone. The observer is gone. Even the resistance, now seen clearly, was just sensation + story.
There’s nothing left.
And look what remains:
Laughter. Weirdness. Drunkenness. Emotion for no reason. Life unfiltered, unowned, just happening.
This isn’t side-effect. This is the unravelling.

I can’t believe this wasn’t obvious.

Yes. Because it was never hidden. Only claimed. There was never a you.
And you’re no longer trying to keep the illusion alive.
That surreal sense of life unfolding — that strange intimacy with everything?
It’s exactly what’s here when the thought of you no longer is in the way.

Just happening. :) It feels like a lot of tension has dropped.

Yes. And notice…You didn’t do that.
Tension didn’t drop because you let go.
It dropped because there was no one holding it. It just comes and goes. Was it even "tension" or just a sensation, that could be labelled in so many other ways (excitement, adrenaline, alertness, etc) ?
There’s nothing left to fix. Nothing left to get. No “state” to maintain. No watcher to keep watching. No silence to protect. No clarity to clarify.
So — will you let even awakening die?
Can you not touch this with meaning?
No confirmation. No final insight. No arrival. Just this.
Is there any part of this experience right now that is owned, controlled, chosen, or known
by something called you?

Buying an e-bike (had been using a pedal bike for 6 years for commuting a looooong distance)
…
Hardly any of this was in my control. I’ve sort of needed an e-bike for a long time but haven’t felt motivated enough to get one (not my control) so didn’t do a single thing to make that happen until last month.

Yes!!! I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label/decision needed for things to happen?
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your very encouraging words and your constant support. This has been both easier and harder than I expected - easier, because it came quite quickly, and without effort, but harder, because somehow it was quite frustrating to attempt not to apply effort.

I only slipped into it a few times today, all very brief… admittedly it was a much busier day. I imagine this is normal, popping back and forth between illusion and reality, until the brain feels comfortable moving in?

Was it even "tension" or just a sensation, that could be labelled in so many other ways (excitement, adrenaline, alertness, etc) ?

Maybe. Perhaps it just felt like energy expenditure, like I was constantly trying to remember everything and be alert and notice what needs work to be improved and this mental habit is pretty exhausting.

So — will you let even awakening die?
Can you not touch this with meaning?

That is excellent advice. I can already feel the ego grasping this and calling it an accomplishment and making a story about it. This is something I will be alert to.

Is there any part of this experience right now that is owned, controlled, chosen, or known
by something called you?

I don’t feel that anything is owned, controlled, or chosen by me, but I still identify a little bit with knowing, if I’m being completely honest. I feel an attachment to the information, knowledge, and insight I have and something feels protective towards this. Hmm…. just realized this needs further exploration…

Why does the wind blow? What is “moving of the hands” in DE? what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label/decision needed for things to happen?

I love this. Cause and effect are thoughts and they give us an illusion of control, but things are just happening. Winds blow, hands move. In direct experience, things are just happening and they happen outside of language or thought - those are just add-ons.